Lessons Learned From Winching

[Southeast Overland]

...But then he's berated by internet experts who are trying to disprove the validity of his statement. ...

I haven't berated anyone. I've posted fact and sources to back up those facts. And I am far from an "internet expert." I use the products I sell and don't sell anything I don't trust and back.

And yes, 12 strand can have it's weave "opened up" but the material itself absorbs basically zero water. There is a difference between water clinging to the outside of material (such as with Dyneema) and being absorbed into material (such as with a bath towel). When water is absorbed into material and then freezes you have the potential for much more impact and issues than when water mostly freezes to the outside. When synthetic line is on a spool the weave is typically compressed, which wouldn't allow much water into the weave.

The OP, LittleRock80, hasn't posted more specifics about the incident which would help unravel (get it, "unravel"? Man I crack myself up...) what might have caused his line to break.

Oh, and the testing I posted went as far down as - (negative) 150 degrees C. That is C-0-L-D and far past the point of freezing. Dyneema SK75 got stronger as it got colder.

 

[TrekboxX]

I haven't berated anyone. I've posted fact and sources to back up those facts. And I am far from an "internet expert." I use the products I sell and don't sell anything I don't trust and back.

And yes, 12 strand can have it's weave "opened up" but the material itself absorbs basically zero water. There is a difference between water clinging to the outside of material (such as with Dyneema) and being absorbed into material (such as with a bath towel). When water is absorbed into material and then freezes you have the potential for much more impact and issues than when water mostly freezes to the outside. When synthetic line is on a spool the weave is typically compressed, which wouldn't allow much water into the weave.

The OP, LittleRock80, hasn't posted more specifics about the incident which would help unravel (get it, "unravel"? Man I crack myself up...) what might have caused his line to break.

Oh, and the testing I posted went as far down as - (negative) 150 degrees C. That is C-0-L-D and far past the point of freezing. Dyneema SK75 got stronger as it got colder.

I wouldn't disagree with any of what you said. I wasn't directing any comments towards you, at all. Seems your posts are helpful and informative, and you state the facts that you have. No offense meant to you, sir.

 

[Southeast Overland]

I wouldn't disagree with any of what you said. I wasn't directing any comments towards you, at all. Seems your posts are helpful and informative, and you state the facts that you have. No offense meant to you, sir.

10-4. No worries.

 

[mr jits]

Back to lessons learned: loctite those little Allen bolts after clocking the winch. A torque wrench is not enough and they can back out.

 

[Mark W]

Mrjits, you have left me a bit puzzled. From your comments you obviously understand that pressure turns ice to water... it is a well established fact that synthetic line is not affected by water (marine use the largest market for it for that matter)... it is well established that the lines we're discussing actually get stronger as it gets colder to well below temperatures any bus will ever see. But you still seem to be concerned that a wet or frozen line will have it's integrity compromised. like I said that puzzles me but it's no big deal.

I would point out that your comments about proving to you that frozen line will not break because it is frozen is a bit backwards. Generally speaking when you advance a hypothesis, the onus is on you to prove its validity. Additionally using scientific approach, it is impossible to absolutely prove a negative... so if you are not convinced by the facts at hand and want to speak of seeing a study then you need to find a study that shows you that ice in a winch line will cause it to break, not expect someone to provide a study that shows the opposite.


________________
Edit: oops... I confused some postings... The berating comment came from Mr 1407... That actually makes Lot more sense now... But I'll say the same thing to you... Except of course you must realize that you are the obnoxious poseur I refer to.

Your comment about people berating the original poster puzzles me as well... he made a statement seeming flaws in his premise were pointed out. Other theories advanced and there was back and forth inteaction. (At least until 1407 got involved.) That is how debate, discussion and discourse works. A person advances an argument and another person counters it if they have reason to do so. Disagreeing is not berating. Pointing out facts is not berating. Asking for fact is not berating. Pointing out lack of fact or pointing out inaccuracies in someone's argument is not berating.

And finally your comment about "Internet experts" puzzles me a bit too. At first glance it seems to be a backhanded slap at those of us who have been attempting to provide information and accuracy on the subject, insinuating that we are merely sitting at our keyboards and posturing and don't really have any knowledge or experience. Why would you make that assumption? While I agree there are far too many posers and wannabes here... One particularly obnoxious one involved in this discussion... there are in fact people on this forum who do know what they're talking about who do have real world experience and knowledge of the various subjects we discuss. If you do not think that is so why would you bother being here anyway? If you are questioning me or eventhough specifically, then I suggest it is very easy to verify our bona fides by simply looking through the discussions we have been involved with over the years we have been participating. Or better yet by speaking to any of the dozens of people here who know us personally, who we have helped in the forums or offline or who have been in the field with us not just interacting on the Internet.
______________________

Edit: and this last is to mrjits again.... no way in hell I would ever be on the trail with 1407driver...

In the end you'll be using your gear for your activities so use it in whatever way makes you comfortable. Since it is unlikely that life will ever put us on the trail together and even less likely to that trail time would involve retrieving a vehicle from water with a winch at the sub freezing temperatures... I doubt that our different approaches will ever conflict.


