Pedal Commander for the 470 (1 Viewer)

[McDuff123]

I’ve never been a “seat of the pants” guy. Some say they can feel every single horsepower that their mods add...I never could.
So to say I was very pleasantly surprised when I made my first drive after installing the Pedal Commander on my 470 would be a complete understatement. Finally, I can feel the benefit of a performance mod!
After reading some reviews, and hearing from a few buddies about the significant felt improvement, I knew it was just a matter of time before I caved and bought one. Still, I did my research. Lots of Pro’s, which I’ll touch on in a bit. As for Con’s, nothing really except for the slow drumbeat from the “I don’t get it. Just mash the gas pedal more. Same thing, and it’s free” crowd.
Well, they might think it’s the same thing, but they’d be wrong.
The Pedal Commander (pc38 in my case) lives up to all the hype...
Install was a breeze, and as soon as I pulled out of the driveway I set it for City #2. Driving my neighborhood, on streets I drive daily, really gave me a solid reflection point. The PC made my truck absolutely come alive...that 470 V8 is a gem of a motor...I just didn’t know it because the stock ecu throttle control is very conservative.
The instant thrust and acceleration, without even trying (ie not mashing the gas) is such a nice thing! The truck feels hundreds of pounds lighter and instantly gets into its best power band. Shifts come quickly and easily, and the power just continues to build without needing to carry gears high into the rev range.
And I think that’s the big thing here...with light to moderate pressure on the pedal, the truck takes off more quickly and easily, and hits the shift points at a perfect spot. Each successive gear just builds on the power and acceleration, without huge RPM. I’m not surprised that economy could increase...the motor seems happier and more in its “sweet spot”.
I only put about 15 miles on...City 2, and Sport 1. I’ll probably play more but Sport 1 is a nice combo. I merged onto the freeway, just as a speedy Camaro was coming up behind me. I knew that, pre PC, I’d have been hard pressed to accelerate quickly enough to match his speed and not impede him, so I didn’t even try to. Imagine the grin when without even trying hard I saw him receding in my mirror.
I’ll keep trying different combo’s for my driving style, and I’ll be very interested to see what the ECO mode does when in 4 low. Good, bad or indifferent, I’ll give my honest opinion. For now, that opinion is a very happy one. I just wish I’d done it sooner.

 

[SteveH]

Great writeup. Are there 0-60 times (or 45-60) anywhere for 'with' and 'without' the PC?

Steve

 

[MrTorgue]

I’ve never been a “seat of the pants” guy. Some say they can feel every single horsepower that their mods add...I never could.
So to say I was very pleasantly surprised when I made my first drive after installing the Pedal Commander on my 470 would be a complete understatement. Finally, I can feel the benefit of a performance mod!
After reading some reviews, and hearing from a few buddies about the significant felt improvement, I knew it was just a matter of time before I caved and bought one. Still, I did my research. Lots of Pro’s, which I’ll touch on in a bit. As for Con’s, nothing really except for the slow drumbeat from the “I don’t get it. Just mash the gas pedal more. Same thing, and it’s free” crowd.
Well, they might think it’s the same thing, but they’d be wrong.
The Pedal Commander (pc38 in my case) lives up to all the hype...
Install was a breeze, and as soon as I pulled out of the driveway I set it for City #2. Driving my neighborhood, on streets I drive daily, really gave me a solid reflection point. The PC made my truck absolutely come alive...that 470 V8 is a gem of a motor...I just didn’t know it because the stock ecu throttle control is very conservative.
The instant thrust and acceleration, without even trying (ie not mashing the gas) is such a nice thing! The truck feels hundreds of pounds lighter and instantly gets into its best power band. Shifts come quickly and easily, and the power just continues to build without needing to carry gears high into the rev range.
And I think that’s the big thing here...with light to moderate pressure on the pedal, the truck takes off more quickly and easily, and hits the shift points at a perfect spot. Each successive gear just builds on the power and acceleration, without huge RPM. I’m not surprised that economy could increase...the motor seems happier and more in its “sweet spot”.
I only put about 15 miles on...City 2, and Sport 1. I’ll probably play more but Sport 1 is a nice combo. I merged onto the freeway, just as a speedy Camaro was coming up behind me. I knew that, pre PC, I’d have been hard pressed to accelerate quickly enough to match his speed and not impede him, so I didn’t even try to. Imagine the grin when without even trying hard I saw him receding in my mirror.
I’ll keep trying different combo’s for my driving style, and I’ll be very interested to see what the ECO mode does when in 4 low. Good, bad or indifferent, I’ll give my honest opinion. For now, that opinion is a very happy one. I just wish I’d done it sooner.

