New 8 speed transmission... (2 Viewers)

[Markuson]

What I find perplexing...is that I've never heard of any particular benefit to the 8 vs. the 6.

I can IMAGINE a couple...like...mayyybe...being able to choose a better RPM while towing up-hill...but I feel like I'm reaching a bit...

Anyone wanna suggest a true benefit? I don't have a dog in this race... Just curious.

 

[Angelo1]

I don't think it's the 8 speeds being the problem but possibly the transmission or CPU because I had a rental Mercedes GLS 450 that has 9 speeds and it was buttery smooth going over the mountain passes with the family loaded on board with luggage. Note- I was in cruise control at 75mph and it never hunted once for a gear

 

[chilibit]

I think the TCU decision logic is a work in progress. Toyota can be very, painstakingly, patient. In my mind the iterative improvement of a product is embedded in the Toyota DNA. Further along we will sing the praises---today is a step down a path. In my decades (4+) of living with Land Cruisers I repeatedly find that those small smudges were actually the footprints of engineers who were there before me and who had done a remarkably good job with the design and implementation. Are you a Porsche aficionado? Same same.

 

[LALC]

To avoid the gear hunting going up/down hills using cruise control, have you tried putting the ECT in Power mode? This has helped a lot with my 6-speed transmission and probably would help with your 8-speed.

HTH

Second'ed... I run in ECT mode 100% of the time now and my '16 doesn't gear hunt uphill or downhill. It doesn't at all outside of the cruise control issue I mentioned earlier (slowing down 3-5mph). Side benefit is I've gotten better gas mileage in ECT.

 

[Sandroad]

To avoid the gear hunting going up/down hills using cruise control, have you tried putting the ECT in Power mode? This has helped a lot with my 6-speed transmission and probably would help with your 8-speed.

HTH

I have used the Power mode only while towing and only intermittently. With your encouraging experience, I'll consistently use that for a while and report back.

 

[Canyonero]

8 speeds is too many. For any kind of car, 6 is a happy medium.

I hope Toyota does not start playing the numbers game that US manufacturers like to do.

Toyota cars are reliable because they use the same equipment across multiple lines. These one offs without much field testing prove to be unreliable in lots of circumstances.

I have a 6 speed in my 2015 and I think it is perfectly programmed and matched to the 200. Even with 34's, it does well. I agree it seems to be the right transmission for the 200.

But I think that's related to the programming of the tranny itself more than the number of gears. I mention that because I've owned an 8-speed transmission (Lexus RC-F) and now a 10-speed in my LC 500. The high number of gears in those two cars has been virtually unnoticeable- but this is because they were programmed well. No hunting, more intuitive, etc.

My point is that I think those high gear units can be good, I'm shocked that Toyota didn't work out the 8-speed kinks for the LC. Ive so far read the 10-speed in the new Raptor is pretty good.

Maybe manufacturers should just get on with it and put a CVT in everything.

 

[TeCKis300]

What I find perplexing...is that I've never heard of any particular benefit to the 8 vs. the 6.

I can IMAGINE a couple...like...mayyybe...being able to choose a better RPM while towing up-hill...but I feel like I'm reaching a bit...

Anyone wanna suggest a true benefit? I don't have a dog in this race... Just curious.

Putting efficiency aside, it's all about gear ratio width, or spread. From the tallest to the shortest ratio. The 6-speed has a spread of 5.67. 8-speed 7.14. A 25% better spread. Remember back as kid, moving from a 14-speed to a 21-speed. That was a big deal. Because now we could climb some serious hills. At a crawl, but not having to get off the bike was awesome for the first time.

Which gets into the second major benefit for serious off-roaders like you. Crawl ratio.

6-speed: 34.1:1
8-speed: 41.5:1

For comparison.
4Runner 34:1
Basic Wrangler 39:1
Rubicon Wrangler 73:1

Umm. that's like saying on a 6 speed: gearing in 1-5 is like an 8 speed with 4.30 gears instead of 3.30s.

