Issue getting power to rear wheels, TC or locker issue? (1 Viewer)

[ZigZagZero]

Hello all,

I have a 97 LX that came without CDL button and no stock lockers. It now has CDL and pin 7 mod done as well as Eaton e lockers front and rear wired to an OEM switch. The dash light for the CDL is out, but I can hear it engage and have verified that it’s at least partially working by lifting one corner off the ground and being unable to free spin it when the button is depressed.

As seen in the video on this obstacle, only my front tires were spinning when I had CDL engaged with FR/RR lockers engaged as well. I plan to replace the bulb in the dash, but I don’t think that’s my main issue so I lifted up all 4 corners today and tested some things out:


CDL Engaged (and disengaged): hand turning one front tire forward moves both rear tires in reverse

Hand turning rear tire does not move front tires, rear tires turn opposite direction

CDL and rear locker engaged: no change from above

CDL and FR/RR locked: hand turning one front tire causes the other front tire to turn in same direction, rear tires spin in reverse together

Hand turning rear does not turn front tires, rear tires spin opposite of each other **some binding is felt and this caused the front wheels to want to turn

Based on the above I assumed the rear locker is the issue, and it very well may be! But! On pavement while driving around my circle drive very slowly, I engaged the rear locker without CDL and had binding/dragging of the passenger rear tire while turning left in a circle. That would mean the rear locker is working, right? Maybe it’s an intermittent issue, but I’d really like to solve this without opening the diffs or transfer case. Any ideas?

VIDEO:

**The lockers/gears and CDL/Pin 7 were done by the PO through Land Cruiser Specialist in Austin, TX. Viscous coupler was also removed at this time.

 

[ThreeEyedBandit]

Sounds like a problem with the CDL not locking, everything else sounds like normal operation with the Eaton's. I'd start with the CDL/t-case.

 

[BILT4ME]

Hello all,

I have a 97 LX that came without CDL button and no stock lockers. It now has CDL and pin 7 mod done as well as Eaton e lockers front and rear wired to an OEM switch. The dash light for the CDL is out, but I can hear it engage and have verified that it’s at least partially working by lifting one corner off the ground and being unable to free spin it when the button is depressed.

As seen in the video on this obstacle, only my front tires were spinning when I had CDL engaged with FR/RR lockers engaged as well. I plan to replace the bulb in the dash, but I don’t think that’s my main issue so I lifted up all 4 corners today and tested some things out:


CDL Engaged (and disengaged): hand turning one front tire forward moves both rear tires in reverse

Hand turning rear tire does not move front tires, rear tires turn opposite direction

CDL and rear locker engaged: no change from above

CDL and FR/RR locked: hand turning one front tire causes the other front tire to turn in same direction, rear tires spin in reverse together

Hand turning rear does not turn front tires, rear tires spin opposite of each other **some binding is felt and this caused the front wheels to want to turn

Based on the above I assumed the rear locker is the issue, and it very well may be! But! On pavement while driving around my circle drive very slowly, I engaged the rear locker without CDL and had binding/dragging of the passenger rear tire while turning left in a circle. That would mean the rear locker is working, right? Maybe it’s an intermittent issue, but I’d really like to solve this without opening the diffs or transfer case. Any ideas?

VIDEO:

**The lockers/gears and CDL/Pin 7 were done by the PO through Land Cruiser Specialist in Austin, TX. Viscous coupler was also removed at this time.

If the VC was removed, then yeah, it's totally the CDL not engaging. Either the switch is not working properly, the Pin 7 Mod was not actually done, or the CDL isn't working.

Not sure if you were in Low Range during that example above, as that should have been engaged on the CDL if the Pin 7 was not done.

 

[ZigZagZero]

If the VC was removed, then yeah, it's totally the CDL not engaging. Either the switch is not working properly, the Pin 7 Mod was not actually done, or the CDL isn't working.

Not sure if you were in Low Range during that example above, as that should have been engaged on the CDL if the Pin 7 was not done.

I was in low range yes. I’m new to the platform, can you help me understand what the VC delete would do to mess up the CDL? The PO wasn’t really sure why he had it removed. And should I undo the pin 7 mod?

 

[BILT4ME]

I was in low range yes. I’m new to the platform, can you help me understand what the VC delete would do to mess up the CDL? The PO wasn’t really sure why he had it removed. And should I undo the pin 7 mod?

If you have the CDL switch installed and the Pin 7 mod completed, it's a good thing.

Check the fuse in the fuse panel by your left knee to be sure the fuse for the CDL isn't blown. Pull it and test it, don't just look at it.

When the switch is depressed, move the vehicle slightly and the light should engage and the switch should audibly click. Then you'll feel a slight "heaviness" in the steering since it locked the front and rear wheels together.

