Builds Isuzu 4HE1TC into FJ62

[astr]

You did see BobPr's posts on 4BTswaps with the industrial gear housings for these engines? They place the starter facing forwards on the right lower side of the engine.
Probably in a place to foul your front prop shaft.

I'll have to take another look. IIRC, the starter location on the industrial flywheel housings/gear housing would probably miss the front drive shaft but the back end of these housings is an SAE pattern, incompatible with the AW450 bell.

I really need to sit down and sort through and consider carefully all the various options presented by others earlier in this thread.

Another option may be to use the industrial flywheel housing and look for a bell that mates up to the AW450. It is possible that one of the other applications of the AW450 uses an SAE pattern.

 

[Pacer]

BAS Hybrid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Nexxussian]

ASTR, most automatics can be modded for push start, if you want to work at it.

You would need some way to lock the converter without the engine running (perhaps a hand pump and accumulator for the pressure with an override switch, or a bypass valve) and a way to lock the trans into a usefull gear.

If you have the electrical power you could do that with an override switch as well.

However, the most common cause of "starter failure" is a dead battery, at which point a bypass valve for the TC lockup, and a slave cylinder to act on whatever apply piston would engage the apropriate gear (I've seen setups like that on a dirt car, they use a go cart master cylinder to activate it, with a handle attached where the pedle would normally hook).

I know that's alot to design in, but it is one more opton (might be simpler to carry a small generator with a built in battery charger though ).

 

[ozwallaby]

If the FBH solution you have mentioned is a viable possibility except for maintenance/removal problems, you could always make a cutout clearance/access hole in the floor and cover it with a bulged plate ... seal it and it's all good... I still like the custom starter nose so you can rotate it toward the centreline of the car around the centreline of the starter gear.... not big dollars and you might be able to sell a few for other conversions

 

[astr]

ASTR, most automatics can be modded for push start, if you want to work at it...

In the old days, the automatics came with a second pump at the rear of the transmission so you could push start them. On the original AW450 that came with the NPR, there was a hose that went to a port at the top of the transmission. In conjunction with a solenoid valve, it was used to activate the clutches in the pto. I suspect that this port could be used to feed pressure into the transmission from an external source so push starting would be feasible.

If the FBH solution you have mentioned is a viable possibility except for maintenance/removal problems, you could always make a cutout clearance/access hole in the floor and cover it with a bulged plate ... seal it and it's all good... I still like the custom starter nose so you can rotate it toward the centreline of the car around the centreline of the starter gear.... not big dollars and you might be able to sell a few for other conversions

I'll take a look at both solutions. The first step will be to pull the 3FE and determine the exact location and extent of the conflict.

I once had an old Dodge van that had the engine between the front seats. Just had to tilt the lid back on the engine compartment to access the engine. Kind of convenient. You could almost do a tune up while driving . Maybe a mini version of this for the starter would be OK!

 

[SuperHatch]

Is the SAE pattern a radial array of evenly spaced bolts? Can you just rotate the bellhousing so that the starter ends up lower and below the floorboards? I understand this would then rotate the transmission as well, but it might be possible to modify those mounting bolts to work as well. Most bells locate themselves over the circumference of the pump body, so making that side work might be feasible with welding up the old holes and drilling new ones.

Just throwing it out there... anything to prevent the front starter of doom.

 

[astr]

Is the SAE pattern a radial array of evenly spaced bolts? Can you just rotate the bellhousing so that the starter ends up lower and below the floorboards? I understand this would then rotate the transmission as well, but it might be possible to modify those mounting bolts to work as well. Most bells locate themselves over the circumference of the pump body, so making that side work might be feasible with welding up the old holes and drilling new ones.

Just throwing it out there... anything to prevent the front starter of doom.

Unfortunately, the AW450 bell that mates it to the 4HE1 is not SAE. Also, the holes are not evenly spaced so you can't easily just clock the bell.

