Does anyone know if any company makes a panhard drop bracket to bring the rod back into a neutral position for the 200 series?
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Panhard drop bracket option? (1 Viewer)
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bloc
SILVER Star
I’ve been meaning to ask about this.. there is very little discussion on this significant issue with suspension travel.
This topic needs more attention, particularly for those that have more aggressive lifts. The 80-series community found the nirvana that this kind of part can bring to better control rear axle lateral movement.
@GJamisonUT custom built drop bracket and lift panhard brackets for his setup. He has the CAD files and may be able to reproduce them rather easily. It would require welding however.
forum.ih8mud.com
@GJamisonUT custom built drop bracket and lift panhard brackets for his setup. He has the CAD files and may be able to reproduce them rather easily. It would require welding however.
Builds - 2010 LX 570 -AHC Delete, Tundra Swap, 4.5" BDS Lift
Hey all. I am happy to say that I have a lot of progress to share. I was finally able to take my LX out for a "shakedown" trip after completing the planned modifications to the panhard and upper trailing arms. I am still working on the RLC rear bumper...as you can see I only have it partially...
forum.ih8mud.com
That would be great if Delta made one for the 200. I've got a Delta bracket on my 80. For anyone with some skill with CAD (cardboard aided design), grinder and welder, it wouldn't be too hard to make a drop bracket with a couple different holes for various lift heights. There are some good homemade examples on t4r.org.
I am interested in this as well. After my ~2.5” rear lift the rear axle has shifted about half an inch to the vehicles left and the panhard bar is sitting at maybe a 10 degree angle. Under emergency braking the vehicle does tend to want to veer slightly as the truck dives and the axle shifts further away from center.
kcjaz
SILVER Star
Please educate me. What would a drop bracket do/achieve that an adjustable panhard bar doesn’t?
An adjustable panhard bar doesn't get the geometry back to a horizontal bar; it simply relocates the axle to account for the more extreme angle of the panhard bar after installing a lift. This video does a good job of showing the desire for drop brackets, as they allow for the panhard bar to be horizontal and minimize lateral movement of the axle after lifting the truck.
bloc
SILVER Star
Great video.. I’ve always struggled to explain this concept, and had no idea there was a word for the side to side movement.
As for a bracket to relocate either end and get it closer to horizontal, one issue is usually doing that while avoiding interference issues. My friend just bought a used jeep with a lanyard bracket and it hits the body pretty easily on compression. Plus if relocation is done at the axle end of the link the raised position usually adds twisting forces to the stock bracket that were more of a lateral force when stock. Basically this stuff needs to be well designed to maintain stock strength levels.
kcjaz
SILVER Star
That is a great video. Thanks @mdh384. I’ve never really thought about this too much but understand that my lift would shift my rear axle slightly to the passenger side (panhard frame connection point). But in my head, all the lift does is raise the normal ride position but the overall suspension travel (up and down) is about the same. So the maximum left to right movement of the rear axle is the same as it is w/o the lift. I guess most of the time, just running down the road, the axle will be shifted passenger. What I’m missing is why is this a big problem?
bloc
SILVER Star
In the video pay attention from 2:50 to 3:50. Basically if the bar is horizontal it minimizes the side-to-side movement of the axle with cycling of the suspension. Any movement away from horizontal causes an increasing factor of side-to-side, because of where the axle end of the link is in it's arc of movement. The further down the imaginary circle, the more the axle has to move laterally for a given amount of vertical travel.
I have a minimal lift and can still feel the rear of the truck "wag" with large bridge undulations that lift and compress the rear suspension. An adjustable panhard wouldn't do anything for this, even if it returns the axle to centered under the truck at ride height. But, returning the panhard to horizontal would return it to stock behavior.
Note that in that video they point out you actually don't want the axle totally centered under the vehicle at ride height.. you want it moved over by half of the sagitta.. so that at the top and bottom of axle travel, it is offset the other direction the same distance.. halfway up and halfway down, the axle is centered. This averages the axle location through suspension movement. (I didn't know all of this about panhard setup before the video, but it makes sense)
Edit: one other thing to consider about this.. if we significantly increase travel, and set up our panhard to be level as is ideal, with all the extra up-travel from ride height we may end up shifting the axle sideways more than stock. I'd have to take some measurements and do the calculations, but in theory we can end up with a situation where our bump stops no longer line up with their intended targets. This would also be the case with an extended panhard that is not level.. so if it were a significant concern I think we'd be seeing posts about it.