From the factory, the CDL would only be engaged when in Low Range. You could place it in LR, then make sure it was engaged, shut off the truck, pull the fuse, restart, then move to HR and it would keep the CDL engaged until you replaced the fuse.

Without the CDL engaged, you are driving a truck with an "open differential" between the front and rear. If one wheel is lifted off the ground, you're not going anywhere.

The CDL switch and the Pin 7 Mod allows to you engage the CDL in either high range or low range and while driving at speed. I can be rolling on the highway and turn it on. As long as I'm not in a hard turn on dry pavement, it won't harm anything.

The VC is a power transmission device that allows SOME of the power to be transferred to the axle with the traction, but you need to gouge on the throttle to make that happen. I like to have it in my truck because it makes it extremely stable on snow covered or rain covered highways at speed without the CDL engaged.

Since your VC has been removed, you don't have that transfer at all unless the CDL is engaged.

You have taken the time to lift the corners of the truck to diagnose what is locked up when and that appears to be correct.

I am going to guess and say you could remove the CDL switch on the top of the transmission (not the one in the cab) and clean it (IIRC it's a ball type switch) and may be cleaned to be able to actuate better. You could also pull the switch out of the dash and make sure it's making connection.

If the PO pulled the bulb out of the dash....Why? That seems stupid. Unless he's trying to cover up something he didn't really do or couldn't figure out.
It would be rare that it would burn out. It took 10 years of my ABS light being on and about 170K miles before it finally burned out.

 

[ZigZagZero]

If you have the CDL switch installed and the Pin 7 mod completed, it's a good thing.

Check the fuse in the fuse panel by your left knee to be sure the fuse for the CDL isn't blown. Pull it and test it, don't just look at it.

When the switch is depressed, move the vehicle slightly and the light should engage and the switch should audibly click. Then you'll feel a slight "heaviness" in the steering since it locked the front and rear wheels together.

From the factory, the CDL would only be engaged when in Low Range. You could place it in LR, then make sure it was engaged, shut off the truck, pull the fuse, restart, then move to HR and it would keep the CDL engaged until you replaced the fuse.

Without the CDL engaged, you are driving a truck with an "open differential" between the front and rear. If one wheel is lifted off the ground, you're not going anywhere.

The CDL switch and the Pin 7 Mod allows to you engage the CDL in either high range or low range and while driving at speed. I can be rolling on the highway and turn it on. As long as I'm not in a hard turn on dry pavement, it won't harm anything.

The VC is a power transmission device that allows SOME of the power to be transferred to the axle with the traction, but you need to gouge on the throttle to make that happen. I like to have it in my truck because it makes it extremely stable on snow covered or rain covered highways at speed without the CDL engaged.

Since your VC has been removed, you don't have that transfer at all unless the CDL is engaged.

You have taken the time to lift the corners of the truck to diagnose what is locked up when and that appears to be correct.

I am going to guess and say you could remove the CDL switch on the top of the transmission (not the one in the cab) and clean it (IIRC it's a ball type switch) and may be cleaned to be able to actuate better. You could also pull the switch out of the dash and make sure it's making connection.

If the PO pulled the bulb out of the dash....Why? That seems stupid. Unless he's trying to cover up something he didn't really do or couldn't figure out.
It would be rare that it would burn out. It took 10 years of my ABS light being on and about 170K miles before it finally burned out.

I see, thanks for all the details! It has 280k on it and he reports the light did work before so we’ll see. I really don’t want to tear into the dash but if it must be done.

Checking that switch on the housing is definitely on the to-do list and I’ll jump the sensor for the bulb just to make sure. I definitely hear it engage, the actuator is very audible and the click behind the fuse panel as well. Maybe it’s just not seating all the way if that’s a possibility

 

[azusa]

Hello all,

I have a 97 LX that came without CDL button and no stock lockers. It now has CDL and pin 7 mod done as well as Eaton e lockers front and rear wired to an OEM switch. The dash light for the CDL is out, but I can hear it engage and have verified that it’s at least partially working by lifting one corner off the ground and being unable to free spin it when the button is depressed.

As seen in the video on this obstacle, only my front tires were spinning when I had CDL engaged with FR/RR lockers engaged as well. I plan to replace the bulb in the dash, but I don’t think that’s my main issue so I lifted up all 4 corners today and tested some things out:


CDL Engaged (and disengaged): hand turning one front tire forward moves both rear tires in reverse

Hand turning rear tire does not move front tires, rear tires turn opposite direction

CDL and rear locker engaged: no change from above

CDL and FR/RR locked: hand turning one front tire causes the other front tire to turn in same direction, rear tires spin in reverse together

Hand turning rear does not turn front tires, rear tires spin opposite of each other **some binding is felt and this caused the front wheels to want to turn

Based on the above I assumed the rear locker is the issue, and it very well may be! But! On pavement while driving around my circle drive very slowly, I engaged the rear locker without CDL and had binding/dragging of the passenger rear tire while turning left in a circle. That would mean the rear locker is working, right? Maybe it’s an intermittent issue, but I’d really like to solve this without opening the diffs or transfer case. Any ideas?

