Old Man Emu Lift Issues In Rear

[RumBum]

I recently installed the below OME lift on my 2013 TLC200:

OME2723 Rear Coil Springs
61029 Rear Shocks
91005 Front Struts
OME2703 Front Springs
Dobinsons UCA's

Then I had the truck aligned. It drives straight down the road and corners just fine. The issue I'm having is every time I hit a dip in the road, go over a railroad crossing or basically compress the suspension, the rear end feels like it's swaying or pulling side to side. I've noticed the rear axle is pulled about 1/2" to the driver (left) side and sticks out a little further. Is this pretty common on a lifted 200? Will a rear adjustable panhard rod / track bar fix the rear end sway? Or will it just help center the axle again? It seems like most people with a similar lift don't have to do anything other than install the new springs and struts & shocks. For the heck of it, I had another shop do an alignment today and they suggested the adjustable panhard rod too.

My 200 currently has front bull bar & winch, rear drawers and a full 33" spare under the truck. I even added a couple hundred pounds to the rear per ARB's recommendation & given OME2723's constant load of 250-440#'s. The extra weight actually made the side to side jog more pronounced. I'm running out of ideas and I'm pretty sure I've reached the end of Mud searching for answers. Let me know if anyone has some input.

 

[terdrocket]

Maybe rear springs installed opposite? (Driver's installed on Passenger side, vice versa.)

 

[RET2]

Need adjustable pan hard bar to center rear axle?

 

[RumBum]

Maybe rear springs installed opposite? (Driver's installed on Passenger side, vice versa.)

Left side B spring, Right side A spring. I don’t think swapped springs would cause the axle jogging side to side though.

 

[RET2]

I believe the offset is initiated by lifting condition.

 

[RumBum]

Also took it to my Toyota dealer today so they could take a look. They suggesting putting new OEM equipment back on it. Not much help from them.

 

[TeCKis300]

The rear moving side to side is common to lifted solid rear axle rigs. The higher it's lifted, the more pronounced the effect. You're on the right path as it is indeed associated with the panhard bar. And how lifting the rig displaces the axle towards the drivers side.

As the suspension cycles and compresses, it will effectively pull the axle back to center relative to the chassis. This causes the side to side motions you're experiencing. I get a chuckle every time I hear "I got xx suspension and my rig now handles awesome". It's one of many suspension geometry impacts in a lifted rig.

Unfortunately, an adjustable panhard bar will do nothing to remove this side to side pull. It will only re-center the axle at the lifted height. Then will poke further out the passenger side as it cycles, causing the same motions.

What's really needed to solve this is something that not yet available to the 200-series. A panhard relocation bracket that reduces the angle of the panhard bar at the new lifted height. To decrease its angle and reduce left to right displacement with suspension cycling.

This 80-series LC thread might help. Maybe we can encourage a vender to build one for the 200-series.

Delta Vehicle Systems Panhard Lift Bracket, 3" & 5"

Howdy folks! By now you’ve probably seen @woody's Panhard Lift Bracket (PLB) review thread (Review: Delta VS Panhard Lift Bracket). Whether you have seen the review or not, it’s time for an official Delta Vehicle Systems (DVS) thread on these things now that we have finalized it. We designed a...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[RET2]

The rear moving side to side is common to lifted solid rear axle rigs. The higher it's lifted, the more pronounced the effect. You're on the right path as it is indeed associated with the panhard bar. And how lifting the rig displaces the axle towards the drivers side.

As the suspension cycles and compresses, it will effectively pull the axle back to center relative to the chassis. This causes the side to side motions you're experiencing. I get a chuckle every time I hear "I got xx suspension and my rig now handles awesome". It's one of many suspension geometry impacts in a lifted rig.

Unfortunately, an adjustable panhard bar will do nothing to remove this side to side pull. It will only re-center the axle at the lifted height. Then will poke further out the passenger side as it cycles, causing the same motions.

What's really needed to solve this is something that not yet available to the 200-series. A panhard relocation bracket that reduces the angle of the panhard bar at the new lifted height. To decrease its angle and reduce left to right displacement with suspension cycling.

This 80-series LC thread might help. Maybe we can encourage a vender to build one for the 200-series.