 

[SuperHatch]

Unfortunately, the AW450 bell that mates it to the 4HE1 is not SAE. Also, the holes are not evenly spaced so you can't easily just clock the bell.

Is there enough meat in the block mating surface (the ring around the flexplate) that would allow you to pick up a couple of the holes, and then drill/tap the remaining as necessary?

I hate to be so insistant, but I am in the planning stages of a diesel conversion on my FZJ80 and I am deciding between 4HE1/J05D/1HD... the 4HE1 is the least expensive alternative, but this starter issue could be a deal breaker.

 

[astr]

Is there enough meat in the block mating surface (the ring around the flexplate) that would allow you to pick up a couple of the holes, and then drill/tap the remaining as necessary?

I hate to be so insistant, but I am in the planning stages of a diesel conversion on my FZJ80 and I am deciding between 4HE1/J05D/1HD... the 4HE1 is the least expensive alternative, but this starter issue could be a deal breaker.

I'll try to take some pictures this weekend and you can decide for yourself. Personally, I have no intention of butchering up either the bell or the back of the block. If I were in your position, I would certainly not wait to make your swap decision based on a speedy resolution to the problem here. After all, its taken me almost two years to get to this point! One thing I did promise when I started this swap was that it was going to be SLOOOOW!

Actually, the pictures already exist. Take a look at Post #14 thru 20 for a good view of the transmission bell and Post #25 for a view of the back of the engine.

 

[astr]

Going forward - at least a few feet!

I've been itching to try and drive the NPR with the AW450 core hybrid transmission so I decided tonight was going to be the night. We have only a couple of inches of snow on the ground so I thought - No problem! WRONG! I drive staright out of the shop, go about 4 feet and I'm stuck! A combination of bald duallies, slick snow, and no weight on the back brought the truck to an absolute halt. I tried rocking the truck back and forth between R and D but no go. I ended up pushing it back into the shop with the LC.

While stuck, I was able to give the transmission a good work out. Seemed to shift really nicely through the gears with the back wheels spinning. Actually got the speedometer to read 97 mph! I was hoping for a nice 100 but I think the governor limited the max.

I also tried it with the T-case in low. Seemed to work fine there. I was originally concerned that running it in Low might cause the TCM to show an error code. My reasoning was that there are two speed sensors - one ahead of the T-case on the park gear and the second past the T-case on the speedometer drive. With the T-case in high, the TCM would see the normal ratio of pulses from the two sensors. However, in Low, the ratio of pulses that the TCM would see would be altered by T-case's gear ratio. I thought that maybe the TCM might interpret this as a problem and throw a code. Fortunately, the TCM isn't that smart - no error codes.

 

[Dougal]

Oh yeah, I could have told you that. An empty NPR will get stuck on a banana skin.
Even wet grass has them complete cast. With 1-2 ton on the back they start to get traction.

 

[astr]

Oh yeah, I could have told you that. An empty NPR will get stuck on a banana skin.
Even wet grass has them complete cast. With 1-2 ton on the back they start to get traction.

At least there was no one around to witness it

 

[Nexxussian]

Glad it seems to work.

Here's hoping the space outside the shop gets cleared or packed down enogh for the testbed to make it out the door.

I guess I've never had a NPR empty enough, or with a light enough box, I've never had that problem.;p

 

[Fromage]

Great progress. Absolutely fantastic.

Two thoughts -

The starter issue is what has been bugging me. If I were you I would solve it this way - Through a custom bellhousing. This seems like a very expensive proposition but this is the method I have seen used with great success.

The flange that mounts to the engine is cut out of steel, about half inch thickness. You can have it CNCd or punch it out on a manual machine, your choice, but since the bellhousing appears to center on a ring on the engine, the actual alignment should be easy to gauge. On this flange, a new mounting location for the starter (probably on the driver's side below the transmission, hopefully it could tuck in beside the pan) is made. So, you have a plate that mounts to the engine, and a starter mount too.

