Just food for thought ...

[KOWBOY]

In no form or fashion do I wish to sidetrack the campaignin' efforts of the fine volunteers on the "election thread" ... so I figured I'd start me another thread.

The followin' opinions are my own ... and no ... I don't really care if you agree with them or not ... I'm bad like that. But perhaps if I can fuel some honest discussions to some drastic alternatives to the current status quo ... and a few more politic'ly correct Folks turn my harsh ideas into a useable solution ... then perhaps we'll all be better off ... or maybe not, and just delete this friggin' thread.

Durin' my brief tenure as an officer, it became clear that TLCA has 3 "untouchable" Holy Grails:

1) Toyota Trails magazine
2) The Rubithon
3) The Administrator

So let's shake it up By Gawd:

Toyota Trails is a wonderful masthead for the club but has grown into a monster the club can not afford to feed. The magazine should be a black and white production that has two purposes to serve this club ... advertise upcomin' events and then provide coverage for those events. Nothin' more. Any author that submits an event-coverage article that gets published is awarded free admission to TLCA-sanctioned events for a one-year period. Advertisers that realize the Folks goin' to the events are the ones buyin' their stuff will stick around. Don't need the rest of 'em nohow.

Rubithon's a great event ... and is the result of some fantastic effort from some wonderful Folks over many years. But nothin' should be beyond review of the BOD. This event needs to submit a budget, report into the BOD, and adhere to the requirements of any other event. As the major event fundraiser for this club, the majority of the profits should be used as seed money for the events put on by the individual chapters. Leverage the money with one of the faithful TLCA corporate sponsers for a group buy on a dozen or so winches ... to provide a TLCA grand prize for the raffle at all the sanctioned events.

We're paying a full-time salary to an administrator that already has a full-time job. With all due respect to the current employee ... that's ridiculous from a bid'ness viewpoint. The salary should buy us a 9 to 5, Monday to Friday employee.

And my grand finale ...

We got us 2 types of members:

1) Active members that attend events
2) Members we don't need.

Carry on ... and have a nice day

 

[66fj40x2]

That's very frustrating. Being the Chairperson for Flat Nasty the first two years our only support was a magazine ad and insurance I'm not sure we needed being the event was at an private ORP.

Unlike Kowboy I have not renewed this year. I don't get enuff from Trails or TLCA in general to justify the money for just a magazine. I pay money to Crawl & Overland Journal for magazines. I pay money to BRC for land use issues and to help keep public land public. Conversly I pay money to TLCA for a magazine I don't read except for the occasional article of interest (and those are few lately) and an event that I'm sure is great but that I may never get it too because it's too far away..... I don't see the dollars to benefit balancing out here.

I am watching the TLCA election and will see the direction TLCA goes with new leadership at the helm, however to get my money I need to see, or at least feel, that TLCA represents my ideals and opinions. "I own a Toyota and I WHEEL!"...... What have you got for me?

Mike Costello, TLCA 10749 (recently expired)

 

[Clutchee]

WHY does the Rubithon get their own set of rules?

 

[euclid]

I'd like to follow Kowboy's lead and say some stuff that's been on my mind too.

Rubithon:
When CottonLand stared the Southern Cruiser Crawl we didn't get money to fund the advance expenses for the ride, members put it up out of pocket. The next year we had enough reserves to pay it out of club funds.

When we became a TLCA club the CLC started paying the TLCA 10% of our earnings, on top of our cost for insurance. I don't see what that money goes for, other than the privilege of calling the CLC organized ride (with zero TLCA support) a "TLCA event" (and to pay the Rubithon bills). Not much return on investment.

Looks to me like the TLCA is a national club now, not a California club. What percentage of TLCA members can consistently attend the "Hosted Event" of Rubithon? It's out of whack and the bylaws and SOP's need a thorough edit if the TLCA is going to have a lasting national presence.


On trails:
I'd like to see the magazine stay the same if it can do so within it's own budget. I consider the magazine the only real benifit I get from being a TLCA member. How bout sending ALL of my membership dues to TT? That being said; I, as a member of the TLCA, haven't contributed enough to TT to earn the right to bitch about it. It's a member driven publication produced by less than 1% of the membership. One solution idea: require every TLCA chapter to submit at least 2 chapter reports a year to TT as part of Chapter in Good Standing.