No it's not. I think you misspoke here or I might not be understanding. The 8-speed is geared much lower, even on account of the 3.307 rear end. Looking at this effective gearing table (which includes the transmission and rear end), it's the 6-speed with a 4.88 that comes closest to the 8-speed with stock rear end.

I get your point on the highest gear. But if we had software that limited the highest gear to 7 in the 8-speed, there would be no other mod necessary! The 7th gear effective ratio is not so low such that it couldn't turn a rig that has AT tires, rack, and lift either. It really would be nicely setup.

 

[TeCKis300]

Maybe manufacturers should just get on with it and put a CVT in everything.

Hahaha, nooooo. I dislike the disconnected rubber band feel and sound of CVT's. Or perhaps the pinnacle solution of a single speed transmission (a la Tesla): no shifting, no waiting. But I like burning dinosaurs.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Putting efficiency aside, it's all about gear ratio width, or spread. From the tallest to the shortest ratio. The 6-speed has a spread of 5.67. 8-speed 7.14. A 25% better spread. Remember back as kid, moving from a 14-speed to a 21-speed. That was a big deal. Because now we could climb some serious hills. At a crawl, but not having to get off the bike was awesome for the first time.

Which gets into the second major benefit for serious off-roaders like you. Crawl ratio.

6-speed: 34.1:1
8-speed: 41.5:1

For comparison.
4Runner 34:1
Basic Wrangler 39:1
Rubicon Wrangler 73:1



No it's not. I think you misspoke here or I might not be understanding. The 8-speed is geared much lower, even on account of the 3.307 rear end. Looking at this effective gearing table (which includes the transmission and rear end), it's the 6-speed with a 4.88 that comes closest to the 8-speed with stock rear end.

I get your point on the highest gear. But if we had software that limited the highest gear to 7 in the 8-speed, there would be no other mod necessary! The 7th gear effective ratio is not so low such that it couldn't turn a rig that has AT tires, rack, and lift either. It really would be nicely setup.

View attachment 1519203

This thread was a month or so ago, I'm not sure what gear ratio calculator you're using. Not saying you're wrong, it's just I came up with different numbers, from what I remember.

Either way, I've now driven a 8 speed, with and without a bumper and lift, and I promise the 8 speed sucks just a ltiile worse than the 6 speed before it is regeared. It's about 150 RPM lower, and that is enough to keep the torque converter unlocked most of the time.

I can already tap into our ECUs and watch everything happening. Your gear calculators aside, the 8 speed is building a lot of excess heat and putting more load on the engine, making more wear and less MPG. When you can see your timing, air/fuel, etc, real time while driving down a highway, it moves you into a whole new level of understanding what really matters. Plus it's fun to turn the truck off with a laptop.

8 speed is not even sold on 2017 200s in Australia. It's just there to compete in America, because more is better in America. Just wanted to say that again.

I think the 8 speed is better than the 6 speed if both are regeared, and I think the 8 speed is better under a stock truck than the 6 speed under a stock truck.

But the 6 speed with stock gearing is better under a modified truck, than a 8 speed with stock gearing under a modified truck.

That real world driving, which is what we've been kind of going back and forth over. A gear calculator isn't the do all end all, your not taking into account the T/C lock timing, the 5.7s power band at certain RPMs, engine load, or changes to aerodynamics.

But again, I don't care about crawl ratios, your number of a wrangler rubicon was the manual. The auto is about 46:1. But autos almost double your usable crawl ratios over a manual. Gearing is kinda my thing, I've regeared close to 60 trucks, and quite a few with multiple sets. That's why I'm a little passionate about this, because if heard this argument before, and it only works on paper.

What I keep caring about is minimizing unnecessary shifting and limiting riding on the highway with the TC unlocked for miles on end, but also keeping engine load in check. Do you know when yours is unlocked?

 

[TeCKis300]

Yeah, sorry I missed your post a month ago. Came across it today so I thought I'd respond. I totally get that you're passionate about it and I can certainly hear your experience. I'm not looking to undermine anything you've said and I agree much more than I disagree. Like you, I'm big into this stuff. I'm not just coming from paper here as I do tune and tweak cars endlessly. I do tune turbo'd Lexus's, and my personal Porsche. Not just the superficial stuff, but the full blown maps. Yes, I absolutely see how just changing tire size, even slightly puts the motor into completely different parts of the load, timing, and fueling tables.