Next step is to make another plate having the outer dimensions of the mounting flange of the bellhousing to transmission joint. Do not machine the bolt holes or the inner diameter at this point.

Both plates are then separated in order to replicate the overall length of the bellhousing through a rough jig. The centering and parallellism of the surfaces is mocked up but is not required to be perfect.

The outer surface of the bellhousing, joining both "flanges" is then fabricated by rolling some 1/4 plate into shape and welding. This is time consuming but is actually not that difficult with a large press and some homemade dies. Multiple pieces are used, welded together, and then ground, and what is left is a bellhousing - but the trans end is still unmachined.

The entire bellhousing is then chucked in a lathe using the bellhousing to engine centering ring as a reference point. The bellhousing to transmission case surface is faced on the lathe (or a rotary table on a mill), the center bore of the bellhousing to transmission flange is bored out, and you punch out the mounting bolts later (which are fairly non-critical if the center bores and centering rings are well machined).

This would allow you to hang your starter anywhere you like and would be an easily fabbed shop type project with comparable strength and accuracy to original equipment.

Second thought:

Am I correct in assuming that trans diag code reading is done through plugging in a diagnostic wire (connection) and then counting the flashes on the trans indicator light? I have very little transmission literature and am curious to find out if I need to acquire specialized diag equipment.

 

[astr]

Great progress. Absolutely fantastic.

Two thoughts -

The starter issue is what has been bugging me. If I were you I would solve it this way - Through a custom bellhousing. This seems like a very expensive proposition but this is the method I have seen used with great success.

The flange that mounts to the engine is cut out of steel, about half inch thickness. You can have it CNCd or punch it out on a manual machine, your choice, but since the bellhousing appears to center on a ring on the engine, the actual alignment should be easy to gauge. On this flange, a new mounting location for the starter (probably on the driver's side below the transmission, hopefully it could tuck in beside the pan) is made. So, you have a plate that mounts to the engine, and a starter mount too.

Next step is to make another plate having the outer dimensions of the mounting flange of the bellhousing to transmission joint. Do not machine the bolt holes or the inner diameter at this point.

Both plates are then separated in order to replicate the overall length of the bellhousing through a rough jig. The centering and parallellism of the surfaces is mocked up but is not required to be perfect.

The outer surface of the bellhousing, joining both "flanges" is then fabricated by rolling some 1/4 plate into shape and welding. This is time consuming but is actually not that difficult with a large press and some homemade dies. Multiple pieces are used, welded together, and then ground, and what is left is a bellhousing - but the trans end is still unmachined.

The entire bellhousing is then chucked in a lathe using the bellhousing to engine centering ring as a reference point. The bellhousing to transmission case surface is faced on the lathe (or a rotary table on a mill), the center bore of the bellhousing to transmission flange is bored out, and you punch out the mounting bolts later (which are fairly non-critical if the center bores and centering rings are well machined).

This would allow you to hang your starter anywhere you like and would be an easily fabbed shop type project with comparable strength and accuracy to original equipment.

Second thought:

Am I correct in assuming that trans diag code reading is done through plugging in a diagnostic wire (connection) and then counting the flashes on the trans indicator light? I have very little transmission literature and am curious to find out if I need to acquire specialized diag equipment.

Thanks for your response and insight.

There are two options for locating the starter: 1) at the rear - from the front, alongside the engine and 2) as currently from the rear but clocked to a different location so as not to conflict with the sheetmetal.

There are two items working in conjunction with each other that determine the position of the starter - the transmission bell housing AND the flywheel housing. In the case of the 4HE1, the flywheel housing also contains the complete geartrain for the cam, oil pump, P/S pump, and IP. To mount the starter forward would require penetrating the complex casting of the flywheel housing. It isn't just a matter of cutting a hole and adding a starter mounting surface, but you also have to seal this penetration as the whole geartrain runs in oil.