VIDEO:

**The lockers/gears and CDL/Pin 7 were done by the PO through Land Cruiser Specialist in Austin, TX. Viscous coupler was also removed at this time.

If the rear tires are rotating in different directions with the locker engaged, that would indicate that it's not locked or you might have a broken axle or some kind of malfunction inside the locking mechanism. When locked they should turn in the same direction. You mention that you have binding when you lock the rear diff, I would double check the CDL is not getting locked when you lock the rears.

 

[ZigZagZero]

If the rear tires are rotating in different directions with the locker engaged, that would indicate that it's not locked or you might have a broken axle or some kind of malfunction inside the locking mechanism. When locked they should turn in the same direction. You mention that you have binding when you lock the rear diff, I would double check the CDL is not getting locked when you lock the rears.

Will do. Could it maybe just have needed load to lock the rear instead of floating in the air?

 

[ThreeEyedBandit]

Will do. Could it maybe just have needed load to lock the rear instead of floating in the air?

The Eaton will act this way. The carrier needs to turn a little when engaged, then it will lock. Nothing you describe above warrants looking anywhere else other than the center diff currently.

 

[TheBussman]

If the rear tires are rotating in different directions with the locker engaged, that would indicate that it's not locked or you might have a broken axle or some kind of malfunction inside the locking mechanism. When locked they should turn in the same direction. You mention that you have binding when you lock the rear diff, I would double check the CDL is not getting locked when you lock the rears.

normal for Eaton lockers until the pinion turns a little.

 

[azusa]

Will do. Could it maybe just have needed load to lock the rear instead of floating in the air?

No load needed, the pinion does need to turn for it to lock. I have not measured how much the pinion needs to turn but it can't be more than a turn of the drive shaft, More than likely a quarter turn of the drive shaft. Lock the rear, lift The rear tires and turn the drive shaft by hand. Then spin the tires, now both tires should spin in the same direction.

 

[ZigZagZero]

If you have the CDL switch installed and the Pin 7 mod completed, it's a good thing.

Check the fuse in the fuse panel by your left knee to be sure the fuse for the CDL isn't blown. Pull it and test it, don't just look at it.

When the switch is depressed, move the vehicle slightly and the light should engage and the switch should audibly click. Then you'll feel a slight "heaviness" in the steering since it locked the front and rear wheels together.

From the factory, the CDL would only be engaged when in Low Range. You could place it in LR, then make sure it was engaged, shut off the truck, pull the fuse, restart, then move to HR and it would keep the CDL engaged until you replaced the fuse.

Without the CDL engaged, you are driving a truck with an "open differential" between the front and rear. If one wheel is lifted off the ground, you're not going anywhere.

The CDL switch and the Pin 7 Mod allows to you engage the CDL in either high range or low range and while driving at speed. I can be rolling on the highway and turn it on. As long as I'm not in a hard turn on dry pavement, it won't harm anything.

The VC is a power transmission device that allows SOME of the power to be transferred to the axle with the traction, but you need to gouge on the throttle to make that happen. I like to have it in my truck because it makes it extremely stable on snow covered or rain covered highways at speed without the CDL engaged.

Since your VC has been removed, you don't have that transfer at all unless the CDL is engaged.

You have taken the time to lift the corners of the truck to diagnose what is locked up when and that appears to be correct.

I am going to guess and say you could remove the CDL switch on the top of the transmission (not the one in the cab) and clean it (IIRC it's a ball type switch) and may be cleaned to be able to actuate better. You could also pull the switch out of the dash and make sure it's making connection.

If the PO pulled the bulb out of the dash....Why? That seems stupid. Unless he's trying to cover up something he didn't really do or couldn't figure out.
It would be rare that it would burn out. It took 10 years of my ABS light being on and about 170K miles before it finally burned out.

Been a while, you were right on the bulb not being out. Finally got a chance to get under it and check the two switches on the housing. Jumping the plug made the light come on. I ordered the two replacement switches and will try again. That should solve it right?

 

[BILT4ME]

Been a while, you were right on the bulb not being out. Finally got a chance to get under it and check the two switches on the housing. Jumping the plug made the light come on. I ordered the two replacement switches and will try again. That should solve it right?

Not necessarily.

It may or may not be the switch.
Was the fuse blown?

It's possible that the mechanism is not moving properly.

I'm going to reread what you posted for more thoughts.

 

[ZigZagZero]

Not necessarily.

It may or may not be the switch.
Was the fuse blown?

It's possible that the mechanism is not moving properly.

I'm going to reread what you posted for more thoughts.