You're still coming at this from cruise speed. I don't disagree with you. The final drive ratio at top gear in the 8-speed is 2.222 vs 2.298 in the 6-speed. Which agrees with your 150rpm observation. But 7th is 2.701.

Again, if we had SOFTWARE to limit the transmission to 7, it will lug the 35 better than a 6-speed in top gear lugging a stock 32.1" tire!

Then there's all the awesome benefits of the lower gear 8-speed for crawling!

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Yeah, sorry I missed your post a month ago. Came across it today so I thought I'd respond. I totally get that you're passionate about it and I can certainly hear your experience. I'm not looking to undermine anything you've said and I agree much more than I disagree. Like you, I'm big into this stuff. I'm not just coming from paper here as I do tune and tweak cars endlessly. I do tune turbo'd Lexus's, and my personal Porsche. Not just the superficial stuff, but the full blown maps. Yes, I absolutely see how just changing tire size, even slightly puts the motor into completely different parts of the load, timing, and fueling tables.

You're still coming at this from cruise speed. I don't disagree with you. The final drive ratio at top gear in the 8-speed is 2.222 vs 2.298 in the 6-speed. Which agrees with your 150rpm observation. But 7th is 2.701.

Again, if we had SOFTWARE to limit the transmission to 7, it will lug the 35 better than a 6-speed in top gear lugging a stock 32.1" tire!

Then there's all the awesome benefits of the lower gear 8-speed for crawling!

Totally with you on all that, and I agree that the 1-7 speeds of a 8 speed are better. But the software piece of limiting to 7th gear still won't solve the vaccine pressure that the 5.7 deals with at that RPM and load. So while it will feel better driving as the T/C can still lock, it won't yield as good of other things than a 6 speed in 6th.

Yes you get that nice low 1st gear, but the 1st gear in a 6 speed is already all you need. So that's why I'm emphasizing the top end. Yes the 8 speeds 1st gear is great, but the 6speed in 1st will still hold the truck back quite well when going down steep inclines. Enough to where I won't put much more worry into it on the rubicon.

I think for the guy that just what's a small lift and a 33, maybe a bumper. A 6speed is a better option all around. If a regear is in the future, then a 8 speed will be better around.

Limiting the trans to 7th speed by limiting software is just an intermediate fix, not a solution, in my opinion. That's where I feel that software has its limitations, the engine make a certain amount of power, and a big mechanical gear is the only way to truest make more reliable power.

 

[Sandroad]

With the advice of @gaijin and @LALC, I'm running ECT Power mode all the time now and the 8 speed is MUCH better behaved. A recent 1200 mile trip was a lot better with the transmission shift patterns. It's as though that's the programming it should have had as the base shifting mode, IMHO. It now holds gears better without as much "hunting" and the upshifts are still smooth. Even downshifts are smoother, as the transmission doesn't seem to wait as long to drop a gear.

It's too bad there is no direct way to communicate real-life info to Toyota about things like this. The only info Toyota probably gets from dealers is when there is money involved as a result of outright failures.

 

[LWA55DAL]

Jumping in here guys. My '16 200 series only has about 7k on the clock as we drive the '11 every day and I really can't stand the early shift patterns on the transmission. I have had the TSB about the hard shifts for the transmission done and while it was a slight improvement it certainly did not fix the issue in stop and go traffic. Does anyone know if there was a physical transmission upgrade done between the '16 and the '18's? I am seriously thinking about just trading it in. Highway driving if fine, but the stop and go traffic is maddening and occasionally I get a really odd shift from a stop. any thoughts or experience from others would be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[LALC]

Jumping in here guys. My '16 200 series only has about 7k on the clock as we drive the '11 every day and I really can't stand the early shift patterns on the transmission. I have had the TSB about the hard shifts for the transmission done and while it was a slight improvement it certainly did not fix the issue in stop and go traffic. Does anyone know if there was a physical transmission upgrade done between the '16 and the '18's? I am seriously thinking about just trading it in. Highway driving if fine, but the stop and go traffic is maddening and occasionally I get a really odd shift from a stop. any thoughts or experience from others would be appreciated.
Thanks

Have you tried putting in ECT Power mode?

