Lithium Battery?

[2014 LEX 570 GA]

I searched, but did not find much discussion around battery brands, types.

I need to replace my OEM battery and would like to buy something a little more robust than OEM for my future build needs.

It seems a Lithium is the way to go these days? Anyone recommend a good middle of the road one? Do not necessarily need the top of the line.

I see Optima and Odyssey seem to often top the ranks among brands.

 

[lx200inAR]

I plan to follow the below thread. The alternator in the 200 series is designed for FLA batteries. There are ways around that, but personally I don't see any "good enough" benefits from other chemistries to warrant going away from a FLA battery. It takes a pretty special Lithium battery to make a good starting battery and would require a pretty good BMS as well. It has been done, but wouldn't be cheap or easy.

@grinchy has kicked around the idea of a home made LTO cell battery which would be cool, but that hasn't really been done yet.

Homebrew Single Group 31 Battery Install

Took a cue from this thread and ordered a high quality Deka 1131PMF battery. It's a flooded lead acid which has the advantage of full compatibility with the stock smart alternator charging profile (and longest life prospects). With often sought features of AGM including: - Spill proof - Heavy...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[Sandroad]

Lithium iron phosphate batteries are not a good choice for a starting battery. Their battery management systems are designed for deep cycle use. They do not like extreme cold and won’t even charge below 32F. They require specific charging voltage and profiles that are not a match for a vehicle alternator. They can be used successfully as a 2nd battery with a DC-DC charging system and do better installed in the cabin rather than under the hood.

Try again on your searches. Battery brand and type are by far one of the most common threads on Mud. You’ll also find lots of threads on terminal types and installation parts for larger size batteries like group 31. The standard battery is a group 27F.

My take-home message from my experience is to use a good old flooded lead acid battery for a starting battery in your choice of brand and capacity.

 

[Julian73]

Lithium iron phosphate batteries are not a good choice for a starting battery. Their battery management systems are designed for deep cycle use. They do not like extreme cold and won’t even charge below 32F. They require specific charging voltage and profiles that are not a match for a vehicle alternator. They can be used successfully as a 2nd battery with a DC-DC charging system and do better installed in the cabin rather than under the hood.

Try again on your searches. Battery brand and type are by far one of the most common threads on Mud. You’ll also find lots of threads on terminal types and installation parts for larger size batteries like group 31. The standard battery is a group 27F.

My take-home message from my experience is to use a good old flooded lead acid battery for a starting battery in your choice of brand and capacity.

Tell that ti the sports car industry that has been selling cars with LFP batteries for the last 10 years. They work well enough.

 

[BadReligion]

Tell that ti the sports car industry that has been selling cars with LFP batteries for the last 10 years. They work well enough.

Big difference here. Many of the high end sports cars that use Li for weight savings have charging systems that were specifically designed for Li. Not to mention most are garage queens that sit in climate controlled environments and on battery tenders. Not the case in the 200. Even a standard garage battery tender will not properly charge a Li battery and lead to premature failure.

Stick with a good flooded lead acid and just plan on changing it every 4-5 years. Even the AGMs are not really any better, just less maintenance and mess.

As others have said, Li would be a great second battery, with the proper management system.

 

[Sandroad]

Tell that ti the sports car industry that has been selling cars with LFP batteries for the last 10 years. They work well enough.

Different use case. My posts on Mud are related to the 200 series LC/LX.

 

[Julian73]

Different use case. My posts on Mud are related to the 200 series LC/LX.

Not really, we are talking about the stability of an LFP battery in engine bay either charged from alternator or from a DC-DC charger. I've run LFP in sports cars for years, the BMS prevents extremes on charging hi/lo temp and hi voltage. My sports cars (Porsche GT3, Lotus and a race car) has the same factory alternator whether fitted with lead battery or LFP. My LC200 has a underhood LFP (Renogy 100AHr. RBT100LFP12SH-US) with heater to allow charging below 32 deg's and I use a RedArc BCDC as the charger, but thats not because of concern about my alternator compatibility, but rather the issue of two batteries that are not equivalent.

 

[Fisher23]

I run the the Odyssey for my main and SLEE has a tray to fit a group size 31. For my aux battery I run a Lithium Valence. Some people get the battle born for $1000+ or you can look around and get a Valence for way less and it's just as good.

One rule about Lithium you do need to isolate it from the main battery with a dc to dc charger on the LC200's.

 

[chilibit]

I tried a very fine lithium battery in a track car to manage corner weight. Seven liter motor. I ended up tossing it. It soured me on lithium for starting and I went back to flooded from Toyota in my 13 LC. I trust it. I keep 8 other vehicles on AGMs but they are usually on battery tenders. I have not had issues with the Deka AGMs but I watch them like a hawk.

