Performance Diesels.

[ForealBoreal]

Not to mention 1hz may be better suited for VO use.
They use them in 3rd world countries mainly because the IDIs still can handle "dirtier" fuel in comparison to the DIs that have more complicated two stage injectors.
So that may be a consideration.

I do thing a built up 1hz with a 12mm pump, plenum, airbox, intercooler, upgraded pistons and say one of Graemes badboys running 30lbs of boost would be a riot.

 

[77cruiser77]

The 1HZ does sound like the best pick for the application going into a cruiser. It does already have aftermarket internal components available off the shelf. It's only a matter if that rotary pump is an issue at all? That's where the TD42 has the advantage. Low pressure inline pump and IDI. The 1HZ hasn't been played with as much though so breaking new ground could be a lot fun.

 

[ForealBoreal]

The 1HZ does sound like the best pick for the application going into a cruiser. It does already have aftermarket internal components available off the shelf. It's only a matter if that rotary pump is an issue at all? That's where the TD42 has the advantage. Low pressure inline pump and IDI. The 1HZ hasn't been played with as much though so breaking new ground could be a lot fun.

Rotary pump shouldn't be an issue. The td42s running crazy power have rotarys. The biggest thing with running oil are:

1) fuel is completely de-watered
2) fuel is clean as possible (centrifuge is best for wvo)
3) fuel is at proper temperatures before being injected so it is the same viscosity as diesel fuel. (70 degree Celsius off the top of my head)

I have been reading that a 12mm pump on a td42 can give the same fuel economy as a 10mm even though its pumping more fuel. Why, because you will have to throttle less to keep at a sustained speed because of the added fuel. But that is assuming you keep your foot out of it.

With a proper tune guys have reported 12.5-13.5l per 100kms and getting high horsepower numbers. Works for me.

Not to mention if your running on cheap oil I wouldn't be too concerned about fuel economy. Your initial cost of setting up your processing is the killer. Once that pays for itself you are running at a fraction of the fuel cost.

 

[User Name]

Not many people would be wanting a td42 in their cruiser I'm thinking, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. If you're thinking about doing performance diesels in general then you'll have to get familiar the most common ones that people want to get more power out of-cruisers and patrols in Australia

Yeah no. If someone wanted a TD42 in their cruiser I'd be happy to do it for them if it was an interesting enough build, but what I'm really aiming for is far broader custom work.
I'd be happy to tinker with these motors in a rat rod or quirky old house truck.

I got really inspired by a Willys rod that sits on 31's and airbags, unfortunately they ditched the 4x4 gear and went with a 2WD drivetrain.

Link;
http://blogs.jpmagazine.com/6701613/featured-articles/red-inc-hot-rod/

Imagine having a vehicle similar with 4WD capabilities and a bit more suspension work for height travel

Curious if an engine can still be a candidate for you if it's direct injection? If not it helps the selection a lot. All the 1HD-T/FT/FTE are DI. The only modern (read newer not necessarily modern technology) Landcruiser Toyota diesel that is indirect injection is the 1HZ. The 1HZ does, as mentioned before, have a rotary pump however.

Any Toyota diesel engine with a "1" in front of it stands for direct injection (13BT, 12HT, 15BT) while its counterparts would be indirect injection (3B, 2H, etc). The exception to this is the 1HZ.

I get the sense you are feeling the waters for info and don't necessarily have a set budget and other details set in place. Leaving things like that out can keep a thread interesting since it just keeps it to the engine tech and what's "best" for performance while on SVO. A consideration is what Landcruiser model will you perhaps stuff an engine into? The engine bay in my 70 series is tight compared to my old HJ61 and from what I gather there is more space above the engine and on the sides in and 80 series compared to the narrow body 70 series too. A 70 series seems similar in engine bay space to a 40 series, not a surprise, but even still 6BT and more so 4BT cummins have been stuffed in 40's numerous times before.

I know of guys running SVO with direct injection without any real problems (even rotary IP's), it seems to just be more delicate and the preparation and delivery of fuel pre injectors becomes more important. This is a tricky area where as providing a vehicle to someone capable of running SVO (or Bio) leaves more room for error on the users behalf when it comes to fuel quality. I could do all that I possibly could to deliver the fuel in the best way possible on vehicle, and if the user were to run a bad batch of fuel they could be looking at an expensive repair bill.

I was chatting to a buddy today about running some injector tests for gaining more insight into spray patterns of various injectors both idi/di and varying temperatures of the oil. Not sure if anything of this nature has been done before, but I've yet to find anything.

It is a big reason why older engines appeal more, it generally feels and has been shown that the more robust/rugged an engine with less delicate parts the greater room for error. And if I am to be pushing big numbers that can't be a bad thing.