Mark...

 

[Mark W]

this is like the brett young vs. jim c thread

Naw, not really Ige. Mr. 1407driver seems to have decided that he needs to be my own personal stalker. this is the second thread recently that he has popped up in with some snide remark to bait me into arguing with him.

Once I saw from his following posts that he was not interested in discussing or even arguing anything factually, and saw the overall juvenile nature of his posturing and posting in reply to others comments as well, I realized it was time to walk away and let him lick his fingers clean.

I'm not sure what his problem is but I really have better things to do than mess with him.

I could make a lot more comments here but it's just too easy... and then I have to go wash my hands too.

So I guess you'll have to put your popcorn away... not going to put on a show today.


Mark...

 

[TrekboxX]

Mark W-

I'd like to apologize to you on this forum so others can see. I've allowed myself to engage and let my emotions get the best of me. I assure you I have not been stalking you, but admit that I've been put off by the tone of many of your posts. I am aware that this may be my problem alone, but I find myself deeply annoyed by those who appear to be know it alls, braggers, etc. I'm not impressed. Whether that person really knows what they are talking about, or not. I don't know you or your background, and I am sure you have winched more than I ever will (it sure sounds like it). But that doesn't mean you know everything there is to know. I never claimed a winch line would break when frozen (nor do I give a ****), that was another member. I was just pointing out the possibility, the fact that there's no way in **** that you have enough information to dismiss his claim, some of the physics that could affect such an outcome, and the fact that there are many variables that we don't know. This is solely as a response to the tone of your posts that I found annoying (understatement), and your willingness to dismiss the possibility that there may be something related to vehicle recovery that you do not know. Experience does not always equal knowledge. I've been involved with hundreds if not thousands of vehicle recoveries (almost exclusively steel cable) and have seen the same guys doing the same dangerous things for years because it's the way they've always done it. You can't tell them anything. That doesn't make them knowledgable or safe, but if you ask them there's nothing they can learn... I apologize if I incorrectly put you in this category, and am the only one who interprets your posts in this manner. Edit- Other posters doubted the OP's claim, but they didn't come off the same way.- I allowed myself to argue the technical matter (which none of us truly know, only hypothesize) instead of just ignoring you or sending you a pm and asking you to look up the word "humble".

No, we probably will never experience any trails together. You are surely much more hardcore than I, and besides- you need plenty of room to swing your enormous ***** around.

To the other members,

My true apologies to you. I really am a pretty nice, easy going guy. I did not mean to direct any untoward comments at you, nor did I mean to come off as a troll. I very much appreciate the knowledge that each member (even the newest and least experienced) bring to this forum and I have learned a lot.

 

[24HOURSOFNEVADA]

Warn, blah, blah, blah.

The same can be said about your anti Warn rants. Blah blah blah.

 

[KWalkerM]

Mark W-

No, we probably will never experience any trails together. You are surely much more hardcore than I, and besides- you need plenty of room to swing your enormous ***** around.

To the other members,

My true apologies to you. I really am a pretty nice, easy going guy. I did not mean to direct any untoward comments at you, nor did I mean to come off as a troll. I very much appreciate the knowledge that each member (even the newest and least experienced) bring to this forum and I have learned a lot.

lol you noticed his gigantic ego too? anyways...this thread was informative for the first half til it went sideways...

 

[Mark W]

So 1407... you think that declaring that it is humanly impossible to understand the mysterious goings on inside of a rope constituted contributing to a technical discussion. Really? I had tears rolling down my face I was laughing so hard when I read that post. If your intellect that limited so be it. I feel sorry for you. But for you to assume that no one else here... no on else in the world for that matter might possibly be not as mentally challenged... it does more to show what little you're bringing to the table than anything else.

Saying you're apologizing as you attack me further... that's pretty funny too.

Then there is your act of joining this and other threads with no other purpose than too bait me personally and start an argument so that you can pretend to be offended party and throw more insults in my direction... I guess there is a lot about you that is laughable.

Seriously, do you really think that you contributed anything technical this thread at all? I sure can't find it.


Why don't you go to chat and start an I hate Mark W thread. I'm sure there are 3 or 4 others beside you and sticker boy who would have a lot of fun stroking each other there. I promise I will drop in once in awhile when I have nothing better to do and stir the pot for you so you can get all upset anew. You can even sit there and argue about how big my "xxxxx" is. Although to be honest dude that's kinda creepy that you care.

In the meantime, if all you have to contribute here is further attempts to harass me... why don't you go away and let us get back to tech or at least stuff that pertains to Cruisers and trails.

 

[KWalkerM]

Mark, I dont hate you, personally i respect the knowledge you have about cruisers and wheeling but your Holier than thou attitude comes off as abrasive. you may very well be the most cruiser savvy owner on this site but you come off as a D*** sometimes. you appear to have the knowledge to back up your ego but that doesnt make being snide peachy keen; but what do i know, im just "sticker boy."
now im off to go coyote hunting and in the meantime lessons learned while winching:

always use wheel chocks on snow/ice when using a lighter truck as the anchor point.

 

[mr jits]

Man you guys fxxxed this thread up.
Mods, please delete.