Performance Diesels.

[User Name]

Hey guys,

Pretty new to the world of diesels and really didn't know where to start searching the net with this one, figured the mob here always have good know-how.

I've recently gotten access to a warehouse space and apart from playing with my own fourby I'm teetering on the edge of building some custom rides, main focus on diesel rods/classics and some fourbies.

I run a Troopy on SVO and ever since delving into this world haven't wanted to look back to petrol/gas/diesel so I'm gaining inspiration of building street rods with high performance diesel motors capable of running SVO/diesel.

Being new to the diesel world and even building performance motors to an extent, I'm wondering what options are out there for motors, especially pre computers (engine electrics are for future).

What are the staple 351C, 302 boss 426 Hemi, 350 Chev's of the diesel world?
I realise there a no real direct comparisons, but if you were talking bored, stroked, TC/SC'd diesels, what would you be looking for?
I remember reading a project on here with a 12HT and the poster claiming they could be stroked to 4.8, not sure if anything ever came of it, I've seen some conversions done with 6.5L V8 Chev's as well which I have starting researching as well.

I don't expect any of this to be easy, but surely there are some other diesel heads out there like myself interested in numbers with some knowledge?

Cheers guys.

 

[77cruiser77]

This I find interesting seeing how I am in the process of collecting my parts to begin a turbo and intercooler install into my 1HZ. At the same time I'm also exploring WVO for my vehicle too.

The 12HT from what I have heard can go up to 5L. This does require a lot of money to do however. Problem with that engine is it was produced for a short period, (1985-1990?), parts are both hard to get and expensive, and is direct injection which from my understanding isn't preferred. It is a brilliant engine with timing gears instead of belts and chains, inline pump, and direct injection.

A lot of people play with the 3B because even though they are dated they are tough and plentiful. They are also indirect injection and most have an inline pump instead of a rotary one. They are 4 cylinder and 3.4L. The direct injection turbo version of this engine is the 13BT.

There is the 2H also which is the non turbo indirect injection version of the 12HT. If you want performance I have read its not the best engine due to piston cooling.

The engines people are beginning to really play with now are the ones produced post 1990. There is the 1HZ, a 4.2L inline six indirect injection diesel engine with a rotary pump. Production on this engine started in 1990 and the last one made would have been yesterday, assuming it was a work day, and the next one will be made on the following work day until something better comes along. This would be an excellent candidate to me seeing the availability of parts on a global scale including Canada and US, and information due to it being made for nearly 25 years with only minor changes being made.

There is a turbocharged direct injection version of the 1HZ which is the 1HD-T. A variant of this is the 1HD-FT and also the 1HD-FTE. The FT has 24 valves instead of 12 while the FTE has both electronically controlled injection pump and 24 valves. There are a whole bunch of other differences between the 1HD-T, 1HD-FT, 1HD-FTE but what I mentioned are the major ones. All of these were not produced for nearly as long as the 1HZ which might be something to consider.

In short if you want to play on a budget go 3B and if you want to have some fun go with the 1HZ or 1HD-T (if direct injection is okay).

I cannot comment on non-Toyota engines but Nissan has a diesel TD42 that is very similar to the 1HZ. People seem to get impressive results out of it and depending on you location perhaps something to look at even if only for ideas.

 

[Douglas S]

Direct injection is preferred for a performance diesel (or any diesel really).

 

[o8ko8k]

this is a thought provoking thread. ill chip in 2 cents.

SVO:
1.Viscosity vs temperature curve is different from that of diesel fuel
2. Contains waxes that are not present in Diesel fuel
3. Slightly lower energy content that Diesel fuel
4. NOT made from Petroleum
5. Poses reduced engine reliability (which can be mitigated very well if done correctly)

High injection pressure injection pumps (HIP)
1. Matching viscosity with alternative fuels like SVO is harder than with Low injection pressure pumps
2. Great performance gains and fuel economy can be had from these systems
3. Matching viscosity IS important (see reliability above)

Low injection pressure Injection Pumps (LIP)
1. Has a wider range of allowed fuel viscosities thus, achieving a match with SVO for an engine which was designed for Diesel fuel is easier.
2. Performance and fuel economy take a hit too. combustion isnt as complete, air/fuel charge is more stratified, etc.

SOOOO...

with that stuff on my mind. do you go HIP or LIP with SVO when your goal is performance? 3 more things come to mind

1. How much money are we talking about here?
2. Is this thing going to be raced? (e.g. does the engine need to last longer than 1 or 2 races?)
3. WIll this be someone's daily driver?

As far as a diesel that is the mainstay of diesels, i would look nowhere else than the Cummins for that IMHO. Capable of over 500+hp and 1200lb-fts at 60PSI turbo. They are way easier to get in the states than ANYTHING diesel that Toyota makes. If we are talking racing and your blowing up motors several times a year, don’t EVEN consider import engines like the Toyota ones it would be cruel and unusual punishment for your wallet, and people like me who would want to foster the small population of them that exist here.

