Builds Isuzu 4HE1TC into FJ62

[Nexxussian]

The only concern I have about mounting the starter with the solenoid "down" is there might be a chance for it to draw moisture and "freeze".

Of course actual freezing is only a concern in a cold climate, but it could cause a buildup of schmutz (highly technical term for generic C**p) that would have the same effect. Not to mention corrosion.

I would hope a small drain hole added to the solenoid attach part of the starter housing would cure that, but no one will know untill someone tries it.

 

[astr]

The only concern I have about mounting the starter with the solenoid "down" is there might be a chance for it to draw moisture and "freeze".

Of course actual freezing is only a concern in a cold climate, but it could cause a buildup of schmutz (highly technical term for generic C**p) that would have the same effect. Not to mention corrosion.

I would hope a small drain hole added to the solenoid attach part of the starter housing would cure that, but no one will know untill someone tries it.

Good point!

The center line of the solenoid is lower than the center line of the starter motor in th the stock location. The solenoid does have a good sized drain hole at its lowest point so a new drain hole would need to be added if the starter is rotated at all.

Thanks for ponting that out

 

[vsa911]

That is a ridiculously good point. I'm surprised that didn't occur to me. Believe it or not, I actually saw that happen for the first time just a few weeks ago. We had a cold snap near Buffalo (well below 0 F for a weekend) right after some warmer weather and a starter on one of our Petes froze. We primarily use either a Nippondenso gear-reduced starter or a Delco 42MT. The Nippondenso doesn't have a drain hole at the solenoid at all, but the Delco does. The Delco is the one that froze. The driver mentioned that it had been raining during his entire trip home until he parked at his house on a Friday. There was a thin film of ice on everything underneath the hood and cab, so we warmed the starter with a MAPP gas torch in his driveway and it fired.

I'm really not sure what the lesson is. If there is a drain hole it really should be at the bottom, but maybe it would be better off with none at all. Of course, there is probably less of a need for a drain on a solenoid that spends all of it's life next to a very large, warm engine that is running all of the time and should never see the type of moisture that an offroad vehicle will see (I should emphasize 'should', as some super-truckers seem to think they could drive through a river). I am shocked I hadn't seen this before, and somewhat surprised that two manufacturers handle this quite differently. Being that these starters are mounted away from the warmth of the engine (not to mention Isuzu's own stock configuration was not meant for trails that weren't paved) it might be wise to take note of all of this.

Does anyone know of some sort of aftermarket products (rubber boots and the like) intended to keep moisture away from starters?

 

[Dougal]

Regarding wading, the owners manual I have here for a 1985 Isuzu NPR states maximum wading depth as 1 metre. It warns to close the foot vents befor entering the water.

This is the record for the deepest wading I've ever seen in a factory publication.

 

[vsa911]

On the 24v starter front (sorry to change gears so much): I found the part number for the 24v starter that I was talking about a few months ago. It says it's a gear-reduced model, but with so little offset I assume it's planetary. The original number was from Mitsubishi, M8T85371. I did a quick search and there is an Australian website that has a HUGE cross reference list with a lot of Hitachi numbers. The Hitachi starters are usually easier to get your hands on. The webpage is:

PJL Diesel Electric :: Heavy Duty Diesel Auto Electrical Specialists

 

[astr]

On the 24v starter front (sorry to change gears so much): I found the part number for the 24v starter that I was talking about a few months ago. It says it's a gear-reduced model, but with so little offset I assume it's planetary. The original number was from Mitsubishi, M8T85371. I did a quick search and there is an Australian website that has a HUGE cross reference list with a lot of Hitachi numbers. The Hitachi starters are usually easier to get your hands on. The webpage is:

PJL Diesel Electric :: Heavy Duty Diesel Auto Electrical Specialists

Good find! That starter looks like it will bolt right in without any adapters and would definitely not intrude as much, if any, into the sheetmetal. I'm out of town till next week but when I get back, I'll check with a company that I've had good luck with before to see if they can cross reference that starter to a 12 volt unit.

If this starter will work, I'd be willing to go the series/parallel route. I was planning on two batteries any way!

EDIT: I did find some other photos of the starter. These show an offset gear reduction, as has the OE starter, but the direction of the offset may be more suitable. Photo below.

