Icon Stage 1 Suspension Questions (1 Viewer)

[smritte]

Let me try this a different way.
Yes you have a geometry issue as well as a travel issue. It doesn't matter who makes the shocks. When I built the suspension on my TJ, I copied a friends configuration and pulled a Bilstien apart from over extending. The problem was the "experts" told me that the shock was strong enough to limit the travel. They were soooo wrong. I installed limit straps to keep this from happening. The problem here was, no one could see what mine was doing or how I was doing it from a forum.

If your axle swing puts enough angle on the shock mount, obviously something is going to give.
This was a lesson I learned about 20 years ago. Since then, I now cycle my suspension and double check my angles.

Spending my whole life as a tech taught me, you cant get all the answers over the phone or in this case the internet. You can get ideas/opinions or peoples experience. That's it. If you don't get the correct answer, its not the fault of the tech guy or the forum. If no one else has this issue, you need to diagnose it yourself which could mean learning more.

Your bending things, that's geometry. Have you actually cycled your suspension, measured how far it can go without a shock and looked at the what the shock angle will be when you did this? Is the top of the shock hitting the body? That will be obvious by the scraping. Are your bushings allowing more twist? Which way is the stud bent? Did you install the upper bushings correctly so the thread is not contacting the mount. Is the shock mount slightly bent, allowing the top to be closer to the body?

These are things I think of when I read this. If I actually saw and diagnosed this, I would see things I didn't think to write here.

 

[smritte]

Forgot to add, your sure the issue isn't the shock being stuffed up hard enough to contact the body, bending it?

 

[smritte]

Just reread your post. Did you (someone) swap the upper mounts side to side?
They are side specific. I seem to remember a clearance issue on mine when I did this. It put a side strain on the shaft if im not mistaken.

 

[ericbirk]

Let me try this a different way.
Yes you have a geometry issue as well as a travel issue. It doesn't matter who makes the shocks. When I built the suspension on my TJ, I copied a friends configuration and pulled a Bilstien apart from over extending. The problem was the "experts" told me that the shock was strong enough to limit the travel. They were soooo wrong. I installed limit straps to keep this from happening. The problem here was, no one could see what mine was doing or how I was doing it from a forum.

If your axle swing puts enough angle on the shock mount, obviously something is going to give.
This was a lesson I learned about 20 years ago. Since then, I now cycle my suspension and double check my angles.

Spending my whole life as a tech taught me, you cant get all the answers over the phone or in this case the internet. You can get ideas/opinions or peoples experience. That's it. If you don't get the correct answer, its not the fault of the tech guy or the forum. If no one else has this issue, you need to diagnose it yourself which could mean learning more.

Your bending things, that's geometry. Have you actually cycled your suspension, measured how far it can go without a shock and looked at the what the shock angle will be when you did this? Is the top of the shock hitting the body? That will be obvious by the scraping. Are your bushings allowing more twist? Which way is the stud bent? Did you install the upper bushings correctly so the thread is not contacting the mount. Is the shock mount slightly bent, allowing the top to be closer to the body?

These are things I think of when I read this. If I actually saw and diagnosed this, I would see things I didn't think to write here.

Thank you for the reply. I agree with everything you are saying. Yes you can't get direct answers on the forum. It's also difficult to explain mechanicsl issues, and diagnose them virtually. I have to do that daily at work as well. What you can do is have a constructive conversation. When the responses don't make sense, I respond with reasons as to why I don't feel that they make sense. I feel like we keep going in circles. One minute the shocks are too long, the next they are too short. Then its the wrong springs, and around we go.

Icon said it was the springs, this makes zero sense, when I asked for clarification on how that could be the issue based on my findings, they went silent. Ever felt like you are just being strung along because they can't simply say that they don't have an answer? That's how this felt. If you don't know, just say that. I don't expect them to understand the 80 series chassis 100%. I would rather someone say they don't know than fill a reply wuth things that do not make sense just to push me off. Again, speaking of Icon here.

