Intermittent Delayed Crank - 2015 GXR 120K miles - Fuel Injectors?

[GXR]

Hey guys. I'm new to the group and would really appreciate some feed back on an issue I am having. Previously owned an '04 and traded it in for a mom-mobile. Worst mistake I ever made... Traded the mom-mobile in for the 2015 below. See below for explanation of issue. Sorry for the long 1st post.

I recently purchased a 2015 LC in Houston and have been having issues with delayed crank since Day 2. It was sold "As Is", so there is no recourse with the dealer, believe me I've tried...

A little history: This was the 2015 "GXR" LC for sale in Houston with 120K miles. It was a one owner; the guy drove from Houston to Austin several times per week, so I was not concerned about the mileage. I pulled the service history from Fred Haas Toyota in Spring, TX where the previous owner bought and serviced it at. The service was impeccable with the exception of one thing. At 55K miles, the fuel injectors were replaced. There was an issue with delayed crank and he was told it was the injectors - bad gas was the cause, or so he was told... At 120K miles, it has the same delayed crank issue. My local Toyota dealer in Baton Rouge is saying it's the injectors again. However, they said only one side is bad, not holding pressure and bleeding down into the cylinder.

2nd Opinion: I took it to another shop to confirm Toyota's diagnosis. The mechanic could not get it to "delay crank". He put the gauges on it overnight and told me it held pressure overnight 12-14 lbs. I was told to come back when it's more consistent.

Local Land Cruier Group opinon: A friend of mine took the LC to their meeting and discussed the issue with the group. Fuel pump, check valve on fuel line, relay, etc. A lot of ideas, but nothing certain.

My buddy changed the batteries in the 2 keys, checked all the fuses, cleaned the MAF and throttle body and put some fuel injector cleaner in the tank. We plan to check the starter soon to see if it has the old or new one. Doubt that's the issue, but figured we would replace it just in case if it's the older one.

The delayed crank is intermittent, but it happens more times than not. After a few seconds of it struggling to turn over, if I give it gas, it will turn over. I have tried both keys. I try turning the key to acc, on, and then starting (priming the pump) and it still happens. It occurs most consistently in the mornings and then after it's been driven and shut down for an hour or so. After the delayed crank, if if I shut it down and crank it up again, it cranks right up.

Appreciate any feedback.

Thanks!

 

[GXR]

AND, if anybody knows what the GXR badge is for, I would really like to know that too. I spoke with the previous owner (CEO in his 60's) today and he did not put the badge on it. He was not aware it was even on there until the Service Tech at the Toyota dealership in Austin asked him about it. I've seen some overseas GXR models, but nothing here in the States. Also, saw where it could be some aftermarket armoring. He confirmed it was not that. It's got the 5.7L V8.

 

[Phalen302]

Check for lose battery terminals in addition to the battery condition. GXR sticker is most like was implanted on it, lots of them on eBay.

 

[GXR]

Check for lose battery terminals in addition to the battery condition.

Battery was replaced in January of this year. We checked and cleaned the battery terminals and posts.

GXR sticker is most like was implanted on it,

By a random person? I thought maybe the previous owner had done it, but I talked with him and he said he didn't. He doesn't seem like the type.

 

[Phalen302]

Battery was replaced in January of this year. We checked and cleaned the battery terminals and posts.



By a random person? I thought maybe the previous owner had done it, but I talked with him and he said he didn't. He doesn't seem like the type.

That’s a good mystery to solve. I’ve a legit GXR in Mongolia with 4.6 engine.

 

[bloc]

Fuel injectors can be ruled out by sending them to RC Engineering for cleaning/balancing.

Also when you say delayed crank.. I take "crank" as the starter turning the motor over. So the starter is doing its job just fine but the engine actually starting is delayed?

These rigs are known for starter failures where you'll hear a click but no starter activity.. that's why I ask.

 

[GXR]

Fuel injectors can be ruled out by sending them to RC Engineering for cleaning/balancing.

Thanks! I will look into this to see what cost and turnaround time is.

Also when you say delayed crank.. I take "crank" as the starter turning the motor over. So the starter is doing its job just fine but the engine actually starting is delayed?

These rigs are known for starter failures where you'll hear a click but no starter activity.. that's why I ask.