 

[linuxgod]

If you live in a cold climate, LiFePO4 (LFP) batteries are not acceptable for your vehicle. As @Sandroad notes, you cannot charge them below 32F or you will rapidly destroy them, and you cannot discharge below ~0F. They also have very drastic amperage drops as you approach or drop below freezing. LFP are designed for deep cycle use only. I know a thing or two about them as I built a 270Ah LFP pack for my camping trailer.

AGM batteries are OK if you need to deep cycle but not really necessary on our trucks unless you're trying to power a 12V fridge or other accessories when the truck is off. Their charging profile is different though and you'll need to hack your alternator setup a bit to properly charge them, otherwise you're only going to get them to about 90% capacity. You're much less likely to get corrosion on your terminals with AGM which is a plus. They cost ~2x a basic flooded battery though.

My $0.02 which I've said before is just buy a cheap wet-cell/flooded battery. They're $100-120 and just replace them every 3-5 years. You can get extra life out of them by occasionally topping off with distilled water instead of doing what 98% of people do and ignoring them until they don't charge worth a damn (at which point the water has been low for too long and the plates are toast)

 

[KJun]

Have been running a LiFePo4 Valence as my main since 2018 and it hasn't blown up yet. No issues starting in cold weather or otherwise and of course no problem running all accessories including fridge. Picked up the Valence 138AH U27-12XP used for cheaper than an AGM and put it in mostly as an experiment and so far has been holding up well and definitely prefer it over LA/AGM.

 

[sdnative]

Have been running a LiFePo4 Valence as my main since 2018 and it hasn't blown up yet. No issues starting in cold weather or otherwise and of course no problem running all accessories including fridge. Picked up the Valence 138AH U27-12XP used for cheaper than an AGM and put it in mostly as an experiment and so far has been holding up well and definitely prefer it over LA/AGM.

Your Valence XP does not have a BMS so you should not expect any protection that a BMS would provide such as low/high voltage cutoff, low temp charge cutoff, cell temp monitoring, etc.

 

[sdnative]

For my aux battery I run a Lithium Valence. Some people get the battle born for $1000+ or you can look around and get a Valance for way less and it's just as good.

The Valence are good batteries in the right conditions, but they are all used at this point. Yes you can generally get them cheap-ish (~$200?), but hard to say how they have been treated. I have had a few of the smaller RT series with BMS and none of them capacity tested anywhere near rating.

It's a bit of a stretch to say a used Valence without BMS is just as good as a brand new battleborn with BMS and full warranty.

 

[linuxgod]

There are tons of good threads on LFP at diysolarforum.com. There's a whole thread on why you shouldn't charge below 0F. Why you cannot charge LiFePO4 below 0 degrees Celsius - https://diysolarforum.com/threads/why-you-cannot-charge-lifepo4-below-0-degrees-celsius.2912/. That's not to say you can't do it, just that it will permanently harm the battery. (Note that it's cell temp, not ambient temp, so it's possible your cells can be a bit warmer than the air temp and still be "above 0C"

Now if your battery has a BMS (and many do have a cheap internal one) it should prevent you from doing really bad things like discharging or charging outside the cell temp range or over/under charging the cell voltages.

The Valence specs clearly state charging temp is 0C to 45 C and discharge is -10C to 50C. The chemistry of LFP batteries is all essentially the same. LFP is LFP is LFP. If you're using it to start when it's 0F out you're harming the battery. On top of that if you're not charging at 14V+ then you're never getting a full charge.

I don't know why you'd pay 3-4x the cost for a LFP battery to then abuse it and end up with a battery life that is equal to or less than a cheap FLA but do whatever you want I suppose.

Specs from Valence U27-12XP Lithium Ion Battery Module | Greentec Auto - https://www.greentecauto.com/hybrid-battery/repurposed-batteries/valence

Voltage (nominal) 12.8 V
Capacity @ C/5, 25 °C (typical) 138 Ah (New)
Energy 1.76 kWh (New)
Discharge Cont./Peak (30 sec) 150 A / 300 A
Discharge Cutoff Voltage 10 V
Recommended Charge Voltage 14.6 V
Charge Float Voltage Range 13.8 - 14.6 V
Recommended Charge CCCV ≤ 72 A to 14.6 V
Discharge Temperature -10 °C to 50 °C
Charge Temperature 0 °C to 45 °C
Self Discharge @ 25 °C < 2% per month
Terminal Hardware M8 x 1.25
Terminal Torque 25 Nm 222 in-lbs
Plastic Case Flame Retardant
IP Rating IP56

Features
• >4000 cycles at 80% DOD
• Create systems 12 - 1000 V
• Series and/or parallel operation
• Automatic cell monitoring & balancing
• Temperature monitoring of cells
• Rugged mechanical design
• Thread locking feature
• Footprint of Group 27 lead acid case
• Maintenance-free
• No hydrogen generation or gassing

Height: (excluding bolts) 225 mm 8.86”
Width: 172 mm 6.77”
Length: 306 mm 12.0”
Weight: 19.2 ± 0.1 kg 42.2 lbs
Cell Configuration: 4IFpR27/66-44

 

[Lester did that]

What do you mean by "more robust"? A properly rated brand name lead acid battery is very robust for a main battery. I hope your thoughts are not that one lithium battery will handle more electric load for accessories and keep a charge longer than a lead acid battery. I have heard someone say that at 4x4 shop and you could hear a pin drop after that comment.

