Builds Isuzu 4HE1TC into FJ62 (1 Viewer)

[astr]

Keep going asta... great job... there should be a 6 star rating for legendary write ups like this one.....the diff ratios you are speaking of are 3.7:1 (37:10) and 4.11:1 (37:9)... both are standard Toyota ratios... I actually don't know of or even if, there are any other std ratios in other models (earlier or later) though as far as I know these are the only ratios available std in 6x series...

Thanks for the comp. Actually this documentation is as much for myself as it is for others. I keep going back to this thread to help remember what I did yesterday!

I'm also very interested in what mudmud ends up doing with his build. Originally, my plan was to take my converted FJ62 down to Costa Rica. I now have a line on a decent HJ47 Troopy down there. If I end up with it, I might be tempted to drive it up here and throw a 4HE1 in it also so good documentation is vital.

 

[mudmud]

mudmud: I'll measure the length tomorrow. I'm working with the 4HE!, Aisin AW450 and the FJ62 split T-case. Is this the combo that you are contemplating?

The 4HE1/AW450/Split T-case combo measures 65" from the plate that the OE fan mounts on to the back of the rear output flange on the T-case.

Thanks, its become apparent to me that this would be the strongest way to go, I certainly do not want to be rebuilding trannies all the time.... I guess the real measure I would need tho is engine/trans/t-case, that way I can cad it up and see how I can play with that ole front and back drive shaft issue!!

Can't wait to see this one running on YouTube again!!!

 

[ozwallaby]

Thanks for the comp. Actually this documentation is as much for myself as it is for others. I keep going back to this thread to help remember what I did yesterday!

I'm also very interested in what mudmud ends up doing with his build. Originally, my plan was to take my converted FJ62 down to Costa Rica. I now have a line on a decent HJ47 Troopy down there. If I end up with it, I might be tempted to drive it up here and throw a 4HE1 in it also so good documentation is vital.

Regarding the troopy... before you get too far down the 4he1 path with it... check on the chassis width... my brain says they are narrower than 60s so it might give you even more fitting dramas... just a thought before you get too set on it....

 

[astr]

Regarding the troopy... before you get too far down the 4he1 path with it... check on the chassis width... my brain says they are narrower than 60s so it might give you even more fitting dramas... just a thought before you get too set on it....

Thanks for the heads up! At thisd stage the Troopy project is just a pipe dream. I was hoping that mudmud would go the 4HE1 route for his 40 and sort out all the problems

 

[mudmud]

Thanks for the heads up! At thisd stage the Troopy project is just a pipe dream. I was hoping that mudmud would go the 4HE1 route for his 40 and sort out all the problems

Hey, well no decisions yet on my part!! I'm in the "mulling it over" stage. One factor unfortunenty might hinge on what's avalible in my area.... shipping to Alaska sucks!!

 

[Nexxussian]

Yep, shipping to here is mucho bumero.

If you find the hole they push the Isuzu tucks off into as they become affordable (older) let me know and I'll help you haul a few out.

If not, I have saved a fair amount by shipping things to the port of Tacoma and north from there on Northland Services (barge, slow, have them pack it well, wrap it in plastic first).

Hope that helps.

 

[Nexxussian]

If however you would be interested in a 6BD1T, I may know where there are 2 of those, one blown up, one supposedly runs.

Both are manual trans equipped though.

But I believe they have the SAE #3 flywheel housings on them, so other possibilities for transmissions and adapters.

 

[mudmud]

Hey,

Thanks for the shipping issue, I'll have to try that!

The 6BT1T sounds big and heavy... I might be wrong about that but I'm leaning to the 4BD1T because it sounds like the less expensive route, I'd do the 4HE1 if I got a screaming deal.... I don't know anything about the 6BT1T.... but def want auto... and I'm leaning toward finding a wreak so I can pull all the stuff off I want....

 

[astr]

TCM Error Code Fixed

The solution to the TCM error code was simple once I found the problem: Identifying the problem was considerably more involved. The error code that I kept getting was 33, Timing solenoid wire broken or shorted. The problem was a defective transmission wiring harness – the wire for the Timing Solenoid was switched with one of the wires from the temp sensor as it passed through the seal in the transmission case. The red wire inside the case was connected to blue wire outside the case and visa versa. The final solution was to simply switch the two wires at the connector (J71) that hooks to the chassis harness.

