Optima Red Top - Failed While Winching?

[johnbelcher]

I bought a new Optima Red top last week for my 96 FZJ80 in preparation for an off road adventure this weekend. I was winching (Warn 9500) out of some water saturated mud/sand late Friday night (For the 2nd time in 30 minutes). The engine was running, aux cooling fan was running, Hella's were on and was blasting some Pat Green on the radio.

Anyway...after I was back on dry land ... as I was rolling the cable back onto the spool the winch motor speed started to slow dramiticaaly, the headlights dimmed and the engine died before I could even get my thumb off the bloody trigger. It went from running to dead in about 2 seconds.

I took the slack and wrapped it around the ARB bumper and decided to head back to camp and figure out what the issue was in the morning when I could see...plus it was 1am and I was whipped. When I tried to start engine...the battery was too weak to turn over the motor. The battery was dead!

While I was getting out my sleeping bag for a cramped night of sleeping in the back of the Cruiser with my 13 year old son I decided to give it one more try. About 15 minutes had passed since the last try. Success! The battery was still very weak but it got the job done. I drove the 30 of so minutes back to camp and let it sit the rest of the night with a charger attached. Seems to be ok now but I'm not so sure I trust it now.

So the questions I have are...

- Is this battery bad? Is the Optima brand not all that I expected?
- Did I over tax the system with all the winching combined with all the rest of the electrical load? Is this normal?
- Should I go with a dual setup and run the winch accessories off the second battery?

 

[MaddBaggins]

What were the RPM's while winching? If you were idling, then you over taxed the battery. You need to run up the RPM's to a good 2k or so, either with your foot on the gas or with a hand throttle.

 

[johnbelcher]

We were very stuck and had to use the ARB snatch block on both occasions...my son ran the winch from the cable control while I spun the wheels....on both occasions. I had it up to 2500 rpms most of the time. Even then it took some significant effort to get us unstuck. Even with the engin revved and the wheels pinning, the winch was barely making any progress...I was wishing for a 12k winch.

Should I be reving the engine while just spooling the cable back on the reel? That is when the lights dimmed and the engine died.

 

[MaddBaggins]

You had the RPM's up while the winch was doing the real work so thats good. I turn everything off thats not neccessary when winching. You may have gotten a faulty battery to begin with, it happens.
A 9500 winch is big enough for our rigs, I know a lot of guys like to get the big dog 12k but a Warn is a damn good winch.

 

[jvazquez53]

Bad Optimas strikes again!!!! IMO those batteries are no better than some cheaper batteries.

 

[Gordopescado]

P.O.S. Optima Battery!

 

[bignasty]

Red Tops are for starting a vehicle mainly. They are not meant to be an aux. battery per say. Some members have good luck using them for aux. battery. But you will damage them when used in this manner. A better choice would be yellow top or any deep cycle battery. Theses batteries are more forgiving then the red tops. They are meant to be drawn all the way down and will return to their fully charge state when charged. You will mess a red top up if this is done constantly. I have done this. I find it is better to run a bigger alternator than rely on batteries for the amps. I never had a winch but I would guess that the engine is still on when you need the winch. If this is so than battery will only give you a limited amount of amps until you discharge the battery and feed directly from the alternator. If your alternator isn’t up to par than you will mess your alternator up. I see a lot of rigs on this site that run dual batteries but no upgraded alternator. This will speed up your alternator’s death. Too wrap this up. Get a deep cycle battery or a yellow top. If you need more amps (with the engine on) get it from a bigger alternator rather batteries.
If it were me I would get the biggest alternator (200amp or more) I could afford then add batteries (deep cycle) if I wanted longer engine off power. And another added benefit from a bigger alternator is you don’t have to turn off other auxiliaries because you have the amps.

 

[wfd175]

I had the same problem with my Warn 9.5xp. Everything was going fine during a pull out of a ditch, then after a few minutes, the winch suddenly stopped working. Headlights dimmed. Then just click, click from the winch solenoid.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/216374-warn-9-5-xp-problem.html


Are your drainholes properly opened up for the ARB/warn feet forward mount. I thought it was the battery too. It ended up after winching for a few minutes that the water in the housing soaked the motor and shorted it out. A local commercial alternator and electric motor company was able to clean and rebuild the motor 130.00. The new motor price is +$400.

 

[jonb96150]

Should I be reving the engine while just spooling the cable back on the reel? That is when the lights dimmed and the engine died.

Yes. Anytime the winch motor is working it is draining the battery, even with the light load of spooling cable. You worked the bejeebus out of that battery. Like madbaggins said, turn off all non-essential loads while winching. With two hard pulls in 30 minutes at night with lights on as well I'd say the battery performed well. The fact that it started the engine after 15 minutes of rest indicates to me that it is okay imho.

That battery is like a 55gal drum of water, with the alternator pouring water into it at a rate of 1 gal per minute. Electric winching is like draining 10 gal per min out of the drum. It doesn't take long to empty the drum while winching. With enough time the alt will refill the drum, but at night the lights are draining about 3/4 of a gallon per minute out, so there is very little surplus left to refill the drum for the next winching excersize. Using the snatch block cut your amp draw in half so that was good.

 

[AuburnFJsexy]

Wow, another thread that will lead to optima bashing...You should have purchased a yellow top since you have a winch and other accessories. Like bignasty stated they are starting batteries. Take it back and trade it in for a yellow top and you will be fine.

 

[gotmud]

Lots of stories of this happening to others. Personally, I'm not a fan of Optimas, but that is from my own experience. Good luck.

 

[johnbelcher]

Thanks to everyone who responded!