Yes, it "cranks", but the engine does not start. It has never failed to start. It just takes several seconds. But if I pump the gas several times, it starts immediately.

Regarding the starterFrom what I was told and have seen, the older starter seems to fail at ~120K miles or so. So while that may not be the issue here, I just assum change it while we are looking into it if it is indeed the older starter.

 

[bloc]

Thanks! I will look into this to see what cost and turnaround time is.




Yes, it "cranks", but the engine does not start. It has never failed to start. It just takes several seconds. But if I pump the gas several times, it starts immediately.

Regarding the starterFrom what I was told and have seen, the older starter seems to fail at ~120K miles or so. So while that may not be the issue here, I just assum change it while we are looking into it if it is indeed the older starter.

RC was about $20 per injector when I used them and got the injectors back out the day after receipt. This was a couple years ago though.

On the starter.. it’s a pretty big job and it is difficult but not impossible to bypass the solenoid and get it started. But in a completely different section of the engine so the work won’t really overlap, other than maybe the downtime.

 

[GXR]

Update...

I had another local mechanic try to troubleshoot the extended crank. He notified me that is was giving a P1604 code - Startability Malfunction.. Uh, yep..

Anyways, he pointed me to a TSB regarding alcohol density calculation...

http://media.fixed-ops.com/Toy_ServiceBulletins/sb0058t13.pdf

This was an issue with Sequoia and Tundra with the 3UR-FBE engine. This could not be the issue with the LC, right? Obviously different engine, but could their still be some programming in the ECM regarding Alcohol density calculations? Reprogam or reset the ECM?

Also, if I do replace the injectors as recommended by Toyota, should I go with OEM injectors or is there some less expensive reputable option out there? I saw in the below thread that the OP purchased aftermarket injectors from Standard Auto for $35 each. That's a huge differecne from Toyota's $167.99 injector..

When to Clean or Replace fuel injectors

Please post your experiences and thoughts on the subject. I’ve been considering cleaning or even replacing all 8 fuel injectors, is this wasting time and money. I understand keeping fuel injector clean by adding a can of additive to the gas tank, now & then, is a good practice. This keeps them...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[OEMGUY0720]

Try to check your fuel injector’s vibration insulator.. could be as simple as perfect seal. In this case it’s not.

@2001LC tagging you here, this is how it looked like.

 

[DWSD]

I would assume since the engine is extremely similar to the Tundra that the issues overlap in the programming of the PCM / ECM.
Assuming it runs well except when it won't start... I wouldn't go buying new injectors.
This Tundra owner seems to have had very similar symptoms:

2012 Tundra, Fuel Issues, E85, Fuel Pressure, Fuel...

Hello Everyone; This is my nightmare 'dairy' for what I'm going through thus far with my truck. 2012 FlexFuel SR5, 5.7, 14k miles. Bought new. MBRP exhaust, 20" wheels are the only upgrades. I hope someone finds this useful. 2/24/14 My truck started to experience cold starting issues...

www.tundratalk.net

If you google, which I'm sure you did the code and Tundra there is lots of reading. I spent 5 minutes.
Would be nice to see the resolution when you get it licked.

Good luck,

Doug

 

[TeCKis300]

Question, did the injector replacement at 55k fix the issue for a duration?

I find it hard to believe that the same issue is manifesting with two completely different sets of injectors. Injectors tend to be highly durable and if there's a failure, it's the odd one off.

The fact that you say it happens upon hot start (hr or so) or cold start (morning), and that your mechanic put gauges on it showing pressure holding steady suggests to me that it is not the fuel system losing pressure.

The TSB is a fueling calibration issue specific to how the ECU measures alcohol in ethanol fuels and changes fuel trims. Do you have an OBD-II tool to read the fuel trims at idle? That would be telling.

Another way to troubleshoot this is to reset the ECU by pulling the battery for a duration (few minutes). Does it change the symptoms immediately or does it persist?

 

[GXR]

I would assume since the engine is extremely similar to the Tundra that the issues overlap in the programming of the PCM / ECM.
Assuming it runs well except when it won't start... I wouldn't go buying new injectors.

I asked my Toyota service advisor about this yesterday. I plan to take if by today and have them scan it to see. New injectors are ~ $2K, so I am definitely trying everything I can before pulling the trigger on that repair...