One more idea:
If TLCA wants more chapters/members, some sort of support or incubator for upstart clubs would go a long way. Even a small loan of club upstart cash would help. TLCA BOD oversight and accounting would be helpful too. Give this authority/responsibility to the membership reps.

Thanks to the outgoing BOD and everyone else that has put their energy and time into the TLCA. It is much appreciated, and I hope that the fact that I'd like to see some changes won't discount my appreciation for yall's hard work.

 

[TUFFTORQ]

I'm recently expired also and have not renewed my membership for the same reasons you mention. Representing new ideas and opinions are important to the various chapters and individual members.

Mark W.

That's very frustrating. Being the Chairperson for Flat Nasty the first two years our only support was a magazine ad and insurance I'm not sure we needed being the event was at an private ORP.

Unlike Kowboy I have not renewed this year. I don't get enuff from Trails or TLCA in general to justify the money for just a magazine. I pay money to Crawl & Overland Journal for magazines. I pay money to BRC for land use issues and to help keep public land public. Conversly I pay money to TLCA for a magazine I don't read except for the occasional article of interest (and those are few lately) and an event that I'm sure is great but that I may never get it too because it's too far away..... I don't see the dollars to benefit balancing out here.

I am watching the TLCA election and will see the direction TLCA goes with new leadership at the helm, however to get my money I need to see, or at least feel, that TLCA represents my ideals and opinions. "I own a Toyota and I WHEEL!"...... What have you got for me?

Mike Costello, TLCA 10749 (recently expired)

 

[LDowney]

This discussion is raising some very interesting points which should not be lost in this thread. Could these points be summarized into a concise set of concerns/questions for submission to the TLCA leadership for review and action? Is there a procedure to bring these concerns/questions to the leadership as documented 'business'?

 

[wardfoto]

Kowboy- when you stir the pot, you really bust out the big power tools to do it, don't you?
There's a ton of questions here that I don't have answers to, but I will say I'll certainly do my best to try and answer them for you if they haven't been answered by the election, and I get the nod. If I don't get the nod, I probably won't be in a position to get those answers.
One of the things I mentioned when Jeff and I were questioned about what we see as issues, was the need to make T.L.C.A. events that are more accessable to more members, like hosting an event in the central and eastern parts of the country.
I think that we are missing some marketing opportunities, and that's something I'd like to resolve as well, which I'd like to think will then get us into a better position to make these other events happen.
One of the things I see that the events need to be is more friendly to all attendees, not just the wheelers. The success of our L.S.C.R., and of Kowboy's own W.T.F.R. leads me to believe that it is possible, or more accurately, necessary to have a little something for everyone.
I don't wish to turn this into something where I'm polticin', so I'll just leave it at this. I think it's only fair for you guys to know that I want to know what is on your minds, because nothing can be changed if we don't know what you guys are thinking.
I've been watching alot of these kinds of discussions, and I've got my ideas. we'll see what happens, but wanted you to know I'm doing my best to pay attention to all concerned.
If you have questions for me, feel free to ask, either here, or via pm. If I can help, I will.

 

[trainrech]

I don't necessarily think clubs need "starter funds" to get organized. We started TAC with no seed money and a whopping $10 in dues. We waited 6 years before holding an event and used funds sparingly during that time. We now have a decent bank account and are able to use the money for worthy causes as we see fit.

I'm still a card carrying member, but I've resigned myself to the understanding that I'm paying for the subscription to TT.

WRT concerns about the direction the TLCA is going (or not going), I seem to recall the change in the guard that occurred, what, 4 or 5 years ago? Seems like the prime time for the right group of individuals to step up and work on shaping the future TLCA as they see fit.

 

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

I think the key to participashun (How's Kowboy spell it?) is the chapters. I wanted to join a chapter a few years ago, so I signed up with PMC. However, aside from events where other PMC members attend as well, I've made 1 "PMC event". I'm about 5 hours from PMC's center.

Early this summer some local TLCA members and myself decided to start up a chapter "Jefferson State Cruisers". Since May we've had 2 birf partys, one BBQ, one meeting, one club run, and later this month we'll have our second meeting and first overnight camp.

