Land Cruiser 250 versus Land Rover Defender (1 Viewer)

[TexasHusker]

My wife was ready to trade cars, and wanted a boxy SUV to cruise the streets. I'm a huge Toyota guy, so we went down the dealer to look at the 250. Not a bad rig at all. We drove a base model because this dealership never has any inventory. Then we were in DFW and went to look at a Defender. I immediately told her "you want the 6 cylinder", but the one that had her color and options choices was a 4 banger. I rolled my eyes and we went for a test drive. I never thought I would say this, but the Defender outclasses the 250 in almost every measurable way. Ride, fit, finish. The only advantage I could find with the 250 is that it's a hybrid which improves your MPG by about 4 miles per gallon. And a hard loaded 250 still falls short of a moderately loaded Defender in terms of options, and within a couple of $ thousand +/- of the price.

I am so impressed with the Defender that I am considering selling my 2022 LX 600 and getting one, and pocketing the extra $15K.

That being said, I feel sure a Toyota product will outlast a Land Rover product 3X, but I trade cars every few years, so I'm not as concerned about that.

Am I crazy?

 

[Zill]

You’re paying the Toyota tax because the cars last a long time and have a high resale value.

One cannot say the same about Land Rover products. Yeah, they’re great when they’re new, but give it time and you’ll see where they cut corners and did not invest in the long term durability of the components. The historically low resale value is a reflection of this with Land Rover products.

If you have the cash to blow on a Range Rover products every 3-5 years so you can avoid the reliability headache, then by all means, it may be a good option for you. Just expect to get hosed at the dealer when you’re trading it in.

 

[VWEeplusa]

I buy cars less than every 3 years and have to say, even being able to afford it, it still isn’t worth it with a Land Rover.

I had a new 2019 RR Sport HSE Dynamic loaded up for $95k and spent two years waiting for the other shoe to drop, watching the infotainment screen start and restart, waiting two days for an oil change so they could go thru all the codes thrown, and just generally expecting that everyday the Land Rover gremlins would take over.

Couldn’t stand it anymore and traded it at 58,000mi on a low miles 2013 200 Series. I am not a used car guy but the move to a 70,000mi 8 yr old 200 was a huge upgrade over the RR in every way but ‘styling.’

I think the Toyota hand wringing will prove to be overwrought over time. Land Rover will still be Land Rover. Sexy as hell out of the gate, but you will pay with heartache and en empty wallet if you don’t dump it before the 60,000mi mark when the value falls off the cliff and the gremlins show up.

Also, of note, even as a 2yr old +vehicle in immaculate condition, dealers aren’t excited about taking in used land rovers. Expect to do a private sell and wait a while to find a buyer.

 

[MRego]

Toyota saw and took note of the success the LR Defender made when it was launched. It emulated that when designing the 250 Prados LC and GX. Women love the design as they love the Defender's. Toyota did a good job, but IMO the Defender's design is still better. Now, the confession below is just for you to ponder, but if your wife is set on the Defender, you have probably lost that battle already .

***Confession alert now***.

I had a 2018 LC200, loved it for all the reasons we all know. Every time I saw a Defender on the road I was pulled by its design. IMO it is still the most beautiful SUV of the bunch we have today - as it is common with LR designs. They are just great on that. I finally caved in and traded my 200 (I know, I know ) in a pre-owned 2020 Defender P400 (the 6 cylinder) - at least I got a bit of the depreciation out and since the 200 almost does not depreciate the price gap was not terrible.

I drove the Defender for 2 years. The driving experience was great, power train impressive and, as you say, it felt like a well-built car (though still had rattles and cricks all over - it is definitely no 200). However, as with all LRs, I developed a close relationship with the service advisor of the dealership. Went there constantly to fix the gremlings and multiple recalls. All under warranty, so I just spent money for the multiple upgrades you can buy for the car (flaps, tow hooks, flares, etc). I got to admit, it never let me strand in the trails I took it, but, as someone said above, I was always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

FF to 2024, the warranty was expiring, and I go to the dealer and ask for a quote to extend it, because I am not crazy to own an LR without a warranty. The best I got was $8k for a 3-year extension and 100kmiles. Nope, thanks. There ended my relationship with the Defender. Traded in for my current LC200HE - which was always my dream ring, since the previous LC - I just did not have the courage to drop $90k for it. I could not be happier with my 200. Every time I drove the Defender and saw a 200 my heart ached a bit. As people say here, even if you trade in a 200, you will eventually realize you want it back.

