Crank no start - Not Immobilizer - Fuse Box (1 Viewer)

[drjman]

Hey all,
I've been experiencing some random crank no start (3-4+ turns of the key to get started) and occasional shut offs while driving. While it drives, and after starting, there are no issues and it runs fine. I did notice it really only happens when i have around a 1/4 tank of fuel or less. If I keep the gas level above that, the issue goes away. No CEL and it's definitely not the immobilizer issue (had that and have the EFI bypass in place).

This may sound out there, but can the pre-filter on the fuel pump get clogged? Like maybe the bottom of the filter bag is clogged so it's only an issue when low on gas? Once it starts though, it runs fine, so i don't think it's the pump itself.

It definitely seems like a fuel issue. Just wondering if anyone else has had these symptoms before.

I've done a lot of little work on it lately, so most maintenance parts are new(ish).

-New starter
-Timing belt done
-newish fuel filter
-Injectors cleaned
-MAF cleaned
-new alternator

All of that within 6 months.

 

[CLEcruiser]

Is the pump original? I've never heard of the mesh getting clogged, most people who replace the pump after many years and miles comment that the mesh looks brand new.

 

[drjman]

I have a very detailed service history on this rig from the PO. No sign of a fuel pump replacement.

Besides happening only when low (not empty) on fuel, the only other "somewhat common" denominator is it's usually the first start of the day. But that's not exclusive, it does happen sometimes after quick runs to a local store or something.

Once it's running, there are no other signs of anything wrong.

 

[89BIGBLUE]

Any fuel smell anywhere?
Is it sucking any air you think?
Is it time for a new fuel cap?
Just thinking at it with you...

 

[YardPig]

Your soon to be stranded. Replace the pump. The brushes are worn out. You can have someone bang on the tank to confirm while you turn the key. A rookie can perform fuel pump replacement operation in less than an hour by removing the second row seat and peeling the carpet back.

 

[drjman]

Any fuel smell anywhere?
Is it sucking any air you think?
Is it time for a new fuel cap?
Just thinking at it with you...

No fuel smell and air filter is clean. Fuel cap seems ok to me.

One thing that coincided with the issue on a couple attempts is pressure build up in the fuel tank. I would try starting a couple times and remembered the vapor lock issue and removed the fuel cap. There was definitely air/vapor escape on a couple tries, but not always. I'm not sure if that indicates a good or bad fuel cap.

It's never stranded me when this happens. It just takes a bunch of times turning over and the assist from the gas pedal on start up (not sure if that is helping or not).

 

[drjman]

Your soon to be stranded. Replace the pump. The brushes are worn out. You can have someone bang on the tank to confirm while you turn the key. A rookie can perform fuel pump replacement operation in less than an hour by removing the second row seat and peeling the carpet back.

Even though once started and with a full tank it operates normally? No hesitation or anything once going.

It's probably one of the last OE pieces of replaceable parts i have left. haha . Might as well i guess.

After replacing the starter, this should be a breeze!

 

[YardPig]

Once the pump is spinning it has no resistance and will usually continue along. Resistance builds heat. Next time have someone bang on the tank while someone turns it over, I'm sure it will fire right up.
You don't mention your mileage, but it's time...

 

[drjman]

Once the pump is spinning it has no resistance and will usually continue along. Resistance builds heat. Next time have someone bang on the tank while someone turns it over, I'm sure it will fire right up.
You don't mention your mileage, but it's time...

Mileage is 275k. Parts ordered. Thanks!

 

[YardPig]

Denso pump & Strainer - 9500107
Or...
Denso pump & Strainer - 9500110
Or...
Denso Pump BARE - 9510003, MUST include Denso Strainer 9520011 or 9520006

Mine came 'Made In Japan' on the box.

Manufacturer
OE Part Number
Manufacturer
OE Part Number
LEXUS OE
2322170360
LEXUS OE
23221-50090
LEXUS OE
2322146120
LEXUS OE
2322166040
TOYOTA OE
2322166040
TOYOTA OE
232210F010
TOYOTA OE
2322146070
TOYOTA OE
23221-50060

 

[drjman]

Thanks! 9500107 is what i ordered and a gasket. ($128 total)

Rock Auto is pretty great for these types of parts. I think it was $300 or so on one of those dime a dozen Toyota parts sites.

 

[YardPig]

Mileage is 275k. Parts ordered. Thanks!

Smart man, we both know it will quit all together at the worst time possible!

 

[YardPig]

Thanks! 9500107 is what i ordered and a gasket. ($128 total)

Rock Auto is pretty great for these types of parts. I think it was $300 or so on one of those dime a dozen Toyota parts sites.

I would also be sure to order the fuel filter mounted under the hood. When a fuel pump fails it loads up trash from the pump downstream. Do it all now before it ends up in your clean injectors!

 

[drjman]

Replaced the fuel pump and filter. Fired up instantly.
When it started up first try before the new pump, it took an extra second to start. Now with the new pump, it's a noticeable difference!

Here's the new next to the old pump. Taking out the seats was the biggest pain. 8mm socket for the pump cover screws and it was out.

old and new fuel pumps

• drjman
• Dec 20, 2018

 

[drjman]

so the same symptoms happened again, with under a 1/4 tank (no fuel light). Took maybe 8-10 turnovers and then it started.

Another time it started up but died backing out of the driveway. Took 4-5 turnovers to start it back up. It appears the new fuel pump and filter did not fix the issue. One less potential culprit though!

 

[drjman]

bump and new symptoms.

With a full fuel tank now, it took about 6 key turns to start it up. Once started, it drives fine. Could this be vacuum related? Fuel lines? I'm at a loss. So far, it has ALWAYS started up eventually. I'm just scared of getting stranded at this point. I don't understand how it can be so hard to start randomly and then drive like nothing is wrong.

 

[medtro]

I know of a 99 LC owner with similar problem. It had longer crank time and started. It refused to start 4 months later, and threw P0116 code indicating a temperature sensor (to ECU) fault. He replaced the sensor and that fixed the problem. You may want to check the resistance of the temperature sensor. There is also a trouble shooting section in the FSM showing what to check for starting issue.

 

[drjman]

I went through most of the troubleshooting sections of the FSM. My "problem" is that it doesn't throw any codes. I have the code reader in my rig for when it doesn't start properly. In the off chance it throws a code then, i'll be able to catch it (hopefully). My assumption, is that if it did throw a code, it wouldn't be cleared on its own after a week...

2/3 tank of gas so far and mostly just trips taking the kids to school and picking up. No issues, and it's been colder in the mornings...high 40s (lol, I live in So Cal!).

 

[drjman]

Happened again today.

1. Cold start: started up fine, drove for 10 minutes and then shopped for 10 minutes
2. Turned on after 5 key turns, but immediately died. 2 more key turns and it died again. another key turn and it stayed on.
3. drove for 7 minutes, shopped for 10 and it didn't start again
4. Started at 3 turns but died immediately. 6th turn and it stayed on and drove it home.
5. At home, turned it off for a few minutes and it turned over just fine. Multiple attempts were fine.

More than half a tank of gas in it.

 

[YardPig]

You changed the fuel filter? I would check for over pressurization of the fuel tank or your carbon cannister next.

At this point, are we even sure it is not an Immobilizer issue????

Can you put a fuel pressure gauge on it and feed it up to the windshield for testing purposes?