If you’re after an eclectic daily driver for a high class client than the Toyota motors would be lots of fun too. and in that case i would pick a LIP diesel becuase i wouldnt want to risk reliability issues from a client who paid lots of money for somthing only to have it clogg up with wax or ruin the injectors etc b/c they really didnt understand what they bought or how to treat it correctly.

<oops> just realized your not from the states!, strike those parts from the record! =D

 

[Tapage]

ok .. grab your fav beverage and start reading ..

https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tec...1365-1hd-t-intake-manifold-modifications.html

https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tec...ial-1hd-t-ft-fuel-pump-mod-tuning-thread.html

https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tec...hz-1hd-t-1hd-ft-airbox-intake-mod-thread.html

and here ..

https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tec...des-1hdt-1hdft-1hdfte-towing-performance.html

all are related to the 1HZ / 1HD-T platform which could be the best one right now for performance non electronic wise ..

If you are into Toy engines you should talk follow this guy ..

http://www.gturbo.com.au/

in Perth

 

[ForealBoreal]

Exactly what Tapage said.

I'll give my honest opinion on stuff.

If you don't mine the electrical pump thing and having a computer the 1hd-fte is the pick.

Throw on a gturbo, intercooler, a big exhaust 3" at a minimum, a chip and a custom airbox and you will be flying. For added fun you could add some meth water injection.

Mechanical injection going from best to other choices.

1hd-ft (24 valve direct injection)
1hd-t (12 valve direct injection)
1hz (12 valve indirect injection non turbo)

The 1hdft can't take an aftermarket plenum due to the injector lines. Still will be crazy if modded properly see below for mods

The 1hd-t and the 1hz you would add a gturbo, intercooler, plenum, pump tweak, airbox and meth injection for fun.

You'll have to add a turbo to a 1hz so it's probably best for you to start with a DI engine for performance purposes. Not to mention they will get better fuel economy and have more reliable power. Not saying the 1hz aren't strong by any means but they will be expensive to mod but cheaper to probably buy outright

Guys do crazy 200rwkw Nissan GQs with an turbo'd IDI diesel. They can take the abuse if your egts are in check. I'll be putting 20lbs into my 1hz sometime this year.

If I could throw any engine in my truck it would be a 1hd-ft. The 1hd-t and ft are performance engines waiting to happen.

Good luck and report back with what you do!

 

[Hulsty]

Since your in Melbourne, Toyota and Nissan diesels are easy to get and not to outrageously priced. Most of the work being done on them is bolt on mods only for decent power and torque. Stockish motors and internals with big turbo's, fuel pumps and manifolds, intercoolers. There are a few 400hp/800Nm+ 1HDT/FT/FTE and TD42 engines getting around.

If you have $$$ to burn and import engine is a good option too, cummins, duramax etc 500HP +, may be worth looking into truck engines too, stuff like Isuzu's are pretty common in Australia.

As previously mentioned if going SVO or alternative fuels I think the preference is indirect injection and inline injector pumps since they are more robust to this fuel setup and do not rely on the fuel for their lubrication. The TD42 can be had with inline fuel pump and is indirect injection.

 

[TheBigBoy]

There are a few 400hp/800Nm+ 1HDT/FT/FTE and TD42 engines getting around.

.

?????

 

[BEE-JAY42]

I will try and give you the shortest answer possible ( I will be giving you the cliff notes which will no doubt excite the "red herring brigade" ready to argue the smallest possible details).

Old (by design) petrol engines like the 351C and 350SBC can produce big reliable power because people make after market components and engine internals (even updated blocks) which make these engines more like modern engines. The same thing doesn't really happen all that much with diesels, with that said most diesels are capable of reasonably safely producing quite a bit more than the standard power output, but this isn't really achieved through improvement in mechanical efficiencies, it is more a result of simply getting more air and fuel in the cylinder to burn (which in turn effects engine life).

The fact is if you want a performance diesel you need to be looking at new engines, there has been a massive jump in power output in the last 10 or so years and nothing old will ever match even stock new engines (not without an insane amount of dollars spent anyway).

If you need proof just compare the best power outputs of something like a 12HT or 6.5L against the stock outputs of the 1VD-FTE or the 6.6L duramax, they are just to far behind to catch up. It is only going to get worse too when you look at the very newest diesels like the BMW N57 for example, it is 3.0l and makes (280 kW; 376 hp)@4000-4400, 740 N·m (550 lb·ft)@2000-3000, I could only imagine how many kidneys you would have to sell to get that from an old engine.

To summaries, old performance diesels don't really exist, the best power you will find is from the newest engines.

 

[mudbludger]

he he here we go

subscribed

 

[TheBigBoy]

I will try and give you the shortest answer possible ( I will be giving you the cliff notes which will no doubt excite the "red herring brigade" ready to argue the smallest possible details).