 

[LWA55DAL]

Yes but I should not have to do that to improve the shift pattern. It helps but still too rough IMO.

 

[Sandroad]

What @LALC said. In my ‘17, it helps the transmission hold a gear longer. But, in the long stretch of cold weather we just had here (averaging single digit F for a couple weeks), the 8 speed shifted rougher around town for sure. It never really warmed up.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I recently been test driving a few 16+ 200s as my parents are looking for their new adventure truck. My dad just can’t stand how 8 or more speed transmissions shift.

What I told him, and what we all need to understand is that it’s all about fuel economy. And the way to that is to speed up quickly to a speed, then stay there. Limiting shifts and getting better MPG.

The problem is no one really drives like that in traffic. You need to speed up a bit, slow down, give space to the next car, or sometimes not give space beciae someone will cut in and give you an unsafe amount of space.

So I’m never a guy that says this is how it is, but I will on this one. This is how new transmissions are, and will be, until we go electric.

The days of slowly speeding up are over, the driver needs to get to that speed more briskly and hold it. Drive like that, and the 8 speed is rather smooth in my opinion.

I don’t really like it, so I feel your frustration, that why the 2016+ didn’t have much that appealed to me, so I bought a cheap (relatively) 2011 to give me a ton of extra money for adventures, fuel, and parts.

 

[Sinister]

I recently been test driving a few 16+ 200s as my parents are looking for their new adventure truck. My dad just can’t stand how 8 or more speed transmissions shift.

What I told him, and what we all need to understand is that it’s all about fuel economy. And the way to that is to speed up quickly to a speed, then stay there. Limiting shifts and getting better MPG.

The problem is no one really drives like that in traffic. You need to speed up a bit, slow down, give space to the next car, or sometimes not give space beciae someone will cut in and give you an unsafe amount of space.

So I’m never a guy that says this is how it is, but I will on this one. This is how new transmissions are, and will be, until we go electric.

The days of slowly speeding up are over, the driver needs to get to that speed more briskly and hold it. Drive like that, and the 8 speed is rather smooth in my opinion.

I don’t really like it, so I feel your frustration, that why the 2016+ didn’t have much that appealed to me, so I bought a cheap (relatively) 2011 to give me a ton of extra money for adventures, fuel, and parts.

The 16+ fuel economy with the 8 speed tranny is the same as my 2011 transmission without it 13/18, no?

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

The 16+ fuel economy with the 8 speed tranny is the same as my 2011 transmission without it 13/18, no?

completely correct. I should of elaborated on that more in the "we don't drive like that" comment I made. When we drive really world, there just isn't much benefit to the 8 speed. Might also be why Australia 200s still run the 6 speed from what I last read.

But in theory, the exact right rpm for the load needed will get better millage.

US buyers just want numbers, and 8 is more than 6, so it must be better. That's why the US got an 8 speed. Read post #41.

What I really think is happening. The US 200 2016-2018 will test the 8 speed for the world. Then with the 300 series, the 8 speed will be combined with a smaller displacement V8 with some forced induction. And that will actually give some better MPG numbers.

 

[MrCWineMan]

I’ve really had no issues post the TSB transmission software reflash save for a rough shift on a rolling stop. Easy solution: actually stop when you stop. That is a surprisingly hard habit to break for me, but now that I’ve gotten the hang of it the 8 speed works just fine for me. Is is as nice as the ZF 8 speed in my other car? No. Would I say that there is something actually wrong with it or that I need to drive it in powerrrrrr mode to make it drive well? Also No.

I wonder based on the varied opinions out there on the 8 speed if there aren’t some variations out there and while some are fine, others aren’t.