I am exploring this extension with a local shop as well. I'm running a modest lift with the BP51 setup and the "wag" (good description!) is very noticeable to me. Earlier on in my journey to solve it, I swapped out the stock panhard bar for for an adjustable bar, but the wag is still there and this video describes presumably why. I really am curious if restoring it to level will reduce the feel of the side to side when the suspension is active.
That is a great video and explains the panhards interaction with lift and travel nicely.
Understand lift affects the panhard, but it's more insidious as it effects every other link as well. The trailing links are at steeper angles creating jacking forces upon hard acceleration and deceleration. They interact with the panhard side to side displacement too and when combined creates axle thrust changes. It gets uglier with increasingly more lift. Which is why I find it funny when people installing suspensions with huge lift say their car handles "better". Well, maybe in limited ways, but surely worse overall. Though solving the panhard problem with a drop link, should in itself make the biggest difference.
Then there's the front axle link impacts. Perhaps with suboptimal wheels offsets. ....probably more than we want to get into here.
But more clearance! This is where I'm a proponent of larger diameter tires, and less lift. Tires that create real lift under the rear axle. More traction. With hopefully less geometry impact with milder lifts. It's not without it's challenges either as it can require re-gear and BBKs.
Understand lift affects the panhard, but it's more insidious as it effects every other link as well. The trailing links are at steeper angles creating jacking forces upon hard acceleration and deceleration. They interact with the panhard side to side displacement too and when combined creates axle thrust changes. It gets uglier with increasingly more lift. Which is why I find it funny when people installing suspensions with huge lift say their car handles "better". Well, maybe in limited ways, but surely worse overall. Though solving the panhard problem with a drop link, should in itself make the biggest difference.
Then there's the front axle link impacts. Perhaps with suboptimal wheels offsets. ....probably more than we want to get into here.
But more clearance! This is where I'm a proponent of larger diameter tires, and less lift. Tires that create real lift under the rear axle. More traction. With hopefully less geometry impact with milder lifts. It's not without it's challenges either as it can require re-gear and BBKs.
Great thread, learning a ton.
bloc
SILVER Star
these are great points, and IMO another significant negative to handling is our front LCAs being angled, with a “jacking” effect under cornering being noticeable.
But to me the “wag” of an angled panhard is the most noticeable negative attribute from the rear and a panhard drop (or raise, of the axle end) should solve it well.
You are also highlighting parts of my original reasoning for keeping my lift mild. I’m sure you can appreciate the staggering amount of work that goes into balancing these for off road as well as on road use.. while being reliable, safe, efficient, predictable… then we go and mess with all of it by slapping on a lift or messing with the AHC sensors. Bigger meats have drawbacks too but not as significant as the impacts to geometry for an equivalent suspension lift. I remember a mini truck build on pirate that had 44s or something close with only 2 or 3 inches of lift to account for the larger axle tubes of one-tons and they just cut away everything that didn’t clear the tires, including the hood. As you might expect it worked beautifully.
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I can notice the "wag" especially on a bridge I drive daily that has pretty terrible expansion joints. Even though the front and rear suspension components are compressing/rebounding at the same time over the joints I still get a wobble feeling like the truck is teetering on 2 opposite corner (say driver front and passenger rear). If I have a decent amount of weight in the rear of the vehicle (like this morning pulling a trailer) the wag is almost non-existent, and I attribute that to the rear squatting closer to its neutral position.
bloc
SILVER Star
That is exactly what is going on.
@sleeoffroad @TRAIL TAILOR @benc
Do you know whether anyone is working on this?
Edit: just realized with the new tundra moving to coils and links the guys wanting their eight inch lifts are going to have to think about this.
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kcjaz
SILVER Star
I can understand the reasons for wanting to minimize the “wag” and how the geometry of the panhard means having it horizontal when the truck is at “normal” ride height does this. Great thread here. I just have never noticed any “wag” and I have 30mm spacers on top of my rear 2721s.
Also, I don’t see how the bump stops could miss the targets at full up travel. The panhard is a fixed radius so the bump stop has to hit the target. What am I missing?