My point is that participation is directly related to proximity for me. I can't drive 5 hours to go to a meeting, but I can drive one hour. I think we need to check the chapter spread, and encourage people to fill in the gaps. Our club is not even a sworn in chapter yet, and we're off the ground and running with over 10 paid members...

$0.02

 

[TRT2]

Hey my friends... I would offer that Rubithon discussions should involve me... after all, I am responsible for all aspects of the event. I also have no problem with folks questioning what I am doing as Chairman.

This is long. Be forewarned. But is should serve as a good basis for further discussions about Rubithon.

If there has been a lack of communication about Rubithon with the board, the blame stands squarely with me. In the past, Nick has asked for updates and I always provide them. Unfortunately, yes, I need a nudge once in a while. I did submit an update early this year but only that one.

and yes, Rubithon should submit a budget and this year, I did not. But I also did not submit one for PMC swap meet and McGrew Trail Ride. I promised Timm I would submit the actuals as my budget, and did. I am not going to post those numbers here, but can assure everyone that Timm, Casey and Jenn have all the statistics, and the 88 TLCA renewals the event took in. This was a great year for Rubithon and one where we actually made some good money. Yes, I do keep a Rubithon working fund in which I deposit checks/cash, and pay all the bills. All Credit Card payments, and renewal $$ go directly to TLCA coffers. In other words, even in year where I lose money, TLCA still sees profit and I pay the bills locally. Additionally, I received no seed money (ever) for any of the events I am involved with. Nor would I give you any! Now if TLCA wants to provide Seed money (and it did eons ago), so be it.

When I took over as Chairman, Rubithon had never been ruled or governed by the TLCA Board. But in reality, think about what a bottle neck that would be. Having to route all questions and decisions before the Board, and all the drama that can be associated with the board. The SOPs specifically note the President will assign the Rubithon chairman. In doing so, he is empowering that Chairman to make Rubithon work for everyone as an event. Additionally, being a hosted event, Rubithon sends all proceeds to TLCA, not a measely 10% which does not even cover the advertisement in Trails. My events would be dead without Toyota Trails advertising. For me, it is by far the best value.

We would not tell CM or BHCC how to run their event, why we would tell Rubithon? Simply because it is a Hosted event? On the flip side, I have never asked TLCA Board for help. And if everyone who attends returns noting what a fantastic Safe time they had, why would you question the event leadership?

I have a basic philosophy, and displayed this routinely while president, that TLCA should stay out of the business of Chapters, and their events. While Rubithon is our Hosted event, lets be realistic, it is put on by CA TLCA members and CA TLCA Chapters. Period. Without the fantastic TLCA volunteers who keep coming back for more, this event would flounder no matter how much the Board was involvled in making decisions or wanted it to be successful.

I could go on for hours about the fantastic changes over the last 5 years that have positioned Rubithon to continue to be successful. We have secured the entire Rubicon springs for our event, we have consistently invested into our equipment so we have fresh and complete first responder first aid kits, we have upgraded our raunchy camp equipment, we have secured our own generator to avoid renting, we have sweet packing boxes that nest when empty, we have good stoves, and we are securing a new storage shed to store the amazing amount of gear we have to host this event.

and Rubithon has served as the Face for TLCA land use issues in CA by supporting and donating to Friends of the Rubicon and Del Albright. You want an opinion about Rubithon or me personally, Ask Del what he thinks.

The thing that amazes me most... is the TLCA members who either volunteer every year, or register and attend every year. They are not concerned about what other think, nor that TLCA gets all the profits. They keep coming to have fun, and to ensure other TLCA members... first timers or hardened veterans... have fun and enjoy our beautiful Sierra Nevada in their most awesome Toyota vehicle.

Looking forward, I would offer that if anyone wants to know what is up with Rubithon and are not seeing enough correspondence, don't wait till months after the event, speak up and make your desire known. It ought to be obvious from this note that I have no problem writing! I would also offer that Rubithon is at a pivotal point in time. Want to know the future? Study history. While I thank Kowboy for his consideration, I would ask him and the TLCA Board to allow Rubithon to continue to be successful by allowing us to continue hosting this premier event, without your intervention and without deciding what is best of us from afar. Instead, jump in that truck and come join us, see Rubithon first hand and in person, then decide how you can best aid us in being successful.