 

[vsa911]

The other concern could be the solenoid getting a little close to the bell housing. It seems like it will clear fine from the pictures, but this is the first time I've seen one from the angle shown above. I couldn't tell from the other ones that I've seen that this was a direct gear offset instead of a planetary, so I think I may just bite the bullet and buy the first one that I can get my hands on to see just how well it actually fits.

Out of curiosity, where did you find that photo? After I dug out the part number I spent a little time trying to find as many pictures as I could, but the site I posted had the best I could find. These buggers are a bit hard to come by.

Another thing to think about along the 12/24 switch setup, since this starter is 4kw at 24 volt (I think the stock 12 volt is 3kw or 3.5kw) it should be pulling 2kw at 12 volt. It might feel a little weak when compared to the stock 12 volt starter, but if you're in warm weather all the time I'm sure that would work just fine. I would never trust it up in the northeast, but in the end some of this work to be done needs to be justified by the needs of the individual.

Also, (on yet another tangent) doesn't it seem like it shouldn't be all that much work to just build the starter 12 volt once you have the smaller offset unit in hand? The photo astr posted makes it look like it would be relatively simple. It seems like a straight up swap of the solenoid and motor.

 

[Nexxussian]

That looks like it still has field windings (notice the screw on the motor case, usually holds the pole shoes in).

It occured to me that there have been many advancements in automotive and light truck starters, specifically with the use of rare earth permanent magnets instead of copper wound electro magnets.

Two benefits for power output on those, the obvious one is all the power for the starter motor is used for the armature, the less obvious one (as you would have to see inside one to know) is they are a 6 pole motor (the ones I've seen are anyway).

Due to both, the motor itself can put out much more power and torque, before gear reduction.

I expect a permanent magnet motor equipped starter is not readily available for these, but perhaps one of the motors could be used with the rest of the starter?

At that point, the only thing that should be able to go bad with the motor are the brushes and the armature, and neither seem to go bad very often.

 

[astr]

...
Out of curiosity, where did you find that photo? ...

ZHANGZHOU WORLD AUTOPARTS INC CHINA ¡·¡· PRODUCTS SHOW I'm not suggesting buying from these guys. They just have some good pictures.

...Another thing to think about along the 12/24 switch setup, since this starter is 4kw at 24 volt (I think the stock 12 volt is 3kw or 3.5kw) it should be pulling 2kw at 12 volt. It might feel a little weak when compared to the stock 12 volt starter, but if you're in warm weather all the time I'm sure that would work just fine. I would never trust it up in the northeast, but in the end some of this work to be done needs to be justified by the needs of the individual..

I don't think that you could get away with running a 24 volt starter on 12 volts, hence the 12/24 volt switch. You would run two 12 volt batteries in parallel for normal running. When starting, they would be placed in series to get the 24 volts required by the starter.

 

[astr]

Regarding wading, the owners manual I have here for a 1985 Isuzu NPR states maximum wading depth as 1 metre. It warns to close the foot vents befor entering the water.

This is the record for the deepest wading I've ever seen in a factory publication.

Just for the heck of it, I took a meter stick out to the NPR (2002 but not much different than the earlier ones). At 1 meter, except for the top of the valve cover, the whole engine would be submerged including the complete alternator, starter and turbo. Transmission vent and fill tube would be below water as well as the vent for the rear axle. Unless you extended the various vents to higher locations, it seems you'd be doing some fluid changes after going that deep. It seems that getting your feet wet would be the least of your problems

 

[astr]

Starter clearance

As I try to lay out an alternate starter location, I'm trying to decide what the minimum clearances should be between the starter and the frame. The starter would be located between the engine and the frame rail. I'm guessing that 1" lateral clearance should suffice.

I'm not too concerned with torque reaction as this would tend to move the starter parallel to the frame.

Any input on this would be appreciated.

 

[vsa911]

Unless you're using some extremely forgiving engine and transmission mounts I imagine an inch would be fine. I assume you have a little less room between the frame rails in the LC than I have in the Cherokee, so if it looks like you have an inch of clearance I feel good about my prospects.

Along the lines of placement, will you be dropping the drivetrain lower in the frame at all? The 360 in my Jeep is not as tall as the 4hk1, but it is actually mounted a little higher than necessary when viewing everything from underneath the vehicle. I'm not going to be doing much in the way of serious offroading, so it's not like every inch of clearance is vital. While I'm trying to avoid much (if any) of a body lift I do plan on a 2" suspension lift and a move from 33" to 35" tires. In conjunction with a better fitting starter I hoping this gives me room to play with the vertical placement enough to avoid any changes to the floor lines. A lower center of gravity won't hurt my feelings, either!