I too was part of the crowd you mention with the "BS you cannot feel a difference from an intake or exhaust" mod. I come from the fast cars world and unless you're adding a serious power adder like F/I, NOS or a complete NA tune kit at once you won't feel incremental differences much. Especially with V8's. Being that I have a 470 and 460 I get to compare them directly and the difference in throttle response from the factory is staggering. The 470 feels much more immediate and responsive. So having heard of the Pedal Commander in the MOPAR world where I came from recently I was pretty skeptical. But I thought anything is better than nothing and no amount of intake+exhaust combo is going to solve the sluggish eco-driven throttle mapping the 460 has. After pulling out of my drive way at idle then barely putting my foot on the throttle to the stop sign 1 house down I instantly noticed the ... instant ... jolt. I was starting to smile at that point. I tested it on just plain City +0. Promptly turned right to go down to the uninhabited more rural part of my road I gave it medium throttle to get up to 30mph and was instantly sold. Got down to the end of that road and put it on Sport +2 and was rather surprised this heavy brick had this sort of behavior just waiting underneath the Toyota safe and eco programming. Now I roll around with City +1 because I'm not in a fast car but more I need less pedal movement to relax my leg a bit. And man does it really enhance the driving experience and it solves some of the sluggish cruise control nonsense during an incline and or headwind.

Now that my wife loves what it did she wants it on her 470 and my goodness I cannot imagine doing Sport on the 470. It would almost be a rocket ship to about ~50mph.

Great writeup. Are there 0-60 times (or 45-60) anywhere for 'with' and 'without' the PC?

Steve

I can say the 60' time is going to significantly improve and you may shave a few tenths off the 0-60 just simply because of the throttle body opening up quicker which is a great thing with all this torque on tap (V8 for the win!). I don't have a long straight enough empty rural / private road to test this anymore since I moved otherwise I would absolutely test it. If I had to hazard a guess based on my previous fast cars experience I'd imagine a completely stock 470 empty with driver only would shave ~0.2s off the 0-60 time. just with the pedal commander set on anything above Sport +0. With a tune, aFe momentum intake and a better exhaust the pedal commander would have an even better result. I could see with these mods, the pedal commander and some cold dense ambient air you could get half a second or more off the 0-60. The 460 would be around that as well with the slight increase in power to offset the additional weight.

 

[McDuff123]

Great writeup. Are there 0-60 times (or 45-60) anywhere for 'with' and 'without' the PC?

Steve

Thanks...
No hard data, as I’m not that serious. I did this only because, now that the truck is built (and heavier), and I pull a small trailer, I wanted a bit more responsiveness.
Not a racer, and I don’t like abusing my stuff stoplight to stoplight.

 

[Mr Chuck Norris]

I'm glad you like it.

But there is literally zero power added from a Pedal Commander. It will force the ECU to think you are pressing the throttle pedal harder/faster, but it will not force the throttle body of a DBW car to open any faster or further than the ECU allows. And it will not force the ECU to add any more fuel than it is tuned for.

So yes, it is effectively the same as "just push the pedal harder".

 

[MrTorgue]

.

 

[Mr Chuck Norris]

Oh here we go. No it doesn’t add power, nobody said it did. And no it isn’t the same as “push” the pedal harder. Even flooring my 460 hard didn’t have the result this gives me. But I guess we’ll just agree to disagree and chalk this up to another toxic coke vs pepsi, ford vs chevy or glock vs 1911 debate and slowly walk away.

Also, I ran an experiment with my post and you gave me the result I expected, thanks. I’ll see myself out.

When the conversation turns towards 0-60 times and other performance related data, then yes it's obvious that there is a misunderstanding about what a product like this does. So I could either agree (and both of us would be wrong ), not say anything, or discuss the errors I see. In the case of forums like T4R where it's more or less a circle jerk I gave up trying to say anything. But here on Mud, the old crowd tends to value technical discussion and facts/data.

So...

Please explain, in your words, what a Pedal Commander does that is different than pressing the throttle pedal farther/faster.

 

[McDuff123]

I'm glad you like it.

But there is literally zero power added from a Pedal Commander. It will force the ECU to think you are pressing the throttle pedal harder/faster, but it will not force the throttle body of a DBW car to open any faster or further than the ECU allows. And it will not force the ECU to add any more fuel than it is tuned for.

So yes, it is effectively the same as "just push the pedal harder".