I understand that a shock cannot be the hard limiting factor. Which from what I can see, it isnt.

The pin is bending to the inside, exactly what you would expect with the bushing side loaded like it is at droop.

Everything has been cycled dozens of times, nothing is hitting anything it shouldn't. Which is also why this is frustrating.

Most of the answers to your questions are stated previously in this thread. When I was looking for shocks I cycled both in the garage and outside on obstacles, with and without springs, to ensure my measurements were accurate under real world conditions. I even did the fresh set of eyes and have had a few friends look. Some are Cruiser guys, others are Master Tech's.

The shocks cannot compress fully, bumps hit first. The shocks cannot extend fully, bushings bind first. Everything is measured and centered at ride height. I can't see this as a travel problem. All I can figure at this point is that the shock was never intended to cycle fully, doing so with the geo of the factory arms stresses the pin too much. At this point I am guessing they are expecting significantly lowered bumpstops which will cause less axle rotation and less stress on that pin. If that's the case, then so be it.

The problem now is diagnosing is likely done by monitoring for pin deflection. Which with these shocks means failure, and more money and time to ship them back to the US. I may have to put the Billy's back on the rear as the pin just bent. It didn't completely fail.

 

[ericbirk]

Just reread your post. Did you (someone) swap the upper mounts side to side?
They are side specific. I seem to remember a clearance issue on mine when I did this. It put a side strain on the shaft if im not mistaken.

Honestly, the first failure I thought I did but had already removed everything so I couldn't confirm. The second failure, with the Icon springs installed, I know 100% for sure that the upper mounts were on the correct side.

I tested it with them reversed, and you are correct. It puts a boat load of stress on that pin.

 

[smritte]

Ever felt like you are just being strung along because they can't simply say that they don't have an answer?

Yes.
This is why I spend so much time learning how things work. When I finally figure it out, it normally turns out to be something stupid, like the mounts are in backwards. Something no one thinks about because certain assumptions are made.

 

[ericbirk]

Yes.
This is why I spend so much time learning how things work. When I finally figure it out, it normally turns out to be something stupid, like the mounts are in backwards. Something no one thinks about because certain assumptions are made.

Haha true that. I try to stick to the KISS principal but sometimes do get lost in the maze.

I am heading out for a day trip wheeling next weekend. I'm going to try and get it into the garage this week and mess around. See if anything pops out at me. Will pull the shocks off and measure the deflection angle from top to bottom mounts during full droop/compression. Only thing I haven't measured yet.

 

[Feldrian]

At full droop both front and rear my Icons are longer than the droop of the suspension. Just retested this tonight when I was working on the rear. I'm running adjustable 2.5" Icons with RR, so obviously not the same shock you are but as a baseline the shocks are about 1" longer than the drooped suspension. I'm running the shorter Icon's (0-3") with a 4" lift, so I was actually a little concerned they'd be short. Apparently not the case.

 

[ericbirk]

At full droop both front and rear my Icons are longer than the droop of the suspension. Just retested this tonight when I was working on the rear. I'm running adjustable 2.5" Icons with RR, so obviously not the same shock you are but as a baseline the shocks are about 1" longer than the drooped suspension. I'm running the shorter Icon's (0-3") with a 4" lift, so I was actually a little concerned they'd be short. Apparently not the case.

Running both swaybars?

 

[Feldrian]

Yup - Stock sway bars both ends with delta drop brackets on the front and Landtank longer control rods on the rear (both sized for 4" lift). Running a stock panhard up front and a 3" Delta panhard lift bracket in the back.

 

[ericbirk]

Yup - Stock sway bars both ends with delta drop brackets on the front and Landtank longer control rods on the rear (both sized for 4" lift). Running a stock panhard up front and a 3" Delta panhard lift bracket in the back.

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Virtually the same setup in the back that I am running. I just wish I had your shocks too hah