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to voice my opinions on a subject very near and dear to me. I am also available to any TLCA member to answer questions, talk or provide updates. If you want financial data, please add it as an agenda item for the next board meeting and Timm, Casey and I will be happy to go over our success. But I would suggest avoiding messing with something that works. And from what I see in TLCA, not many things work as well as Rubithon.

Oh, I am placing one more shirt order, if anyone wants a shirt or hoodie, speak up now!

Later my friends, lets keep the drama to a minimum and focus on important stuff like elections!

Tony Twiddy
Rubithon chairman
McGrew Co Chair
TLCA member and dang proud of it!
BRC life member
FOTR RLTC 1st graduate (and proud of that too)

 

[hatfieldcb]

I don't get enuff from Trails or TLCA in general to justify the money for just a magazine. I pay money to Crawl & Overland Journal for magazines. I pay money to BRC for land use issues and to help keep public land public. Conversly I pay money to TLCA for a magazine I don't read except for the occasional article of interest (and those are few lately) and an event that I'm sure is great but that I may never get it too because it's too far away..... I don't see the dollars to benefit balancing out here.

.... to get my money I need to see, or at least feel, that TLCA represents my ideals and opinions. "I own a Toyota and I WHEEL!"...... What have you got for me?

Mike Costello, TLCA 10749 (recently expired)

Mike, what you are saying doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Toyota Trails has plenty of stories that are right along the lines of the kind of thing you would see in those other magazines. And there is a land use column as well. You could save yourself some money and get everything in one package, Toyota Trails, if you pay your TLCA dues.

And as a TLCA member you have access to ALL events. Not just one!

What specific things is TLCA not providing you? Just curious. Is that a question you can answer?

 

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

I gotta back Tony on the Rubithon front. I worked on the raffle committee this year, and it was a lot of work, probably 40 man hours before the event, and a good 6 or 8 at the event.... But what blew me away was the committee meeting, where 50-60 people showed up... All of whom had done their part to pull it all together.

The task is herculean, and I think too much input from above could be detrimental to the event. You have to jump into Rubithon feet first, and it's deep!

 

[REKCUT]

I have a couple of question that someone with direct involvement might be able to answer.

Rubithon's a great event ... and is the result of some fantastic effort from some wonderful Folks over many years. But nothin' should be beyond review of the BOD.

Does the BOD review all the official TLCA events?

This event needs to submit a budget, report into the BOD, and adhere to the requirements of any other event.

Do are all TLCA events required to submit budgets and do they?

As the major event fundraiser for this club, the majority of the profits should be used as seed money for the events put on by the individual chapters

Are other events financially profitable and do any of them turn over the majority of there profits to TLCA?

Additionally, I received no seed money (ever) for any of the events I am involved with. Nor would I give you any! Now if TLCA wants to provide Seed money (and it did eons ago), so be it.

Has TLCA ever given (seed money) to an event? Does it currently give money or pick up the bills for any event?

Does TLCA have a open book policy and publish its budget and P&L for each year?

 

[66fj40x2]

Toyota Trails has plenty of stories that are right along the lines of the kind of thing you would see in those other magazines.

Typically there is an "Overlanding" story, true. There are no camping trailer write-ups, equipment reviews, etc. I've not seen a hardcore rig covered since Nolen's "Outside The Box". When TT did hold my interest my truck was stock and 4" springs and 33's where 'big'.... I guess maybe I've just outgrown, as my rig has grown to 38's and I'm shopping for parts to link it.

And there is a land use column as well.

That is an article I typically read. Some time ago there was discussion about taking a larger roll in land-use.... spurred by Roger, IIRC. What ever happened with that? Has anything been done?

And as a TLCA member you have access to ALL events. Not just one!

As a non-TLCA I still have access to many event.... "Open Events" I believe they are called. Since all the events I've traveled to are at off-road parks, and some I hope to make it to, CM & BHCC, are on public land, I can still go and wheel and hang out with other Cruiserheads. I may not be able to buy raffle tickets..... but I usually don't win much anyway.

What specific things is TLCA not providing you? Just curious. Is that a question you can answer?