I agree, no additional power is being created. For the record, no one on this thread said it was.
But it ISN‘T the same as just mashing the gas pedal, and that’s what I’m trying to make clear to people who have opinions but no actual experience...
When you mash the pedal, the car will lurch forward, accelerate well, hold the gear until (very) high RPM’s, then abruptly shift to the next gear. Repeat until you’re done abusing your vehicle.
With the PC, much less throttle gets you a quicker launch, puts you right into the meat of the power band where the engine wants to be, then quickly and smoothly gets into the next gear. RPMs don’t surge, shifts are smoother, and the pull from always being in the power band is linear and impressive.
If one has tried it and disagrees, then that’s good info to have.
I‘ve tried it now, and have explained my thoughts and results to the best of my ability.
Get one or don’t...I don’t care. Knowing what I know now, I’d do it again in a second.

 

[Rednexus]

While I don't have a PC on my GX to discuss, my Mazda 3 does have a Sport Mode (which is basically the pre-programmed same thing), that changes the throttle mapping, transmission shift points, etc. There is a huge difference driving the car in regular/eco mode (which it's in 99.5% of the time) and Sport (which it's in the other 0.5% of the time when I want to rip down one of our twisty Ozark letter highways). Throttle mapping has a huge difference in the drivability of the car, with the biggest difference being when the transmission shifts. One complaint with my GX (and my Mazda in the normal/eco mode) is that they upshift incredibly soon. It's annoying to pull out into traffic, have the vehicle shift from 1st to 2nd gear mid-turn, and then be stuck at the bottom end of 2nd gear when you need some acceleration to keep up with traffic, or needing to punch the throttle way down to have the vehicle shift right back into 1st (which is fairly slow with the dated 5AT in the GX and fairly quick with the 6AT in my Mazda). Lazy, eco-friendly throttle mapping will make any vehicle effectively "slow" here, regardless of the total power. On the other hand, if you pulled out into traffic with the pedal on the floor, there is probably a marginal (if any) difference between stock eco mapping and PC/sport mode, but I rarely run my vehicles at full-throttle (which would be reckless pulling out into normal traffic), while part-throttle responsiveness is very important.

Without a PC I can't comment on what, if any, effects it has on transmission shift points (as they are controlled by, among other things, throttle position) but better throttle mapping would make the GX better/easier to drive. I sometimes miss the cable throttle and 5MT on my old Subaru Forester, it was great having full control over all engine and transmission functions and not having to worry about software mapping or electronic nannies.

BTW - if you want actual power gains, put long-tube headers on your GX (assuming you don't have emissions inspections precluding it). See my build thread, I'm still enjoying lots of extra real power from the mod. The headers greatly improved throttle response due to the added midrange torque. I'll get a PC too at some point, but it's pretty far down my mods list (after suspension, then cracked dash repair).

 

[Mr Chuck Norris]

I agree, no additional power is being created. For the record, no one on this thread said it was.
But it ISN‘T the same as just mashing the gas pedal, and that’s what I’m trying to make clear to people who have opinions but no actual experience...
When you mash the pedal, the car will lurch forward, accelerate well, hold the gear until (very) high RPM’s, then abruptly shift to the next gear. Repeat until you’re done abusing your vehicle.
With the PC, much less throttle gets you a quicker launch, puts you right into the meat of the power band where the engine wants to be, then quickly and smoothly gets into the next gear. RPMs don’t surge, shifts are smoother, and the pull from always being in the power band is linear and impressive.
If one has tried it and disagrees, then that’s good info to have.
I‘ve tried it now, and have explained my thoughts and results to the best of my ability.
Get one or don’t...I don’t care. Knowing what I know now, I’d do it again in a second.

What you just described is exactly the same as moving the throttle pedal to a position deeper into the travel.

Any throttle pedal controller does one thing, and one thing alone: changes the relationship between the pedal's output signal and the ECU's pedal input signal. That's it. They openly say that that's it.

Look at the attached throttle curve screenshot from the Sport Mode on a Pedal Commander. By pressing the throttle pedal to 20%, the ECU is receiving a signal that you are pressing the pedal to 70%. That's it. That is exactly the same as if you were pressing the throttle to 70% with your foot.

 

[Rednexus]

What you just described is exactly the same as moving the throttle pedal to a position deeper into the travel.

Any throttle pedal controller does one thing, and one thing alone: changes the relationship between the pedal's output signal and the ECU's pedal input signal. That's it. They openly say that that's it.