The entire electrical system is designed to charge a lead acid battery. Also the volts from a lead acid battery. The LC is very sensitive in this respect. If the battery starts to get old or is beat up all sorts of strange things start happening. Some look major but its just a bad battery or a loose battery connection. 100's of posts on here about that.

It's a large SUV not a sports car or Tesla. So don't even entertain that hypothesis. Could you make a lithium ion battery work? Sure. If you throw enough money and time at a problem you probably might succeed. It might cause even more problems trying to figure it out. If its a personal challenge you just wanna make work because you want to make it work. Go for it and keep us posted on the progress. Heck it might be really simple?! But if ain't broke dont fix it saves me time and money.

Lithium batteries are just becoming popular for a dual battery system. They have pluses and minuses. Plus side is they are very light compared to AGM or lead/acid. So they can really lighten the load when you are adding a lot of weight. They don't need to be vented. That means you can safely put them inside anywhere. Not true with lead/acid or AGM. As they discharge you get consistent volt and amp power down to about 10% of the battery until you notice a drop. You can use almost the entire battery down to zero so the amp hour rating is more true than say a glass mat battery. It last longer with better power. They also charge faster. Minuses. The cost. A proper lithium ion battery is over $1000. And then you need to invest in an expensive system like a Redarch. Lithium batteries are sensitive. The cheap ones do not have the safety systems built in on the inside so if one cell goes bad you fry the entire thing. That is what separates a cheap lithium battery from an expensive one. You could burn out 3 AGM batteries for the cost of 1 decent lithium battery. If you took care of both with caution they should last about the same time. A lithium battery you might get a little more life out of.

What you get from lithium battery and proper management system is really clean stable electric. There is little to no fade on the power until the battery is dead. And you can almost run it down to zero. They charge faster especially with solar. But there is a monetary and complexity cost. Some folks are ok with that but everyone I know that has been running a dual battery setup for years are sticking to the AGMs for now until the cost comes down. ( full discloser. I do not run a dual battery system in my rig. But I have set them up for others multiple times with some success. )

 

[linuxgod]

What do you mean by "more robust"? A properly rated brand name lead acid battery is very robust for a main battery. I hope your thoughts are not that one lithium battery will handle more electric load for accessories and keep a charge longer than a lead acid battery. I have heard someone say that at 4x4 shop and you could hear a pin drop after that comment.

The entire electrical system is designed to charge a lead acid battery. Also the volts from a lead acid battery. The LC is very sensitive in this respect. If the battery starts to get old or is beat up all sorts of strange things start happening. Some look major but its just a bad battery or a loose battery connection. 100's of posts on here about that.

It's a large SUV not a sports car or Tesla. So don't even entertain that hypothesis. Could you make a lithium ion battery work? Sure. If you throw enough money and time at a problem you probably might succeed. It might cause even more problems trying to figure it out. If its a personal challenge you just wanna make work because you want to make it work. Go for it and keep us posted on the progress. Heck it might be really simple?! But if ain't broke dont fix it saves me time and money.

Lithium batteries are just becoming popular for a dual battery system. They have pluses and minuses. Plus side is they are very light compared to AGM or lead/acid. So they can really lighten the load when you are adding a lot of weight. They don't need to be vented. That means you can safely put them inside anywhere. Not true with lead/acid or AGM. As they discharge you get consistent volt and amp power down to about 10% of the battery until you notice a drop. You can use almost the entire battery down to zero so the amp hour rating is more true than say a glass mat battery. It last longer with better power. They also charge faster. Minuses. The cost. A proper lithium ion battery is over $1000. And then you need to invest in an expensive system like a Redarch. Lithium batteries are sensitive. The cheap ones do not have the safety systems built in on the inside so if one cell goes bad you fry the entire thing. That is what separates a cheap lithium battery from an expensive one. You could burn out 3 AGM batteries for the cost of 1 decent lithium battery. If you took care of both with caution they should last about the same time. A lithium battery you might get a little more life out of.