 

[vsa911]

In response to Nexxussian: I don't have enough familiarity with any advancements with light vehicle starters to say whether or not a lot of the newer style motors are of similar size with similar output hardware. One thing I am really hoping to see is whether or not the starter and solenoid on my 12 volt starter can be swapped onto the mount from the 24 volt starter above. If that is the case I would say one of the biggest hurdles of using this engine/transmission combo will have been solved in a pretty elegant manner for a reasonable amount of money.

A few weeks ago I got a grilling from a friend that likes my current setup for his 1957 Ford pickup in 2wd fashion. I tried to talk him into going with a Mitsubishi 4M50 if he really wants a Japanese diesel and likes the AW450 or AW465 just to avoid the starter issue. He's holding off completely for the time being because he prefers the Isuzu motors (as do I) and wants to see if there will be a reasonable workaround. I imagine there are more people out there that would be ready to jump in if all of this proves to make the task less daunting.

 

[Nexxussian]

VSA911, I don't know if there is a medium duty starter that uses the permanent magnets, my biggest experience is with the Ford units (I don't know if those are 6 pole) but the one I have on my small Ford in my Model A is rated by Ford to crank their 14:1 compression, 468 CID racing crate engine; the starter is 4.4:1 planetary gear reduced IIRC.

I don't expect that motor would fit the 24V mount you have, but it's the same type of idea I was having.

It sounds like your idea is more realistic, and therefore better.

 

[vsa911]

I wouldn't say better, yet. Let's see what happens when I get one. I will hopefully have a Mitsubishi M8T85371 or equivalent in a week or so.

 

[astr]

Unless you're using some extremely forgiving engine and transmission mounts I imagine an inch would be fine. I assume you have a little less room between the frame rails in the LC than I have in the Cherokee, so if it looks like you have an inch of clearance I feel good about my prospects.

Along the lines of placement, will you be dropping the drivetrain lower in the frame at all? The 360 in my Jeep is not as tall as the 4hk1, but it is actually mounted a little higher than necessary when viewing everything from underneath the vehicle. I'm not going to be doing much in the way of serious offroading, so it's not like every inch of clearance is vital. While I'm trying to avoid much (if any) of a body lift I do plan on a 2" suspension lift and a move from 33" to 35" tires. In conjunction with a better fitting starter I hoping this gives me room to play with the vertical placement enough to avoid any changes to the floor lines. A lower center of gravity won't hurt my feelings, either!

The distance between the frame rails on a FJ62 is approximately 26.5". I expect to use the stock rear mount in the stock location. I will have to fab front mounts but I'm going to try and position the crank centerline at the same height as the 3FE centerline. Based on some preliminary guesstimates, I may have to raise the front of the engine a bit. I really don't expect to have a good idea for the final position until the 4HE1 is sitting in fj62's engine bay.

 

[fueg0]

bumpity bump bump for an update? -=)

 

[astr]

bumpity bump bump for an update? -=)

Sorry for the neglect. Trying to finish off some honey doo doos.

I do have the new starter mount designed and bought the steel. Just need to find the time to bend it and weld it..

 

[Nexxussian]

Make sure to take care of those honey dues, I don't care how nice that couch is, you don't want to sleep there.

Look forward to the update when we get it.

 

[astr]

Flex Plate Mounted

The spacer that allows me to mount the flex plate at the front of the engine is finished. Originally, I was going to make out of aluminum but decided on steel to avoid the possibility of galvanic corrosion. After all, the spacer will be sandwiched between a steel flex plate and the steel pulley. The first photo is of the finished spacer.

To insure that everything stays concentric with the crank, I machined a slight circular recess in the front of the pulley. This is a mirror image of the recess that already exits on the back of the pulley that lines it up with the crankshaft. The second photo shows the new recess on the front of the pulley.

Photo 3 shows the spacer and pulley mounted on the front of the engine. I use four M16 x 1.5 socket head bolts to hold the spacer and pulley to the crank. The heads of the bolts are recessed in the counterbores in the spacer. The four tapped holes will accept the bolts that hold the flex plate to the spacer.