treerootCO
Where are my keys?!
- Thread starter
- #281
My guts came from a '76 case spaceghost had.
I might have killed my Orion
- Thread starter treerootCO
- Start date
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i just got off the phone with the machine shop and they said the washers are too hard and he can't machine the step into them. what the freakin hell. 
what am i supposed to do now.
what am i supposed to do now.
1Fine40
Rust Buster
Hey Steve,
This looks like you are definitely onto something worth copying!! Thanks for the research. Can you tell us how far into the thrust washer from the center you had the relief cut? I'm gonna do the same and try it on mine as I assemble it....
Cheers!
This looks like you are definitely onto something worth copying!! Thanks for the research. Can you tell us how far into the thrust washer from the center you had the relief cut? I'm gonna do the same and try it on mine as I assemble it....
Cheers!
found a shop to machine mine. i guess the other one was just lazy. anyway, will finish the install tonight.
missipboy said:
or did not have any ceramic cutting tools...
1fine40-
I can get the dim that I had them cut to and post that up later tonight when I get back to the shop.
John-
As far as the shift collar goes, the thinner collars were the new units from Toyota, and the thicker ones came from three and four speed cases that I tore down...
If you cut into the collar you are going to remove the ramps that help line up the collar with the drive dogs on the gear...I do not think that I would go down that road...but that is just me.
yes, i should not rush to judge. just tired of being down and taking it out on others.
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Poser, I'm not sure if this should go into a separate thread or stay with this discussion, but there have been dozens of times in the last 15 years of rebuilding transfer cases that I have wished for a stepped washer to cut down the fore and aft motion of the STOCK output gears. IMO,The utility of an item like this goes way beyond just the Orion, and I think you should investigate getting a LOT of these made. I've prolly got a box of 50 or 60 of these washers to start with, if you need them.
bjowett
Supporting Vendor
This is one of the best threads on here... so much good info.
I would like to ask if folks think the oil clearances on the high/low speed gear brass bushings could also be a contributor? Obviously, if this clearance is a large, a little wobble in the spin of the gear could develope. This would cause alignment issues that could also easily kick the case to nuetral. Cutting the step into the thrust washer removes not only the aforementioned fore/aft movement of the gears, but also helps to control this wobble, should it exist. If this clearance should prove to need a little tightening, spraying the main shift with a few thous. of moly coat would be beneficial. Come to think of it, spraying the stepped thrust washers with a dry friction reducing coating could not hurt, either.... what say ye?
I would like to ask if folks think the oil clearances on the high/low speed gear brass bushings could also be a contributor? Obviously, if this clearance is a large, a little wobble in the spin of the gear could develope. This would cause alignment issues that could also easily kick the case to nuetral. Cutting the step into the thrust washer removes not only the aforementioned fore/aft movement of the gears, but also helps to control this wobble, should it exist. If this clearance should prove to need a little tightening, spraying the main shift with a few thous. of moly coat would be beneficial. Come to think of it, spraying the stepped thrust washers with a dry friction reducing coating could not hurt, either.... what say ye?
Brian-
I could see the validity of this when the new gears are used with a worn shaft, as I have seen new bushings pressed into old gears and there is still a little wobble in them on the shaft…the shaft gets replaced then, without question.
I have not put an Orion together with marginal parts. All of the gears on the main shafts have fit very nice and are not snug, and have no wobble. Limiting the ability of the gear to walk on the shaft when loaded during deceleration with the use of the stepped thrust washer, in theory, would appear to be a viable option. I have not been able to test this yet, but it is next on the list. The Orion in the Yellow truck is coming out next and is going to be torn down and have the stepped washers installed in it, as it is the only case that I have built that has popped out of high range. It does not have any issues in low.
The thing that keeps me thinking about this is the fact that I have three other units that I built and did not use these washers in them, and they do not come out of gear. Mark Whatley, and others have also built these, and are not experiencing any issues. Which also makes me wonder about the 2-degree bevel issue of the drive dogs on the high and low speed gears. Why are some cases falling out of gear regularly, while others are not?
The amount of variables involved with this whole issue is difficult to get your head around when you sit and stare at the case, and look at all the different surfaces that are dependent on each other to function properly. Having a couple areas off by a few thousands of an inch in some cases and not others, could lead to issues that some have and others are not.