You're spot on with the budget and feeling things out. It's for a few reasons one being what you mentioned with keeping discussion open, obviously as well if it comes to building something for a customer, the budget will be dictated by what they are willing to spend, and another big one is that I don't want to limit myself as a builder (ie. being a '4x4 shop' or 'hot rodder'). I just want to make things that I find interesting and enjoy that hopefully others will as well to allow it to expand.
There was a quick mention of engine budget on the first page, and to begin I'd like to keep price around 10-15k. That's more so for my own personal use/experimenting and a kind of base line if anyone were interested.

Interesting point on the numerical engine labels, I'd never picked up on that one before!

 

[User Name]

Not to mention 1hz may be better suited for VO use.
They use them in 3rd world countries mainly because the IDIs still can handle "dirtier" fuel in comparison to the DIs that have more complicated two stage injectors.
So that may be a consideration.

I do thing a built up 1hz with a 12mm pump, plenum, airbox, intercooler, upgraded pistons and say one of Graemes badboys running 30lbs of boost would be a riot.

Which is another thing I find interesting considering soon we will be running a centrifuge setup to clean the oil. This should take us under 1 micron, while at the moment I generally filter to 2 or 5. With the oil heated properly (some say 60, some 70, some guys heat all the way up to 90) and delivered at the right pressure I can't see too much of a downside to running it with any setup, technically. Really, veg is a better lubricant than diesel so I'm looking forward to running some tests.

I was unaware the 1HZ was a rotary pump. It does seem the SVO crowd prefer inlines but like you said, I don't think it would be a real problem..

 

[ForealBoreal]

Which is another thing I find interesting considering soon we will be running a centrifuge setup to clean the oil. This should take us under 1 micron, while at the moment I generally filter to 2 or 5. With the oil heated properly (some say 60, some 70, some guys heat all the way up to 90) and delivered at the right pressure I can't see too much of a downside to running it with any setup, technically. Really, veg is a better lubricant than diesel so I'm looking forward to running some tests.

I was unaware the 1HZ was a rotary pump. It does seem the SVO crowd prefer inlines but like you said, I don't think it would be a real problem..

Exactly, the centrifuge would be nice because you would filter faster with less equipment. I looked and did a ton of research to switching to WVO with my truck but I am just not set up for it. I don't think it will happen for me anytime soon.

Nothing wrong with the rotary pump. If your running clean fuel than no worries. The rotary pumps will pump more fuel in comparison to an inline. They don't fxxx up too often. If your running lubed fuel then your pump will last a very long time.

 

[Dougal]

Why not? They will be running on SVO/Bio-diesel.

Why wouldn't I fit a TD42? They are readily available if I chose to use them and can get some descent figures..

Check the rules in your state. Age of vehicle and age of engine are often major stumbling blocks along with the emissions class of each.
Plenty of people in Aussie wanting to put Isuzu 4BD1T's into later defenders and battling for that reason.

IDI is not IMO compatible with performance diesels. They are ~20% less efficient which means you are ~20% behind on power and torque for the same boost and fuel.
Your fuel consumption starts to rival turbocharged petrols.

Yeah, not saying it can't be done, cummins 6bt is pretty big as well and I've heard/read of people putting them in cruisers. But they are big. If the Isuzu 6b is similar sized to the 6bt then I would much prefer the Isuzu.

The Isuzus are a lot more compact than the same displacement cummins.

The problem running veggie oil isn't the spray pattern. It's the compounds in the oil which do not burn cleanly. These are what gum up rings etc.
Biodiesel converts these compounds into ones which can be cleanly burnt.

 

[mudbludger]

Do you have a link?

Here is link, not much info on it.

Would love to see how they can get enough fuel into the thing

http://www.ozrodders.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=33876&start=30

 

[Tim-HJ61]

User name,

You mentioned me a few pages back.
Yes I run a 12ht on WVO with a GTurbo, intercooler, 3" exhaust and maxed out fuel pump.
We measured 470nm prior to installing the intercooler, so I'm guessing it's a bit higher now. I've been running my 12ht on WVO for six years. I'm pretty confident in my knowledge of this combination. The only improvement I can see coming is smoothing out the ports in the head. 500nm is about the best I could get after that I guess.

The 4.8 litre 12ht is best fed by bigger elements in the fuel pump to get the benefits. My mate has one.

IMHO when you start stroking the crank, installing 1hdt pistons, and modding the fuel pump, well it's hardly a 12ht any more. Yes it would go well, and you could feel good about the achievement. But For serious grunt, a drive in Graeme's dial up 600nm FTE is one hell of an experience, and he continues to develop and refine the GTurbo to suit this engine, and all the others. My engine of choice for a performance engine in a road vehicle, with a reasonable budget, would be the FTE.