I suspect that this new transmission ended up at the GM training center because of this harness problem – it didn’t pass the final QC so it was sent to there for the students to practice on.

During the troubleshooting process, I can upon two significant errors in the FSM that had me going in circles: There are discrepancies in the wiring diagrams for the TCM. The TCM wiring diagram in the Chassis Wiring Section of the FSM has the wrong pin numbers assigned to connector J-71 (Page 8-124, Fig. 141). The same diagram appears in the Automatic Transmission section (Page 7A2-56, Fig 11) and there the pin numbers are correct. The pin numbers are also shown correctly in the mini diagrams in the Transmission Troubleshooting Section.

The second problem that I encountered in the FSM was in the only Figure that identified which solenoid was which (Page 7A4-73, Fig 271). They are mislabeled in this Figure. Item #9 is identified as Timing Solenoid where actually it is No. 2 Shift Solenoid, Item #10 is identified as No. 2 Shift Solenoid where it actually is No. 1 Shift Solenoid, and Item No. 11 is identified as No. 1 Shift Solenoid where it actually is the Timing Solenoid. Below is a photo of the valve body with the solenoids properly identified.

Now that everything is wired up correctly, the transmission shifts beautifully and I get no error codes! It’s time to pull the truck off the jack stands and take it for a spin

Just a side note – during the troubleshooting process, I managed to get the torque converter lockup solenoid activated inadvertently. As Dougal had predicted elsewhere in this thread, when I stomped the brakes with the lockup active, the engine would stall. This suggests that manually activating the lockup could be an effective way of using engine braking when descending a steep slope; even with the engine at idle.

 

[Dougal]

Your patience and thoroughness continues to astound me.

 

[Nexxussian]

What Dougal said.

 

[astr]

Thanks guys!

Did get the NPR off the jack stands but it has been below 0* F here so I'll wait for it to warm up a bit before going for a drive. Yeh, I'm a wimp!

Meanwhile, it's time to address the starter issue. Just a quick review of the situation first: The 4HE1 engine has the internal gear train that drives the cam, oil pump, IP, etc., located at the rear of the engine so access to the flywheel is limited from the front beacause of all stuff that's back there. So Isuzu decided to mount the starter from the rear, alongside the transmission. There is a good photo of the starter in Post #255 https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/268941-isuzu-4he1tc-into-fj62-13.html. This is great solution for the NPR configuration but creates a conflict when the engine is swapped into a LC: the starter and accelerator pedal would occupy the same space (at least for those of us that drive on the correct side of the road).

So the starter need to be relocated. In keeping with my basic premise of using standard parts where ever possible, at least for wear items, this is the approach I'm thinking about. Take a standard torque converter flex plate, along with the starter ring gear and mount it in front of the front pulley then mount the standard 4HE1 starter alongside the engine block. In essenece, move the complete starter system to the front of the engine.

A quick look at this approach reveals that the flex plate mounting holes line up with the front pulley mounting holes but a spacer would have to be made to move the flex plate in front of the pulley and to provide clearance with the water pump. Because of the diameter of the flex plate, the engine-driven fan won't be able to be used so an electric fan would have to be fitted. A mount for the starter would have to be fabbed and a location found at the front of the engine that doesn't interfere with alternators, A/C compressors, etc.

Concerns that I have with this approach: Will belts be able to be changed without removing the flex plate? How susceptible to damage would a flex plate be in this location?

An feedback on this approach would be appreciated.

 

[Nexxussian]

I don't know how susceptible to damage it would be, I would be more concerned with the damage it could do to everything around it, unless you equipped it with a shroud of some sort.

 

[Combat Chuck]

I don't know how susceptible to damage it would be, I would be more concerned with the damage it could do to everything around it, unless you equipped it with a shroud of some sort.

damage that would be AWESOME for disposing of car theives caught in the act...

 

[astr]

I don't know how susceptible to damage it would be, I would be more concerned with the damage it could do to everything around it, unless you equipped it with a shroud of some sort.

I thought about that but would it be really any more hazard than the fan? Especially, the direct-drive all-metal fans of yesteryear!

damage that would be AWESOME for disposing of car theives caught in the act...

How about using it to saw firewood while camping

 

[ozwallaby]

I definitely dislike the front starter idea, though unfortunately it may be the only alternative. Just about any other option would be better I think. For me it's about how VERY professionally this swap has been done so far and to do that with starter and flex plate seems so agricultural as my old man would say. Having said that though, I'm sure you would make a great job of it astr, but it's still a no vote from me.