Old (by design) petrol engines like the 351C and 350SBC can produce big reliable power because people make after market components and engine internals (even updated blocks) which make these engines more like modern engines. The same thing doesn't really happen all that much with diesels, with that said most diesels are capable of reasonably safely producing quite a bit more than the standard power output, but this isn't really achieved through improvement in mechanical efficiencies, it is more a result of simply getting more air and fuel in the cylinder to burn (which in turn effects engine life).

The fact is if you want a performance diesel you need to be looking at new engines, there has been a massive jump in power output in the last 10 or so years and nothing old will ever match even stock new engines (not without an insane amount of dollars spent anyway).

If you need proof just compare the best power outputs of something like a 12HT or 6.5L against the stock outputs of the 1VD-FTE or the 6.6L duramax, they are just to far behind to catch up. It is only going to get worse too when you look at the very newest diesels like the BMW N57 for example, it is 3.0l and makes (280 kW; 376 hp)@4000-4400, 740 N·m (550 lb·ft)@2000-3000, I could only imagine how many kidneys you would have to sell to get that from an old engine.

To summaries, old performance diesels don't really exist, the best power you will find is from the newest engines.

I think the only thing living in the past is you . Not knocking you, your entitled to your opinion. But we have never seen higher numbers of "the old" diesels as you put it. The problem is noone has ever really taken the time to upgrade these engines and do it all propperly. I have a diesel performance business and 300rwhp and 800nm is available from the DT/FT/FTE and so on. Its half the cost of a engine conversion. And you get to retain the factory engine. Complete bolt in kits are already available, just not released yet.

 

[o8ko8k]

might i add that the original post did involve using SVO as the fuel source not dyno Diesel or even bio diesel.

I would advise using the old low injection pressure diesels because i would be scared that 35,000PSI injeciton systems shuving thick waxy goo through them will not live a long reliable lifespan, i dont care how hot you get it, boil it if you like, modern engines have no business running SVO (sure folks have done it, and claimed its all good, but im just sayin I wouldnt, and I certainly wouldnt run SVO in a modern diesel AND try and squeeze more HP/Torque out of it to boot


Modern diesels perform better thats a given in my book.

The issue here in my book is SVO AND performance leaves me with pause and a cautious retreat to OLD TECH Diesel where injection pressures live in a happy 1500psi world. UNLESS... i had a formula 1 type budget and i could do a ground-up build with all the latest modern wonderfuls...

All in all though, a very enlightening and fun thought problem...

 

[mudbludger]

User Name are you thinking of something like this?

http://www.speedhunters.com/2013/06/more-torque-than-a-veyron-a-diesel-chevy-rod/

 

[wrongway around]

Fuel and air the crap out of an old 12 valve cummins or the smaller 4bt and call her good. You do realise this is a 4x4 site. Not a hot rod club right. Curious what mods have you done on your Isuzu, and why wouldn't you start with one of those, I've heard those might have potential . Plus when you start getting over board in the r&d hope you have some engineering background.

 

[mudbludger]

Its also a site that caters for bicycling, campfire cusine, hunting and fishing etc. This is a diesel thread that he was asking for info on performace diesels. Pretty sure the admins wont mind a bit of flexibilty on this topic, especially if he could manage to get a bit of mud on the thing lol

 

[BEE-JAY42]

I think the only thing living in the past is you . Not knocking you, your entitled to your opinion. But we have never seen higher numbers of "the old" diesels as you put it. The problem is noone has ever really taken the time to upgrade these engines and do it all propperly. I have a diesel performance business and 300rwhp and 800nm is available from the DT/FT/FTE and so on. Its half the cost of a engine conversion. And you get to retain the factory engine. Complete bolt in kits are already available, just not released yet.

I knew it wouldn't take long to hear from the first of the "red herring brigade", and my response is simply this. Proof or STFU, as the young people say, produce evidence of your claims of 300 rwhp at half conversion cost or be quite.

If you wish to discuss a specific point I have actually raised I will be glad to respond, if all you want to do is throw back generic responses that address nothing specifically (and act to put words in my mouth) and is backed up by literally nothing than don't waste your time.

 

[mudbludger]

sick em big boy

 

[TheBigBoy]

Na, he can just wait until its all released.

"Red herring brigade,, Asssseeeemmmmbbbllleeee" in Ron Bergendy voice.

 

[wrongway around]

Mudbludger I was only trying to sneek a jab in on oppie. Has to know what direction this thread would go. Just bringing up the fact that he already knows its not a Isuzu. Priceless on the sick em thing. I think there playing him. Where's bad boy ,bad boy.

 

[jeffbj70]

Hi iv got a 3.4L 3b in my 86 cruiser lx it got 360000k on it and I'm finding that she's really gutless what can I do to get more pep out of it don't really want to rebuild it but wouldn't mind an engine swap eather but what would fit and where could I find one