Fuses in the kick panel were fine. Should add I tested one tire off the ground again per a YouTube video that goes into detail. One tire up with transmission in N allowed me to free spin no matter what- CDL locked, low range didn’t lock it up

 

[BILT4ME]

Fuses in the kick panel were fine. Should add I tested one tire off the ground again per a YouTube video that goes into detail. One tire up with transmission in N allowed me to free spin no matter what- CDL locked, low range didn’t lock it up

Did you wire the Eaton lockers to the OEM switch or did someone else do it?

 

[ZigZagZero]

Did you wire the Eaton lockers to the OEM switch or did someone else do it?

A different shop did the lockers before I purchased. I did not retest the front or rear lockers today. Just the center diff lock with one front corner up

 

[BILT4ME]

A different shop did the lockers before I purchased. I did not retest the front or rear lockers today. Just the center diff lock with one front corner up

I think it's your OEM switch not allowing the CDL to lock.

When it's a 3X factory truck, the switch will ONLY allow lockup in this order:
CDL
Rear differential
Front differential

If the CDL doesn't lock, the rear won't lock.
If the rear isn't locked, the front won't lock.

Do you have any of the front or rear locker lights lighting up when you are engaging things? Or are the lights flashing?

Didn't you say the VC was removed?
If that's the case, your CDL is definitely NOT locking.

You need to follow the FSM to diagnose that circuit properly.

You seem to be a parts cannon guy, but you need to fully understand what you're doing.

 

[ZigZagZero]

I think it's your OEM switch not allowing the CDL to lock.

When it's a 3X factory truck, the switch will ONLY allow lockup in this order:
CDL
Rear differential
Front differential

If the CDL doesn't lock, the rear won't lock.
If the rear isn't locked, the front won't lock.

Do you have any of the front or rear locker lights lighting up when you are engaging things? Or are the lights flashing?

Didn't you say the VC was removed?
If that's the case, your CDL is definitely NOT locking.

You need to follow the FSM to diagnose that circuit properly.

You seem to be a parts cannon guy, but you need to fully understand what you're doing.

Front and rear locker lights will come on regardless of the CDL or being in low range.

I am still confused on the VC thing, are you saying the CDL won’t lock without it??

Not trying to throw parts at it blindly, the switches are cheap and easy to replace and seem like a common thing so I thought I’d try them.

It was a factory unlocked 80 so all the Eaton wiring was done new to the OEM switch, not sure if it was wired as a stock triple locked truck would have been.

And for the sake of clarity I’m replacing the ball switches on the housing— the indicator switch towards the front and the 4L switch at the rear.

 

[BILT4ME]

Front and rear locker lights will come on regardless of the CDL or being in low range.

I am still confused on the VC thing, are you saying the CDL won’t lock without it??

Not trying to throw parts at it blindly, the switches are cheap and easy to replace and seem like a common thing so I thought I’d try them.

It was a factory unlocked 80 so all the Eaton wiring was done new to the OEM switch, not sure if it was wired as a stock triple locked truck would have been.

Without the VC, the center diff is literally an open diff. That's exactly what your video shows when only your front tires are spinning. That means the rear had more traction that the front, so the front spun.

The CDL MUST be locked to get power to both front and rear diff, or it will just randomly float between F&R. If ONE tire loses traction, you're stuck.
It will work fine on smooth, level, even traction surfaces. If you are on slick (snow or water or mud) surfaces, then you may lose all traction because one tire starts to slip excessively.

The VC allows the viscous friction internally to force the front axle to move if enough force is sent to make it have power. That means more RPM and HP pushed through it, creating heat. When the VC's "quit" they lock up so it's like your CDL is on all the time. That may be why your PO took it out.

Doing what was shown in your video would absolutely smoke a VC doing what you were doing unless you locked the CDL.

Obviously, someone has been inside the transfer case. You don't need to remove it and blow it completely apart to remove the VC. It can be done from underneath. I understand there is a spool that you're supposed to place in there after removing the VC, but maybe I'm thinking if you change it to part-time and remove the VC. Someone else will have to chime in on that.

Your first step is to figure out how to lock the CDL.

I would check the wiring on the switch. Maybe it's not wired correctly. Maybe there's a loose wire. Maybe the switch is broken.

If I recall correctly, the actuator for the CDL and the switch for the CDL light are two separate circuits. Maybe the switch is wired to the wrong side? I'm fishing here.

Don't worry if your F&R diff's are locking. We can work on that later.

 

[ppc]

When it's a 3X factory truck, the switch will ONLY allow lockup in this order:
CDL
Rear differential
Front differential

If the CDL doesn't lock, the rear won't lock.
If the rear isn't locked, the front won't lock.

Clarification but important:
If the CDL doesn't lock and illuminate the dash light, neither front or rear will lock.
There is no requirement for the rear to lock first before the front, when the dash switch is turned to lock both, the front often locks quicker.