WVO
I recently hosted Alexander Noack of Elsbett and Greasenergy fame in my home over the weekend he was in Perth. He gave two talks to the local veggie oilers, and a key takeaway is the ability to run WVO in common rail engines. The critical issues are clean fuel filtered to 1 micron, and the modification of the ECU to effectively manage the WVO in a single tank setup. There's a report on his visit at www.warfa.asn.au at the bottom of the page under Local Stories.

The news about WVO in common rail, in combination with the GTurbo development of turbos for common rail D4D V8's, opens up a whole possibility of high performance on cheaper fuel. At the moment, Alexander hasn't been able to mod the Toyota ECU adequately, it's something for the future.

I've no idea what power could be developed from a twin turbo 200 series Toyota, but that would surely exceed that available from the 4.2l FTE.

Tim

 

[User Name]

Exactly, the centrifuge would be nice because you would filter faster with less equipment. I looked and did a ton of research to switching to WVO with my truck but I am just not set up for it. I don't think it will happen for me anytime soon.

Nothing wrong with the rotary pump. If your running clean fuel than no worries. The rotary pumps will pump more fuel in comparison to an inline. They don't fxxx up too often. If your running lubed fuel then your pump will last a very long time.

I'll be doing a WVO conversion for someone who runs a Troopy with 1HZ in the next couple months, will definitely be a good test. It is in exchange for his restaurants oil and I won't be giving any of the oil back for him to use until I'm happy with the quality. Buddy should have the centrifuge running in a week or two, most parts are accounted for and it just needs the centre cone lathed as we currently don't have access to our own and then a balance.
I unfortunately have to skip town to work for a couple months so things will slow down a little.

Check the rules in your state. Age of vehicle and age of engine are often major stumbling blocks along with the emissions class of each.
Plenty of people in Aussie wanting to put Isuzu 4BD1T's into later defenders and battling for that reason.

IDI is not IMO compatible with performance diesels. They are ~20% less efficient which means you are ~20% behind on power and torque for the same boost and fuel.
Your fuel consumption starts to rival turbocharged petrols.



The Isuzus are a lot more compact than the same displacement cummins.

The problem running veggie oil isn't the spray pattern. It's the compounds in the oil which do not burn cleanly. These are what gum up rings etc.
Biodiesel converts these compounds into ones which can be cleanly burnt.

Being doing more research and I'll be confident running SVO on DI engines, rotary pumps as well. I think the biggest hurdle still will be ECU's.
The spray pattern from what I understand is affected if the oil is not heated correctly for the injectors, and with proper prep of the fuel between 90-95% is combusted. Bio is obviously an improvement, I'd like to have different setups for either fuel.

From memory playing with classics when I was younger it's around the pre 1970's mark that restrictions loosen up a lot, seeing I prefer cars from those era's it should work out fine

 

[User Name]

User name,

You mentioned me a few pages back.
Yes I run a 12ht on WVO with a GTurbo, intercooler, 3" exhaust and maxed out fuel pump.
We measured 470nm prior to installing the intercooler, so I'm guessing it's a bit higher now. I've been running my 12ht on WVO for six years. I'm pretty confident in my knowledge of this combination. The only improvement I can see coming is smoothing out the ports in the head. 500nm is about the best I could get after that I guess.

The 4.8 litre 12ht is best fed by bigger elements in the fuel pump to get the benefits. My mate has one.

IMHO when you start stroking the crank, installing 1hdt pistons, and modding the fuel pump, well it's hardly a 12ht any more. Yes it would go well, and you could feel good about the achievement. But For serious grunt, a drive in Graeme's dial up 600nm FTE is one hell of an experience, and he continues to develop and refine the GTurbo to suit this engine, and all the others. My engine of choice for a performance engine in a road vehicle, with a reasonable budget, would be the FTE.

WVO
I recently hosted Alexander Noack of Elsbett and Greasenergy fame in my home over the weekend he was in Perth. He gave two talks to the local veggie oilers, and a key takeaway is the ability to run WVO in common rail engines. The critical issues are clean fuel filtered to 1 micron, and the modification of the ECU to effectively manage the WVO in a single tank setup. There's a report on his visit at www.warfa.asn.au at the bottom of the page under Local Stories.

The news about WVO in common rail, in combination with the GTurbo development of turbos for common rail D4D V8's, opens up a whole possibility of high performance on cheaper fuel. At the moment, Alexander hasn't been able to mod the Toyota ECU adequately, it's something for the future.

I've no idea what power could be developed from a twin turbo 200 series Toyota, but that would surely exceed that available from the 4.2l FTE.