Look at the attached throttle curve screenshot from the Sport Mode on a Pedal Commander. By pressing the throttle pedal to 20%, the ECU is receiving a signal that you are pressing the pedal to 70%. That's it. That is exactly the same as if you were pressing the throttle to 70% with your foot.

The graph provides an output of signal from the throttle sensor, which is not the same as actual throttle position at the throttle body. The ECU takes the throttle output and then uses it based on the pre-programmed throttle mapping to determine how far the throttle actually opens (along with a multitude of other factors). It would be interesting to see what the OEM throttle mapping in a GX actually is, but I'm betting it is not linear (going back to my Mazda in normal/eco mode, the first 75% of the pedal travel is maybe 40% of the throttle, then the remaining 25% of pedal travel gets you actual full throttle - which makes the car a bit bipolar when not in sport mode). Having lazy OEM throttle mapping is not fun, pushing the throttle pedal 50% of the way down to get throttle blade to open 30% is not be the best for drivability.

 

[SteveH]

I didn't mean to start an internecine war here.

You will all laugh, but I find my stock GX 470 pedal way too touchy for driving around town. It's my wife's truck and every time I drive it, I'm too aggressive on the pedal. But, that's because my other vehicles are a '98 4Runner, an '89 FJ62, a '78 FJ40, and a 7.3 Powerstroke. None of those will exactly snap your neck off the line (or any other time).

 

[Mr Chuck Norris]

The graph provides an output of signal from the throttle sensor, which is not the same as actual throttle position at the throttle body. The ECU takes the throttle output and then uses it based on the pre-programmed throttle mapping to determine how far the throttle actually opens (along with a multitude of other factors). It would be interesting to see what the OEM throttle mapping in a GX actually is, but I'm betting it is not linear (going back to my Mazda in normal/eco mode, the first 75% of the pedal travel is maybe 40% of the throttle, then the remaining 25% of pedal travel gets you actual full throttle - which makes the car a bit bipolar when not in sport mode). Having lazy OEM throttle mapping is not fun, pushing the throttle pedal 50% of the way down to get throttle blade to open 30% is not be the best for drivability.

I agree that OEM pedal mapping may be bland on some vehicles, though on my GX I rarely use more than 1/2 throttle and I am not easy on it. I have zero issues with the pedal mapping. But what happens between the ECU and the electronic throttle body is going to be the same whether you have the pedal controller installed or not. The only thing that will change is the actual position of the throttle pedal while driving and how much travel you need to move your foot.

I have no problem pressing the throttle pedal to 70% when I want it at 70%. I don't need to spend $300 to only have to push the pedal to 20% (per the Sport mode example I posted earlier).

 

[Rednexus]

I agree that OEM pedal mapping may be bland on some vehicles, though on my GX I rarely use more than 1/2 throttle and I am not easy on it. I have zero issues with the pedal mapping. But what happens between the ECU and the electronic throttle body is going to be the same whether you have the pedal controller installed or not. The only thing that will change is the actual position of the throttle pedal while driving and how much travel you need to move your foot.

I have no problem pressing the throttle pedal to 70% when I want it at 70%. I don't need to spend $300 to only have to push the pedal to 20% (per the Sport mode example I posted earlier).

It's more the initial tip-in at 0-25% throttle that gives me problems in the GX. Pulling out of my kid's daycare every morning is a pain as it has a tight driveway and is on a 50-mph road. I get the annoying 1-2 shift, followed by a 2-1 shift that could be adjusted with better throttle mapping giving more responsiveness early in the pedal. Same thing merging from one road to another at 25 mph - 2-3 shift, then a 3-2 shift to get going again. The existing throttle response and transmission shift points are simply poor and feels very non-linear at part throttle. Holding the throttle down more means I'd be flying around a curve at a high speed which is dangerous.

 

[Mr Chuck Norris]

It's more the initial tip-in at 0-25% throttle that gives me problems in the GX. Pulling out of my kid's daycare every morning is a pain as it has a tight driveway and is on a 50-mph road. I get the annoying 1-2 shift, followed by a 2-1 shift that could be adjusted with better throttle mapping giving more responsiveness early in the pedal. Same thing merging from one road to another at 25 mph - 2-3 shift, then a 3-2 shift to get going again. The existing throttle response and transmission shift points are simply poor and feels very non-linear at part throttle. Holding the throttle down more means I'd be flying around a curve at a high speed which is dangerous.