Delta Vehicle Systems Panhard Lift Bracket, 3" & 5"

Howdy folks! By now you’ve probably seen @woody's Panhard Lift Bracket (PLB) review thread (Review: Delta VS Panhard Lift Bracket). Whether you have seen the review or not, it’s time for an official Delta Vehicle Systems (DVS) thread on these things now that we have finalized it. We designed a...

forum.ih8mud.com

Thanks for the explanation, cleared up some questions I had.

 

[Markuson]

3 thots/

-Make sure they put taller spring on passenger. Taller rear springs goes on passenger on US 200...same side as the fuel tank.

-If it’s rocking side to side, make sure they fully closed KdSS valves. If those were left open, it will sloppily was all over.

-Ignore Toyota advice on OEM springs.

 

[RumBum]

3 thots/

-Make sure they put taller spring on passenger. Taller rear springs goes on passenger on US 200...same side as the fuel tank.

-If it’s rocking side to side, make sure they fully closed KdSS valves. If those were left open, it will sloppily was all over.

-Ignore Toyota advice on OEM springs.

Springs are correct side. I actually opened the KDSS valves again to make sure it was as level as I could get then closed them up. The Toyota recommendation was amuzingto me. I’m just surprised my sway is so noticiable. It doesn’t seem like anyone really complains about it, but it seems to be a real thing.

I think I read one of your build threads and you put an adjustable panhard bar on. Did you notice and difference with it?

 

[RumBum]

The rear moving side to side is common to lifted solid rear axle rigs. The higher it's lifted, the more pronounced the effect. You're on the right path as it is indeed associated with the panhard bar. And how lifting the rig displaces the axle towards the drivers side.

As the suspension cycles and compresses, it will effectively pull the axle back to center relative to the chassis. This causes the side to side motions you're experiencing. I get a chuckle every time I hear "I got xx suspension and my rig now handles awesome". It's one of many suspension geometry impacts in a lifted rig.

Unfortunately, an adjustable panhard bar will do nothing to remove this side to side pull. It will only re-center the axle at the lifted height. Then will poke further out the passenger side as it cycles, causing the same motions.

What's really needed to solve this is something that not yet available to the 200-series. A panhard relocation bracket that reduces the angle of the panhard bar at the new lifted height. To decrease its angle and reduce left to right displacement with suspension cycling.

This 80-series LC thread might help. Maybe we can encourage a vender to build one for the 200-series.

Delta Vehicle Systems Panhard Lift Bracket, 3" & 5"

Howdy folks! By now you’ve probably seen @woody's Panhard Lift Bracket (PLB) review thread (Review: Delta VS Panhard Lift Bracket). Whether you have seen the review or not, it’s time for an official Delta Vehicle Systems (DVS) thread on these things now that we have finalized it. We designed a...

forum.ih8mud.com

I guess where I’m baffled is I’ve had a lifted 80 with no issues like this. And I currently have a lifted 100 with no side-to-side sway issues. What is different with the 200 where this is so noticeable now? And how come more people aren’t complaining about it?

 

[TeCKis300]

That's a fair question. I don't have your other cars to compare, so at best I'll postulate with some thoughts.

I notice this behavior on my stock height LX570. And my previous LX470 to a lesser degree. It's especially pronounced on bigger hits and even more with significant load in the rear, like when I tow. It's also definitely there when I'm charging hard on backroads and take big bumps or whoops in the road. Part of the "charm" of a body on frame solid rear axle vehicle. As some background, I road raced cars back in the day so I'll say I'm a bit more calibrated to various vehicle motions.

Why is the 200-series more effected? It's a tighter chassis than the 100-series and definitely the 80-series. What would be axle deflection on previous cruisers that are just absorbed in the softer bushings, tires, and suspension all around. The 200-series is more taught, translating these motions more directly to the chassis.

Why many don't complain? Most don't know what to feel for or accept mod compromise they spent their hard earned money on. Many drive slow, especially with the heavier built rigs. Many of these aftermarket suspensions are firmer with significantly higher spring rates - giving the perceived effect of better handling with sharper turn in while attenuating suspension motions so it doesn't cycle as much for the same bump. They put large sidewall tires that will absorb some of the side to side motions.

How much lift do you have, particularly at the rear of the vehicle?

 

[RumBum]

That's a fair question. I don't have your other cars to compare, so at best I'll postulate with some thoughts.