To clock a rear-mounted starter to a different position would also require modification of the flywheel housing. If you look at the second photo in Post #25, you can see a pocket in the flywheel housing at about the 10 o'clock position that the starter pinion fits into. As the flexplate with the ring gear sits back inside the flywheel housing the the flywheel housing would have to be modified to provide a pocket at the new starter position to accept the starter pinion.

Another alternative for a rear-mounted starter would be to make a spacer to move the whole flywheel/flexplate backward so the ring gear sits behind and clear of the flywheel housing and make a new bell housing using the approach that you suggested. Keep in mind that with a rear-mounted starter, there are limited positions where a starter could be located without conflicting with the transmission and the front d-shaft/T-case, especially if you want to avoid severe intrusions into the firewall/transmission tunnel.

I currently have a blown 4HE1 set up on a stand and am trying to mock up various options.

The transmission codes are the flashy-flashy kind. Once I deciphered the FSM (rather bad translation to English) they were easy to read. Insert a jumper into what appears to be an ODBII connector, turn the key to ON, put transmission into N, step on the brake pedal and the accelerator pedal, all these things simultaneously and hold for 5 sec and the "Transmission Trouble" light will flash the error codes. I ran into a problem that the accelerator switch and brake switch were broken or missing so I had to fix those before I could read my codes. NO SPECIAL DIAGNOSTIC EQUIPMENT REQUIRED.

 

[Nexxussian]

NO SPECIAL DIAGNOSTIC EQUIPMENT REQUIRED.

Better and Better.

 

[astr]

Did some measuring and playing around this past weekend with a front-mounted starter. It looks like it will tuck nicely alongside the left front of the engine. This position will require a custom water outlet that feeds the bottom of the radiator. Fabing one looks to be a straight forward task. Here is a mock up of the starter in this position.

 

[Combat Chuck]

I forsee a new Bond Villain in the making...

 

[astr]

I forsee a new Bond Villain in the making...

If this ends up as the final solution, I'm going to have to get some of those chain mail gloves like butchers use to work on the truck

Actually, I don't think it will be all that bad. The ring gear is down far enough so you would have to really work at getting your hand down into it. If you did, I suspect that you'd end up with less damage than sticking your hand into the fan, plastic or not. Are there any volunteers willing to test my hypothesis?

I did some preliminary measurements and it looks like I may encounter some interference on the bottom side with the ring gear possibly hitting the tie rod. This is based on the 4HE1 crank centerline being located exactly where the 3FE crank centerline now is and NO LIFT. The solution may only require raising the front of the 4HE1 an inch or two.

 

[vsa911]

It's been a little while since I've been on, and I apologize for not getting all the info I was talking about posted up. I took a little break this winter to throw a turbo on my old Ski Doo. It would have been fun if the snow had stayed for more than 13 miles of riding time! Oh well.

I re-read the post where I tried to brag about my memory, and I think I posted the starter rotation incorrectly. I'm pretty sure these are CCW, not CW, but I may just be getting dizzy from trying to read through all of my crap on scrap paper. Please set me straight if I'm wrong about that.

I have some of the part numbers I had found last year when I was looking for an alternative starter. These are OEM equivalents. Personally, I'm (maybe) settled on one of two options. The most desirable to me is removing the front housing from the existing starter, removing the existing mounting extensions and welding them back on the housing as to clock the starter as tightly as feasible to the lower side of the transmission. Option two will be to use the equivalent 24V direct-drive starter and similarly machine the front housing to bolt up clean. Option one requires only one electrical system, but option two is physically cleaner/more compact.

OEM ISUZU 8972077860, 8972077861, 8972077862
ARROWHEAD SND0632
DIXIE S-80086
GM 97207786
NIPPONDENSO 228000-8180, 228000-8181, 228000-8182 (REMAN 9722809-818)
WILSON 91-29-5515