I fully understand that Trails is a member written publication.... that's always the standard reply when anyone has a negative word about it. I also understand that by not renewing I have no say in how things are done and no vote in any TLCA business..... but honestly, as a member, I had no say either.
What I don't get from TLCA? Since all I really get is TT, I think we've covered that. Local clubs are REQUIRED by TLCA to require club members to be TLCA members, why. This only hurts the local chapter's membership efforts. Chapters are REQUIRED to support TLCA, what benefit do the chapters receive from TLCA? What does TLCA do for them? I'll join local clubs, I belong to three currently and at one was a member in five (two by attending events). I know I can show up and wheel these clubs and these people and have a great time, member or not.
I suppose when TLCA started, TT (the newsletter), was a great asset for networking, tech, event info etc. Forty plus years ago there was no Google, MUD, Pirate or the like. A simple Google search now will provide you more information on a topic then you can read in a sitting.
What percentage of TLCA's budget goes to land use? What has TLCA done to support and help keep GSMTR going with the fight going on over Tellico?
TLCA has been so focused on getting arm-chair wheelers into the ranks and has, in some (if not large) part, turned it's back to the wheelers that do participate to support the local clubs that host events.
I honestly see better things to spent my money on right now. If there is a change in direction I will be more then happy to write that check. I will be more then happy to support TLCA. I would be more then happy to submit an article for TT..... although Todd would have to spend much time editing it to make print-worthy (as you can see by my posts) .
I am not encouraging anyone or any club to drop out of TLCA. If folks get something out of it that's GREAT! I'm just saying that I don't.... I'm headed a different direction then the organization is I guess.
I really don't want this to sound like I'm bashing TLCA... It's not intent! It's a good organization run by great people, for the most part.

 

[KOWBOY]

Kowboy- when you stir the pot, you really bust out the big power tools to do it, don't you?

"I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell" --- Harry S. Truman

 

[trainrech]

From a chapter perspective, the only benefit we have seen is the availability of insurance for our event (I also question the need given we are hosting it on within a private park, but that's not for discussion here).

I'd be curious as to the number of TLCA chapters who fully enforce the "must be a member of TLCA" clause on their membership?

Also, we changed the status of our event (Get Flat Nasty w/ TAC) from sanctioned to open to allow non-TLCA members to participate this year to try to encourage more participation.

 

[timmbuck2]

I have a couple of question that someone with direct involvement might be able to answer.


Does the BOD review all the official TLCA events?
Do are all TLCA events required to submit budgets and do they?

As EVP I can answer these questions. All events are required to submit a budget to me before they get their Insurance Certificate. Not all of them have done it, but most do after I remind them a few times. This information is distributed to the BOD.

Timm

 

[nuclearlemon]

land use was discussed on the last call and it sounds like someone is interested in getting tlca more involved with that side of our sport. whether it be through donations/grants or helping people in contacting the correct representatives regarding land issues, land use is very important to many of us. i personally would love to see more involvement here.

as for the hardcore, i hate to rehash it, but the magazine is what members make it. i'm sorry we can't please you. i personally still think that toyota trails is well worth it. maybe you could do a writeup on what you want to see and that might inspire someone else to write something.

it is impossible to please everyone in the age of e-information. while the west is worried about land use, that doesn't matter to easterners because they don't have public land to wheel on. same thing with the insurance...it helps out the club events on public land (if you check on event insurance, you'll find it's EXTREMELY expensive, so tlca's insurance is a wonderful thing); i don't know how the insurance works on private land (i know rising sun's rally is on private land, but we/our event is not covered by their insurance), so i can't comment on that.

you want to see more hardcore rig builds, i'd like to see more mild, but out of the ordinary builds (ex: i hate buggies, but i like to see rigs that are built for my colorado type trails with linked suspensions and newer more efficient engine swaps on rigs with 33-36" tires). when i first joined tlca some 18 or 19 years ago, i was living in the midwest...there was no way i could make an event because there wasn't a chapter or event east of the mississippi, but it was a great resource for parts. now, i can find that on the web. i can find builds of all sorts on the web. i can find trail reports for just about anywhere on the web. but i like my old school paper media better, so i'll stick with tlca and toyota trails.

ok, i've been at work since three and i'm juiced up on monster, so i just totally lost my train of thought, so i'll shut up now

 

[Aggie]

I'd be curious as to the number of TLCA chapters who fully enforce the "must be a member of TLCA" clause on their membership?

We do. We follow it strictly, I should know I am in charge of Membership for our club.