I notice this behavior on my stock height LX570. And my previous LX470 to a lesser degree. It's especially pronounced on bigger hits and even more with significant load in the rear, like when I tow. It's also definitely there when I'm charging hard on backroads and take big bumps or whoops in the road. Part of the "charm" of a body on frame solid rear axle vehicle. As some background, I road raced cars back in the day so I'll say I'm a bit more calibrated to various vehicle motions.

Why is the 200-series more effected? It's a tighter chassis than the 100-series and definitely the 80-series. What would be axle deflection on previous cruisers that are just absorbed in the softer bushings, tires, and suspension all around. The 200-series is more taught, translating these motions more directly to the chassis.

Why many don't complain? Most don't know what to feel for or accept mod compromise they spent their hard earned money on. Many drive slow, especially with the heavier built rigs. Many of these aftermarket suspensions are firmer with significantly higher spring rates - giving the perceived effect of better handling with sharper turn in while attenuating suspension motions so it doesn't cycle as much for the same bump. They put large sidewall tires that will absorb some of the side to side motions.

How much lift do you have, particularly at the rear of the vehicle?

Some good info right there. I didn’t measure the stock height before the new suspension install. I’m guessing with the heavy OME2723 springs it’s probably around 2”. I’ve got about an 1-1/4” to 1-1/2” rake with the front end lower. Wondering if the front was a little higher, or rear lower, if it would handle the bumps better.

 

[afgman786]

Some good info right there. I didn’t measure the stock height before the new suspension install. I’m guessing with the heavy OME2723 springs it’s probably around 2”. I’ve got about an 1-1/4” to 1-1/2” rake with the front end lower. Wondering if the front was a little higher, or rear lower, if it would handle the bumps better.

That steep rake could play a factor in it... most of the people lifted don't have that much of rake front to back so things are more level.

 

[RumBum]

Today I ordered a Dobinsons adjustable panhard rod and some OME2721 springs to swap in. I'm hoping this combo gets me back to a better ride from the rear end. I definitely don't have enough weight in the rear right now to keep the 2723's happy.

 

[RET2]

I believe @TeCKis300 crushed it, just extending the pan hard bar will help center the wheels but won't change the geometric issue. I agree a drop bracket can fix the issue.

 

[Haggis]

I went through something akin to what you are describing a couple years ago. I thought the KDSS was malfunctioning and I took it back to the shop to have everything inspected. Nobody could give me much help so I chalked it up to a new/hot suspension and drove her all over the West. After around 6,000 miles my truck began to "settle down" and exhibit somewhat of a normal ride. Just got back from a long rode trip and I have to say the issue has been totally resolved.

 

[OregonLC]

That amount of rake is fine and you don't need to adjust the panhard. Moving the axle over won't make it stop squirming. I'm at similar height, rake, weight and year and don't have those symptoms so it's something else. I started off with rear springs that were too soft (IVD progressive) and switched to the OME 2724. It could be that your springs are too soft for your load and excessive motion is indeed exaggerating the lateral movement of the axle giving the feeling of instability in the rear.

I know it's popular in the truck crowd to dial out the rake. Often you see truck owners installing a '3/1' leveling kit (or whatever). In my experience, IFS Land Cruisers (both 100 and 200) don't drive well when level. The 100 was very easy to 'dial a height' for the front. When I first set it level it had really bad torque steer even when aligned to spec. Lowering it back down to a 1-1/2" rake and re-aligning reduced that to almost nothing. Embrace the rake. Love the rake.

 

[CharlieS]

Just wondering here - I don't have the same setup on my 200 - but I wonder if all of the weight in the front end (winch, bumper, etc) is shifting the vehicle's center of gravity forward, exacerbating any "normal" weirdness introduced by a lift? I found my 80 series' handling dynamics changed a lot with an ARB front bumper, and it also had an OME (medium) lift. I added a heavy home built drawer system filled with way too much junk, and it seemed to help. Again, not a 200, but maybe something to look at. It is one of the reasons I'm resisting a bull bar on my 200. I love the utility and aesthetics, but it is a lot of weight hanging off the nose.

 

[OregonLC]

I have a 12k winch, 2nd batt, and MT bumper up front with only drawers and a fridge in the back (Tupperware factory bumper)...