My thoughts and you've probably already looked at these anyway, would be to first see if there any way to clock the starter around the starter shaft centre line, even to the point of making a completely new nose for the starter which puts the motor part in a better position. Further toward the top of the engine may be best, as any massaging of the floor/transmission hump will be further away from the gas pedal. I can't recall if you have mentioned anything about body lift, but there may be some extra room available if you went that route... or placing the engine a little further forward... perhaps a shorter starter motor if you can source one.... a hybrid right angle drive system, which sees the starter motor proper laying across the bell housing area.... a right hand drive vehicle even...I know I'm clutching at straws here, but I really don't want to see that starter up front.

 

[Nexxussian]

I thought about that but would it be really any more hazard than the fan? Especially, the direct-drive all-metal fans of yesteryear!

Yeah, but the fans today are shrouded, plastic and clutched.

There are alot of things that we used to do that would be considered negligence at best if you did them today.

How about using it to saw firewood while camping

I knew I wasn't the only one watching Red Green.

 

[Combat Chuck]

I definitely dislike the front starter idea, though unfortunately it may be the only alternative. Just about any other option would be better I think. For me it's about how VERY professionally this swap has been done so far and to do that with starter and flex plate seems so agricultural as my old man would say. Having said that though, I'm sure you would make a great job of it astr, but it's still a no vote from me.

My thoughts and you've probably already looked at these anyway, would be to first see if there any way to clock the starter around the starter shaft centre line, even to the point of making a completely new nose for the starter which puts the motor part in a better position. Further toward the top of the engine may be best, as any massaging of the floor/transmission hump will be further away from the gas pedal. I can't recall if you have mentioned anything about body lift, but there may be some extra room available if you went that route... or placing the engine a little further forward... perhaps a shorter starter motor if you can source one.... a hybrid right angle drive system, which sees the starter motor proper laying across the bell housing area.... a right hand drive vehicle even...I know I'm clutching at straws here, but I really don't want to see that starter up front.

I honestly must agree, the idea sounds dangerous and oddball.
What about outboarding the starter motor further up, and connecting it to the gear inside the BH with a braced shaft from the nose cone?

Or simplest yet, how about swapping the Isuzu pedal in and a mild body lift to buy space?

 

[astr]

“Agricultural” huh, LOL, I like that!

When I first came up with the front flexplate idea, I was also uncomfortable with it. It seemed somehow un, un, unpatriotic or something. After all, who mounts a starter on the front of an engine, especially with a big honkin flexplate at the front of the engine? Definitely, not an elegant solution!

Let’s review the objectives. My plan is to eventually drive the FJ62 with the diesel conversion down to Costa Rica. So it is important for me to me to end up with a reliable, maintainable vehicle, one that can be serviced in the field with readily available parts. I believe that I have generally met this objective so far. Even though I have made some special parts, I don’t expect that the custom spacers will likely be a failure point.

The starter is a crucial issue. Having committed to an automatic transmission, a starter failure means the truck is not going anywhere. You can’t push-start an automatic and the 4HE1 never came with a hand crank! So, ideally you would want to use a standard, off-the-shelf starter that is mounted to the engine in a way that allows easy removal in the field.

Any solution that results in the starter remaining in the stock location (body lifts, gently caressing the transmission tunnel with a BFH, etc.) will most likely result in a starter that will be very difficult to access in the field. All the 4HE1 bell housings that I’ve been able to identify that use a conventional front-mounted starter won’t bolt to the AW450 transmission.

The ideal solution would be a custom bell housing but making such an item is beyond my level of expertise and budget.

I think I’m going to take a dual approach – mock up the flexplate solution on a junk 4HE1 that I have and pull the 3FE out of the LC, stick an AW450 bell housing on the stock A440F to see exactly what I’m up against as far as starter interference. Meanwhile, I’m open to alternate ideas! I’m also rereading the whole thread as many ideas were presented earlier.

Just a though for others who might be considering a similar approach – the AW450 was fitted to a bunch of other brands of engines. These engines probably used conventionally-positioned starters which would avoid the whole “starter repositioning” problem. I have too much committed to the 4HE1 to consider switching but it might be an option for others.

 

[Dougal]

You did see BobPr's posts on 4BTswaps with the industrial gear housings for these engines? They place the starter facing forwards on the right lower side of the engine.
Probably in a place to foul your front prop shaft.