I am not going to comment on the benefit we see from being a TLCA chapter but rather

 

[tornadoalleycruiser]

Well.. As much as I like Kowboy as a person.. I really hate it when he hops on his "Wholly platform" and becomes a preacher/politician. I know I’m going to get banned from a few circles with this post but so is life.

"The magazine should be a black and white production”

The magazine goes out to approx 4000 members plus or minus a few.. Of those members probably 1000 (guessing high here) actually attend events? Do those members want a paper copy of some guy telling bout going on a trip? and an ad for a trail ride 5 states away? Probably not. cause their truck is sitting on 30" tires and it's painted nice. They want to know about Marv's sale going on to buy something for their ride..

so.. A "vendor" from a "bidness" perspective would like to see their ad in a paper flyer printed on a Xerox machine? Good luck selling those ads. Don't think we'll get a whole lot of advertisers that way. I can go dig out my old paper copies of the trails from back in the day and review.. But I don't mind seeing color, full page ads from Toyota and other major advertisers. That’s me.. I like the pretty pictures but I’m a simple lad.

Rubithon? Seriously, again?. Put on another event.. Nothing says there can't be 2 TLCA events... Competition is good.. Good for the event, good for the TLCA, good for wheeling.
The Rubithon works, provides TLCA members a chance to wheel, win cool stuff, have a good time.

Admin position.. the salary for that position does not take out taxes, does not offer benefits, doesn’t offer any time off.. You might be able to find a stay at home with the kid’s type that would be able to afford to do that full time. You want an office desk job? Offer an office desk job compensation and facility/storefront. Ever since the conception of the Admin position people that are "perceiving" that they are not getting a TLCA bang for their buck are complaining. Most perceive it apparently is a very simple, answer the phone type of job.. It isn't all that.. Database management, Tons of mail, people upset because they moved 6 months ago, didn't let the TLCA know and now are upset because they didn't receive a trails because their postmaster apparently likes Toyotas as well and wanted to read the publication with pictures. A phone that rings at all hours cause it’s forwarded to your house or cell phone.

We’ve had a few admins since conception. (I know, I helped the original idea come to reality)
It’s a paid employee of the TLCA Executive BOD, if the management of the employee has an issue then management needs to deal with it.. The Admin is not the employee of EVERY single TLCA member. If you or anyone else wants that job, by all means apply for it when it is vacant or open for applications.

Lastly. We have 3 types of members..
You forgot the ones that join mainly for a magazine.

If you want a Xerox flyer then by all means, go print one up and send it to everyone that will pay you to receive it.

I’m not upset with Kowboy or others because of a political revolt, Bring it.. How did this country come about? Kowboy actually cares or he wouldn’t be posting stuff like this.. Do I agree with him? Probably not cause my views are jaded having been on the BOD for so many years.

Now .. Some might point out .. Hey Erik.. You don’t participate, didn’t attend an event this year, who are you to judge, post, say anything.. You are correct I bailed after 10 something years on the BOD.. Because I was tired of this exact thing constantly going on. I got tired of going to events and having to talk TLCA politics. I’m still a proud member of the TLCA.. I still have MANY MANY friends on the BOD and in the TLCA and out of the TLCA. If you know me personally you know I’m a pretty laid back guy, I love wheeling and hanging out fixing broken junk on the side of the trail.

I’m going to lose some friends because of this post I’m sure.. Seriously. There needs to be some changes.. But let’s look at what’s good for the Car club.. It is honestly 2 things.. A car club and a magazine.. Fix what needs fixing, leave what works in place..

If you want to fix something, here’s my $.02.. for events.. If a chapter wants to buy an ad in the trails.. Buy an ad. .
If they want insurance, buy insurance from TLCA.. or whomever. Just cover your club and members, it’s a very litigious society out there.. Somebody will sue no matter what waivers are in place..

Don’t push the chapters to pay 10% or whatever back to the TLCA. For what purpose is that? Let the chapter use that money to buy more raffle stuff for the next year.
Just change the process .

Heck, if need be.. Offer 3 types of memberships..

One that gets a simple list of events..
One that gets a magazine
One that gets both, well. the list will be in the magazine so it'll be covered.

I'm hopping off my soapbox now, My clubs wheeling this week, I'm not thus I'm apparently moody. You all go back to bashin a car club. I need to order a clutch for the tow rig..
Erik Christiansen..