Tim

Tim,

Thanks for the reply. Truth be told, as much as I would love to work with the 12HT's as I love the engine, I do think working with another of the Toyo's would be energy better spent for my needs. Do you know the going rate for FTE's? They seem to be hard to track down..

That's excellent on Alexanders work and common rails. Has there been any interest in Nissans 3.0L V6 ECU?

 

[Tim-HJ61]

The Aussie based biofuelsforum.com will give you the best local info on veggie oil in DI And IDI.

In the FAQ there's a matrix of helping you figure the combinations of inline, injection type and injector type.

Without repeating it all;
WVO is fine in DI, but you MUST run a two tank system with effective heating and PURGING. Failure to do so will guarantee failure. Compliance with simple rules will ensure a long happy veggie life
Inline is better than rotary for pumps, if not for any other reason that you can use the lift pump to push oil through the filters. Rotary pumps suck hard and can suffer from worn lift pumps as they've been sucking thick oil and drawing air, which cavitates and wears the lift pump section of the IP.

I've a mate running lard in a D4D hilux common rail. Happy use for nine months now. In many ways lard is a better fuel than canola, it's just harder to manage out of the vehicle and requires more careful in vehicle management.

Tim

 

[Tim-HJ61]

Centrifuges are not commonly used in Australia although those who use them seem to like them.

Like many things, transferring technology that works with another medium into veggie oil does not necessarily fit. One significant contaminant in veggie oil is cooked flour. It is very light and fine. To get it to separate via centrifuge requires heaps of energy, both to thin the oil adequately to release the flour and to spin the centrifuge. A far more energy efficient method of fine filtration is a Bunnings bag and a settling process. The Bunnings Bag gathers a layer of fat, and the fat does the filtering slowly and effectively. These issues are well covered frequently in www.biofuelsforum.com

If you want to hot up a 2H, which is what this seems to be coming to, then go ahead. The other thing the 12ht has is the piston oil cooling sprayers. IMHO the best option for you and the old troopy is a 12ht. Find a wreck and rebuild the motor. I bought a wreck for $1500 that had run into tree, very fast. We Extricated the 12ht, and now my mate has it running as a 4.2l.

Tim

 

[Dougal]

WVO
I recently hosted Alexander Noack of Elsbett and Greasenergy fame in my home over the weekend he was in Perth. He gave two talks to the local veggie oilers, and a key takeaway is the ability to run WVO in common rail engines. The critical issues are clean fuel filtered to 1 micron, and the modification of the ECU to effectively manage the WVO in a single tank setup. There's a report on his visit at www.warfa.asn.au at the bottom of the page under Local Stories.

Any figures on injector and pump life yet? It will take a horrendous amount of free fuel to cover the replacement of those.

At the moment, Alexander hasn't been able to mod the Toyota ECU adequately, it's something for the future.

I've no idea what power could be developed from a twin turbo 200 series Toyota, but that would surely exceed that available from the 4.2l FTE.

Tim

The 4.4 V8 cruiser engine is essentially 2 European Avensis diesels joined at the crank. Since no-one has been able to remap the Avensis, I hold out zero hope for remapping the V8 ecu until the Avensis has been cracked.

That's excellent on Alexanders work and common rails. Has there been any interest in Nissans 3.0L V6 ECU?

It's a Renault engine.

 

[Tim-HJ61]

Any figures on injector and pump life yet? It will take a horrendous amount of free fuel to cover the replacement of those.

Hi Dougal,

Alexander has removed his conversion from his personal Mercedes as the body is falling apart. The engine, pump and injectors are still going fine at 440,000km.

He's fitted many kits with ECU mods to common rail sedans and heavy transport trucks. I've not been able to find any negative feedback about running with his ECU mods on single tank SVO. Yes it is a leap of faith, counterintuitive to what is comfortable.

I must revise my previous statement that Graeme's FTE is producing 600nm. It's on the high side of 850nm, my apologies for misleading.

Tim

 

[psweber]

Toyota rotary injector pump weakness

Nothing wrong with the rotary pump. If your running clean fuel than no worries. The rotary pumps will pump more fuel in comparison to an inline. They don't **** up too often. If your running lubed fuel then your pump will last a very long time.

I have been servicing the 1HZ here in Africa for some time and when Toyota switched to the rotary pump we began to have a huge increase of pump failures. Essentially the IP does not function very long (minutes ) when it experiences a low pressure on the inlet side. As much of our fuel is dirty as soon as you experience a loss of power due to a dirty filter you must pull over immediately or risk having to rebuild the pump. The old inline pumps stand up under this abuse for quite some time. I am running a 1HZ with a rotary pump but have installed a fuel pressure/vacuum gauge prior to the IP to prevent this disaster.