Now the 250 is a whole nother story and I can see why one would be tempted to compare it with the Defender. I sat in a 250, drove one and it simply did not do for me. Whining engine, flimsy plastics, 4 banger, on and on - it is simply no 200. Today, the only thing that would make me trade in the 200 is a killer deal on a 23+ LX600 (because I refuse to pay $100k for a car). I am happy it is probably not happening, because deep down I feel that if I make the same mistake and trade the 200, I will be longing for one again - even if I get an LX600 or 700. I admit, I am just a LC name-plate fanboy and that nose of the LX helps nothing too.

Back to the Defender, if your wife likes it and you trade cars every 3 to 4 years under warranty, go for it. Just have another car as a spare (for the multiple times you will have to leave the LR in the shop) and be ready to closely know your service advisor and pile up a bunch of cash when you go trade in. Like they use to say in the Defender forum when people complained = "it is an LR, you just have to accept the many issues, gremnlins, etc, it is part of the experience, and you are driving a beautiful car". Good luck.

 

[Catching Neutral]

My wife and I recently went through this . She was interested in a Land Rover. A few of her friends told her to stay away. Thankfully she listened to them. And yes resale value is a real thing. Local Toyota offered us $57k for our 2019 200 series with 60K miles.
“You want to look good going somewhere drive a Land Rover. You want to look good coming back drive a Land Cruiser”
We have decided to keep the 200 and add a 250 to the bunch.

 

[ryanjl]

My vehicle prior to my 250 was a 2012 LR4. Had it for almost 9 years.

The Land Rover "unreliability" thing, in my opinion, is overblown. Used to be true, back when they were independent and then under BMW ownership. But around about 2005 when, under Ford ownership (of all things), they started redesigning models with the LR3, their reliability improved tremendously.

Mine was a very solid vehicle. In the 9 years I owned my LR4 (from 2015 to just this past June, and from 40k miles to 140k miles), I never had one single rattle in the interior. Sure, things would go bad every once in a while, but it was the sort of things that go bad on every car. The vast majority of parts on most modern cars are outsourced and made by a handful of manufacturers. The starter on the LR4 is Denso, the ignition coils were Bosch, the transmission was a ZF unit, etc.

People claim the air suspension will give you a lot of problems. Not in my experience. I changed the air struts at around 120k miles, which is the same as you'd have to do with the struts on a non air-sprung vehicle. Most problems I've heard with the air suspension fall into one of three categories. First, a problem on a brand new vehicle where a part was defective or wasn't installed right. I think I only ever heard of this once or twice. Two, a part on a "modified" vehicle where someone used the dumb lift rods to trick the suspension into being way out of spec. Or three, a vehicle where someone used super cheap parts to replace parts that had previously gone bad.

All reports I have read of the new Defender makes them seem pretty reliable. No known engine problems. Everything else is fairly standard, too.

I seriously considered a Defender when I bought my 250, but decided to go back to Toyota just to change things up again. I sometimes wonder if I made the correct choice. The MPG I thought I'd get with the 250 hasn't ever been there. Yeah, I modified mine with heavy AT tires, but I did that with my Land Rover, too, and didn't take quite the hit that I took with the 250.

But that said, if you want to modify the Defender, there are much fewer options, and they are all pretty pricey. And, you've got to trim the wheel well liners to fit 33" tires -- 35" tires take a lot of work. On a 250, they fit standard.

 

[Corbet]

You're asking a Toyota forum if you're crazy to buy a Rover, I believe the overwhelming response will be obvious.

 

[hoot504]

My wife isn't allowed to buy cars that dumb. She probably knows better than to ask.

Currently she has a lexus.

 

[TexasHusker]

We test drove both the 250 and the Defender, one day each. Sad to say, but there was no comparison. The 250 had very mediocre gas mileage, a lot of wind noise at highway speed, a fluttering hood, and doors that just didn't seem solid. The Defender inline 4 had good punch with decent mileage, zero wind noise, an incredible ride, and the body integrity was night and day. Thick doors that close with a thud that reminded me of the 70s Mercedes Sedans. The Defender was $4K more than the 250.

Will the Toyota outlast the Defender? If history is any indication, probably. But since I trade cars every 2-3 years anyway, this really wasn't a contest. And clearly, Rover has upped their game.