That's a factor of the drivetrain on the GX, not really the throttle. The dual vvti 2UZ is revvy and doesn't produce a lot of torque off idle, and the A750 trans doesn't have a low first gear. With 3.73 stock gears, the overall gear ratio is barely low enough on the stock 30.6" tall tires. Once you add taller tires the problem gets even worse. The trans is holding first, then shifting to second, then the gear ratio is too tall and the trans line pressure spikes causing the rapid clunky downshift (I could digress into transmission load differential between the input and output shafts, shift programming, blah blah blah ).

By the time this happens you're 3-4 seconds into accelerating. The 2-3 tenths of a second to move the pedal from 0% to 70% isn't contributing, and reducing that to 1-2 tenths to instead move the pedal to 20% wouldn't change a thing.

 

[Rednexus]

That's a factor of the drivetrain on the GX, not really the throttle. The dual vvti 2UZ is revvy and doesn't produce a lot of torque off idle, and the A750 trans doesn't have a low first gear. With 3.73 stock gears, the overall gear ratio is barely low enough on the stock 30.6" tall tires. Once you add taller tires the problem gets even worse. The trans is holding first, then shifting to second, then the gear ratio is too tall and the trans line pressure spikes causing the rapid clunky downshift (I could digress into transmission load differential between the input and output shafts, shift programming, blah blah blah ).

By the time this happens you're 3-4 seconds into accelerating. The 2-3 tenths of a second to move the pedal from 0% to 70% isn't contributing, and reducing that to 1-2 tenths to instead move the pedal to 20% wouldn't change a thing.

A better method would be is someone had a good tuning software for these 2UZ vehicles. Supposedly OrangeVirus was going to have a tune available, but it has yet to materialize. I'd LOVE to change the transmission shift points and the throttle mapping, in addition to tweaking other things based on the CAI and headers I've already added. A PC is pretty far down my mods list (really at the very end), maybe we'll have some actual tuning options then.

 

[Mr Chuck Norris]

A better method would be is someone had a good tuning software for these 2UZ vehicles. Supposedly OrangeVirus was going to have a tune available, but it has yet to materialize. I'd LOVE to change the transmission shift points and the throttle mapping, in addition to tweaking other things based on the CAI and headers I've already added. A PC is pretty far down my mods list (really at the very end), maybe we'll have some actual tuning options then.

I wish I could like this post more than once. ECU and TCU tuning would be the best option for GXs as well as most modern cars tuned for fuel economy and driveability for 40 year old soccer moms. APR does a good job of this in the VW/Audi world, with their engine and transmission tunes that solve 99.9% of enthusiast driveability complaints about the stock vehicles.

 

[Jtman95]

Just an observation but while tuning software would be ideal, the point is that there is none that is readily available. So to poo poo on something that modifies not only the throttle response but also the shifting efficiency is silly and nullifies the "just mash your pedal harder" argument. One of the key indicators of performance is the responsiveness of the engine to throttle input and how the ECU lines up the most efficient RPM to shift point ratios. If this is what PC does, then it's legit. I want to find out for myself so I'm ordering one soon.

 

[Mrpinortiner]

Instant wide open throttle, removes linearity from the signal to turn your pedal into an on off switch. I'm not a fan.

 

[MrTorgue]

Just an observation but while tuning software would be ideal, the point is that there is none that is readily available. So to poo poo on something that modifies not only the throttle response but also the shifting efficiency is silly and nullifies the "just mash your pedal harder" argument. One of the key indicators of performance is the responsiveness of the engine to throttle input and how the ECU lines up the most efficient RPM to shift point ratios. If this is what PC does, then it's legit. I want to find out for myself so I'm ordering one soon.

I’d like to report using the pedal commander on my 460 during our western ~5,400 mile road trip was proof of its usefulness to me. I had zero foot fatigue and it helps

Just an observation but while tuning software would be ideal, the point is that there is none that is readily available. So to poo poo on something that modifies not only the throttle response but also the shifting efficiency is silly and nullifies the "just mash your pedal harder" argument. One of the key indicators of performance is the responsiveness of the engine to throttle input and how the ECU lines up the most efficient RPM to shift point ratios. If this is what PC does, then it's legit. I want to find out for myself so I'm ordering one soon.

Have the pedal commander on my 460 and after going on the ~5,400 road trip I can say to me it’s worth it. Zero foot fatigue and effortless acceleration around town with very little pedal input. To me regardless of the “push the pedal harder” argument it still has value. Plus I hate having to constantly mash the skinny pedal just to move around. I don’t need one for our 470 because it’s already decent enough. All my other V8 vehicles have had effortless acceleration with lighter pedal input so the 460 was a huge disappointment in that aspect.