 

[GXR]

Question, did the injector replacement at 55k fix the issue for a duration?

That's a good question. I assumed so, since I did not see any other mentions of the issue in the Toyota service history. I went to the Toyota dealer that he bought and serviced it at and got a 32 page printout of the service history. A service advisor and myself went over all of the history. The fuel injector replacement at 55K was the only "red flag". But since the LC now had 120K miles and there was no other mention of it, I assumed all was resolved. I can reach out to the previous owner. I can't imagine he drove it for 2 more years and 65K more miles if the injector replacement didn't fix it. I suspect he started having the same issue again at 120K miles and he traded the damn thing in.

I find it hard to believe that the same issue is manifesting with two completely different sets of injectors. Injectors tend to be highly durable and if there's a failure, it's the odd one off.

I agree. Very rarely do you see injectors fail, much less twice in 120K miles. Until I can find another cause for the delayed crank, I keep going back to the injectors. The tech did tell me that it is only one bank/side which could possibly mean only one or a few injectors.

The fact that you say it happens upon hot start (hr or so) or cold start (morning), and that your mechanic put gauges on it showing pressure holding steady suggests to me that it is not the fuel system losing pressure.

The cold start in the morning is about 50/50. We have a very short commute to work, so I don't think the engine gets "hot". The only time I get a consistent good start is after shutting the down and immediately (or within 10-15 minutes) starting it back up. If it sits for 30-45 minutes or more, it has the delayed crank more times than not. I need to find the writeup someone had explaining how/why a leaking injector would cause this. It was pretty spot on unfortunately.

The TSB is a fueling calibration issue specific to how the ECU measures alcohol in ethanol fuels and changes fuel trims. Do you have an OBD-II tool to read the fuel trims at idle? That would be telling.

I do not have an OBD-II tool. I plan to take it to the dealer to let them scan it.

Another way to troubleshoot this is to reset the ECU by pulling the battery for a duration (few minutes). Does it change the symptoms immediately or does it persist?

When we cleaned the battery terminals and posts, I got one good start after that, but it went back to the intermittent delayed crank the next day.

 

[GXR]

Well, the reflash does not work for the LC motor regarding the TSB for alcohol density calculation issue. AND Toyota National did not offer any assistance. Shocker, right? The issue is at least documented though. If these new injectors fail, I am going to raise some hell...

I am giving the dealership the green light to replace all 8 injectors. . I was able to at least get a little discount from the dealership. It this does not resolve the extended crank issue, I am going to lose my $#@!.

 

[TeCKis300]

When we cleaned the battery terminals and posts, I got one good start after that, but it went back to the intermittent delayed crank the next day.

Am I understanding in that you pulled the battery terminals to clean, therefore resetting the ECU?

If it immediately still had the issue after a crank, it would have nothing to do with the ECU alcohol density calibration. Fuel trims need several cycles to set. It's not likely that the 200-series uses the same calibration as the Tundra Sequoia anyhow, even if they have the same motor.

Good luck with the new injectors.

 

[Phalen302]

Take to the Lexus dealer for diagnosis, they can help figure this out.

 

[fasteddie2015]

I'm at 114K on my '15 and was told that I need to change spark plugs at 120K mi, which is where you're at. Are you sure its getting spark when its cranking?

 

[GXR]

Take to the Lexus dealer for diagnosis, they can help figure this out.

I took it to 2 other local independent mechanic shops. I didn't think about the Lexus dealer; that would have been a good idea. They are right next door to each other too. It's too late now though. I green lighted the injector replacement on Friday. I will keep that in mind if any future issues arise. Thanks!

 

[GXR]

I'm at 114K on my '15 and was told that I need to change spark plugs at 120K mi, which is where you're at. Are you sure its getting spark when its cranking?

I hope it's not that simple... Kind of like the battery... I checked that though. I have a great relationship with my Service advisor there. I'm confident that the injectors are bad, at least 4 of them anyways. We think only 4 of them were changed at the 55K replacement rather than all 8. It can't be proven, but we suspect thats what happened. Now the 4 that were not changed have crapped out.

The spark plugs may need to be replaced too, but I will take care of that myself. Appreciate the heads up.