 

[Corbet]

I trade cars every 2-3 years

Just lease what ever floats your boat. You're the auto industry's dream customer.

None of your criticisms are out of line of the 250, and you've pulled the long game from the equation.

 

[TexasHusker]

Just lease what ever floats your boat. You're the auto industry's dream customer.

None of your criticisms are out of line of the 250, and you've pulled the long game from the equation.

Thanks for the advice. I don't lease cars. People buy cars for different reasons. I put a slate roof on my house 25 years ago at 4X the cost of a comp roof. Since then, all of my neighbors have replaced their comp roofs 3X, a few of them 4X. I've never lost a shingle. So in that instance, I played the long game.

The 250 seems cheap to me. If the internals of the thing are as cheap as the externals, I am going to be really disappointed in Toyota. It appears they tossed a cheap, squared-off imitator of the Defender out to market and slapped a Land Cruiser badge on it. It's a Land Cruiser in name only.

To me, cars are for transportation and enjoyment. I'm ready for something new in 2-3 years. No harm, no foul. Although I have a green 2010 LC that I will probably never sell. It's my knock-around, although I am getting ready to do a bare-to-the metal repaint with new OEM headlights.

 

[Phillyd2]

Given how most of them are used then it's an either / or decision, which depends on which image one wants to project.

 

[TexasHusker]

Given how most of them are used then it's an either / or decision, which depends on which image one wants to project.

Image to project?

 

[Corbet]

Thanks for the advice. I don't lease cars.

Well, yah the lease terms have to be good. Generally Toyota leases are good. I can't speak for the Rover, never sold those new.

 

[stridertexas]

I had 3 Cruisers before I sold a 2014 200 for a 2020 Defender. It was an amazing vehicle and drives 100x better than a Toyota. Phenomenal vehicles off road too.

And I was ready to keep it for the long haul. But it had an untraceable coolant leak, both headlights went out, speakers popped, the rear doors locked shut requiring a software reinstall to open them back up. All told I estimate I had about $16,000 worth of warranty repairs. My SA got me in and out easily and quickly with a loaner but eventually the time to keep going back 2-3x a year and the potential out of warranty service costs made me take my beating and sell it out of warranty.

It truly was an amazing vehicle. If you only plan on keeping it for 2-3 years then I say do it. But once that warranty expires, it’s a whole different experience of ownership to be prepared for. Just make sure you understand what you’re opting for at that point. I’d guess once out of warranty if you can budget for $2-3k a year in repairs at a good local Indy shop then it can be worthwhile. Dealership costs outside of warranty will knock you out.

I didn’t have the balls to do it based on my in warranty ownership period.

 

[javelinadave]

I have owned both Rovers and Landcruisers for decades. From 2013 on Rovers are good to go. If you want a 3rd vehicle to consider look at a Grenadier. Old time Defender looks with a BMW drive terrain.

 

[TexasHusker]

I have owned both Rovers and Landcruisers for decades. From 2013 on Rovers are good to go. If you want a 3rd vehicle to consider look at a Grenadier. Old time Defender looks with a BMW drive terrain.

How do you feel that the 2013+ Rovers are holding up in terms of durability? The Grenadier is certainly a looker.

 

[javelinadave]

How do you feel that the 2013+ Rovers are holding up in terms of durability? The Grenadier is certainly a looker.

Last year I traded in a 2013 RR Sport for a 2021 lease turn back full sized RR. All it needed in those years was rear brakes and annual oil changes. Same for my previous Sport.
They are not Toyota reliable but they do have a reputation as go anywhere vehicles. As always YMMV

 

[hoot504]

And I was ready to keep it for the long haul. But it had an untraceable coolant leak, both headlights went out, speakers popped, the rear doors locked shut requiring a software reinstall to open them back up. All told I estimate I had about $16,000 worth of warranty repairs. My SA got me in and out easily and quickly with a loaner but eventually the time to keep going back 2-3x a year and the potential out of warranty service costs made me take my beating and sell it out of warranty.

So basically a piece of s***. Got it

 

[Jetboy]

My biggest question about the LR is why compare it to the LC? LR is purely for the highway. The appropriate Toyota comparator for that is a Highlander/Grand Highlander or rx350/TX. Why not choose the vehicle that's optimized for the way you're actually going to use it?