What you get from lithium battery and proper management system is really clean stable electric. There is little to no fade on the power until the battery is dead. And you can almost run it down to zero. They charge faster especially with solar. But there is a monetary and complexity cost. Some folks are ok with that but everyone I know that has been running a dual battery setup for years are sticking to the AGMs for now until the cost comes down. ( full discloser. I do not run a dual battery system in my rig. But I have set them up for others multiple times with some success. )

Nicely put

I went with a LFP for my trailer because I was able to get 3-4x the usable capacity for the same weight. In a trailer which was already at (or really about 1% over) GVWR when loaded down, I was very sensitive to the weight. If I had a 40' motorhome I would've bought a stack of FLA batteries and called it a day. I had to relocate my LFP from the tongue into the interior to ensure the temperature remains within the usable range when it's cold out, which was an additional hassle. Also I needed a different solar charge controller. Also my 120-to-12V converter no longer seems to charge the battery if I'm on shore power (which is fine because the solar panels take care of it).

BTW my math and logic for the decision:

105Ah Duracell FLA from Sam's Club $100. ~65#. It's unwise to drain below ~30% which means I had about 70-75Ah usable. 2 year warranty, I would typically end up replacing every ~3 years or so (normally around 85% max capacity at that point), though with better maintenance I can imagine going ~5 years.

271Ah DIY LFP battery. 4x 3.2V CATL cells, Overkill BMS, box, wiring, etc. ~$650 and ~55#. Ordered stuff from China and had to figure out assembly. No warranty. CATL says it's best to keep SoC between 10-90% so day-to-day that's 217Ah usable, or roughly 3x capacity. In a pinch these cells can be fully charged and fully drained without damage which is ~3.8x usable capacity as compared to the Duracell. CATL says these are good for 4000 cycles, which is at least 11 years of use, though if you keep in the 10-90% SoC range you'll get 50% more life out of them. If I was doing this again I'd just buy an off-the-shelf LFP as you can get ~200Ah batteries for around $900 now I think.

Ignoring battery life, practically I could've bought 4 Duracell batteries and managed slightly more capacity at 2/3 the cost, if an extra ~200# didn't bother me.

 

[linuxgod]

BTW in terms of weight savings of lithium vs lead acid in our LC... if the ~25# difference matters to you that much when driving a 7000# vehicle, buy the Walmart $99 special and spend the extra $500 on a treadmill instead.

 

[Fisher23]

The main advantages I see with lithium is the super fast re-charging (I think a deep cell take 6 to 8 hours to charge back up) plus they run constant voltage as they drain which keeps the fridge running.

 

[Julian73]

Nicely put

I went with a LFP for my trailer because I was able to get 3-4x the usable capacity for the same weight. In a trailer which was already at (or really about 1% over) GVWR when loaded down, I was very sensitive to the weight. If I had a 40' motorhome I would've bought a stack of FLA batteries and called it a day. I had to relocate my LFP from the tongue into the interior to ensure the temperature remains within the usable range when it's cold out, which was an additional hassle. Also I needed a different solar charge controller. Also my 120-to-12V converter no longer seems to charge the battery if I'm on shore power (which is fine because the solar panels take care of it).

BTW my math and logic for the decision:

105Ah Duracell FLA from Sam's Club $100. ~65#. It's unwise to drain below ~30% which means I had about 70-75Ah usable. 2 year warranty, I would typically end up replacing every ~3 years or so (normally around 85% max capacity at that point), though with better maintenance I can imagine going ~5 years.

271Ah DIY LFP battery. 4x 3.2V CATL cells, Overkill BMS, box, wiring, etc. ~$650 and ~55#. Ordered stuff from China and had to figure out assembly. No warranty. CATL says it's best to keep SoC between 10-90% so day-to-day that's 217Ah usable, or roughly 3x capacity. In a pinch these cells can be fully charged and fully drained without damage which is ~3.8x usable capacity as compared to the Duracell. CATL says these are good for 4000 cycles, which is at least 11 years of use, though if you keep in the 10-90% SoC range you'll get 50% more life out of them. If I was doing this again I'd just buy an off-the-shelf LFP as you can get ~200Ah batteries for around $900 now I think.

Ignoring battery life, practically I could've bought 4 Duracell batteries and managed slightly more capacity at 2/3 the cost, if an extra ~200# didn't bother me.

Only thing I would revise is that a FLA battery gets screwed if you cycle below 50%.

 

[linuxgod]

Only thing I would revise is that a FLA battery gets screwed if you cycle below 50%.

True. I buy deep cycle FLA for the trailer, not starting batteries, but even still you really shouldn’t go much below 50%. I’ve gone down around 20-30% in a pinch and it doesn’t seem to hurt long term so long as I kept it watered and ran an equalization charge regularly, but I wouldn’t recommend doing it frequently