I do plan to add more lights and other power hungry goodies so
I've decided to go with the dual battery install and add a Yellow Top to mix along with a beefed up alternator. Basically the setup up described on the Slee website.

If you have a favorite alternator seller and a part number...please share. Bigger and badder is better! Over engineering is an art form IMHO.

In retrospect I think I just beat the crap out of the electrical system. Had I left the Wal-Mart battery in the the PO installed I probably would have never made it out of the first hole!

Shucks...another project!

 

[photogod]

Seems like when I read threads about Optima batteries sucking so bad it turns out that the operator is/was using them in an improper application like this. As stated before, the red top is a starting battery not a deep cycle. That is why it failed. I have been running two yellow tops for four years and they have preformed flawlessly. I have let the rig sit for four weeks without startup and when I turn the key, starts right up. I run the fridge for four or five days with out start up and when I turn the key, starts right up. I winch with the RPM set at 1700 and I can winch all day with no problems. Sorry to hear of guys having problems with the batteries but I think it is mostly due to pilot error not bad batteries.

 

[alia176]

So the questions I have are...

- Is this battery bad? Is the Optima brand not all that I expected?
> yes, it's bad. Optima has been going downhill for some time now!

- Did I over tax the system with all the winching combined with all the rest of the electrical load?
> probably. Having a weak battery meant that your reserve wasn't enough. So you drained out of it faster than the ALT can recharge the battery.

Is this normal?
> no. If you have a good quality battery, this is a non issue.

- Should I go with a dual setup and run the winch accessories off the second battery?
> no need for a dual batt setup. Just buy a good quality battery like the Die Hard Platinum that I and others have purchased. A quick search will reveal threads with pics.

 

[bignasty]

You do not want to have two different batteries connect to the same alternator. For example, a deep cycle and standard battery connected together. Internal resistance for each battery needs to be the same. This is very bad for an alternator and will cause one battery to charge at a different rate.

There are a lot of alternator companies out there. Here are a few: Iraggi alternator, Mechman, Ohio Generator, Mean Green, High output alternator, Zena, Wranglernw, Excessive Amperage. These are a few. There are also few basic things to ask a particular company.
1. What is the hot rating on your alternator? An alternator will drop amps when it gets hot, so base your requirements from this measurement.
2. Can I get an O-scope reading of the alternator? You want to make sure that you have alternator that will produce your needed amps without giving you a ripple voltage. Ripple voltage will damage electronics. This is almost like a “BROWN OUT” for a home.
3. Is this alternator internal or external regulated? There is no bad choice for this. This is up to you. This will give you the ability to either turn up or down the voltage (external will allow this easier).
4. Do I need a custom bracket? Some alternators require special brackets. I haven’t upgraded my alternator yet so I don’t know if it is a big case or small case.

 

[SeanAndHis80]

You do not want to have two different batteries connect to the same alternator. For example, a deep cycle and standard battery connected together. Internal resistance for each battery needs to be the same. This is very bad for an alternator and will cause one battery to charge at a different rate.

There is no issue with two batteries connected to the same alternator - in fact, it is rare to have more than one alternator in a dual battery setup. What I think bignasty is getting at is that you should not have two batteries connected in parallel. That is where the internal resistance of the batteries will come into play. The problem is that the one with less internal resistance will be trying to charge the one with more resistance - even if the battery is completely charged. An isolator or a relay as described on the Slee site will prevent this from happening.

 

[bignasty]

Maybe i wasnt clear. You should not connect a deep cycle battery and a standard battery to the same charging circuit with some sort of isolation. I never stated that you could not. What i stated is that if the battery are different by their function then they should not be connect to the same charging circuit. I apologize if there was any confusion. Here are some links to better get my point across.


4Runner Dual Batteries


Dual Battery Installation

how-to: dual batteries - RONIN Wheelers


dual batteries in off-road vehicles - Cars Forum - GardenWeb


Dual battery setup


http://www.bcae1.com/battiso.htm

 

[woody]

I run nothing but Red tops, no complaints....duals in the 80, single in the 40...

anyways....WHERE is your winch connected? Side posts or Top posts?

MUST be connected to the top posts, or you WILL have battery problems....

 

[cruiserman33]

Battery problems I always winching with 2k revs, never fail, and my winch its no better than a warm (its same )

 

[solidfrontaxle]

So the questions I have are...

- Is this battery bad? Is the Optima brand not all that I expected?
> yes, it's bad. Optima has been going downhill for some time now!

- Did I over tax the system with all the winching combined with all the rest of the electrical load?
> probably. Having a weak battery meant that your reserve wasn't enough. So you drained out of it faster than the ALT can recharge the battery.

Is this normal?
> no. If you have a good quality battery, this is a non issue.

- Should I go with a dual setup and run the winch accessories off the second battery?
> no need for a dual batt setup. Just buy a good quality battery like the Die Hard Platinum that I and others have purchased. A quick search will reveal threads with pics.

I totally disagree. Many many people swear by optimas. The few who got a bad one cause a ruckus so they have a bad reputation on forums. You'll never hear a ruckus about the millions that don't fail.

He definitely did tax his electrical system. Anytime a winch is used like that it will.

Yes it is NORMAL. A battery that is drained under those circumstances that is not designed for it should fail like that.

The diehard platinum is a deep cycle battery. One designed to handle heavy winching, unlike the red top. Also, I think if you can afford it, a dual battery system IS a good idea. Even if you do have a deep cycle battery, the winch still drains it the same amount. It just doesn't ruin the battery like it does a starting battery. But once you are drained to that point, the backup battery sure is nice to get you started again.