The shift shaft retaining tab relief cut in the case for starters. If that is cut deeper on John’s(peesalot) case, that would explain why he was having issues getting the collar lined up in the neutral location, and not to rub on the dog teeth of the low speed gear, or high speed gear. What is the number on your case John?
We should make a list of who has what case number, and the issues that you are having with it….Treeroot???
Mike Davidson has #1
I could see the validity of this when the new gears are used with a worn shaft, as I have seen new bushings pressed into old gears and there is still a little wobble in them on the shaft…the shaft gets replaced then, without question.
I have not put an Orion together with marginal parts. All of the gears on the main shafts have fit very nice and are not snug, and have no wobble. Limiting the ability of the gear to walk on the shaft when loaded during deceleration with the use of the stepped thrust washer, in theory, would appear to be a viable option. I have not been able to test this yet, but it is next on the list. The Orion in the Yellow truck is coming out next and is going to be torn down and have the stepped washers installed in it, as it is the only case that I have built that has popped out of high range. It does not have any issues in low.
The thing that keeps me thinking about this is the fact that I have three other units that I built and did not use these washers in them, and they do not come out of gear. Mark Whatley, and others have also built these, and are not experiencing any issues. Which also makes me wonder about the 2-degree bevel issue of the drive dogs on the high and low speed gears. Why are some cases falling out of gear regularly, while others are not?
The amount of variables involved with this whole issue is difficult to get your head around when you sit and stare at the case, and look at all the different surfaces that are dependent on each other to function properly. Having a couple areas off by a few thousands of an inch in some cases and not others, could lead to issues that some have and others are not.
The shift shaft retaining tab relief cut in the case for starters. If that is cut deeper on John’s(peesalot) case, that would explain why he was having issues getting the collar lined up in the neutral location, and not to rub on the dog teeth of the low speed gear, or high speed gear. What is the number on your case John?
We should make a list of who has what case number, and the issues that you are having with it….Treeroot???
Mike Davidson has #1
1Fine40
Rust Buster
WooHoo, mine's #2. (And not yet assembled...but planning to do so in the very near future...)
1Fine40 aka Rich
Cheers!
1Fine40 aka Rich
Cheers!
mines #245 (i think) and in the truck, but haven't run it yet. will do so this weekend.
edit: mine is #255
edit: mine is #255
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treerootCO
Where are my keys?!
- Thread starter
- #292
run it down a hill, enough of one you can coast down, with the T-case in low. Let the engine hold you back. You'll know if you have the neutral problem
Hey Steve....here is another interesting thing to think about. The runner/pickup guys had more neutral problems if their drivelines were either mounted slightly higher or held in place by something more solid than stock. Does the yellow one have a skid plate/t-case support that is different than the others? This isn't the cause of the problem but can certainly add to it. This was taken from the same article (pickups and runners),
"Now about your gear set popping out, Marlin and I both agree that after installing the bud built, there are two reasons for those old gears popping out.
1) The BudBuilt crossmember raises the drivetrain up about .5 - 1 inch. This puts more torque-stress on the rear output shaft because of the increased driveline angle. And since the output shaft holds the low speed gear, when it moves around, it effects the shift hub and walks it off of the gear.
2) In addition to the increased backflow of torque, also remember that the BudBuilt uses two crossmember mounts that hold the drivetrain more solid. This means that as you accelerate or coast, instead of the change of momentum being absorbed with some drivetrain flex/wrap, now more of the energy is conserved which puts more energy through the drivetrain which walks that hub off of the input gear....
Regards,
BigMike"
I am not sure just how much the rear output can actually move under torque but it is something we can look at.
Hey Steve....here is another interesting thing to think about. The runner/pickup guys had more neutral problems if their drivelines were either mounted slightly higher or held in place by something more solid than stock. Does the yellow one have a skid plate/t-case support that is different than the others? This isn't the cause of the problem but can certainly add to it. This was taken from the same article (pickups and runners),
"Now about your gear set popping out, Marlin and I both agree that after installing the bud built, there are two reasons for those old gears popping out.
1) The BudBuilt crossmember raises the drivetrain up about .5 - 1 inch. This puts more torque-stress on the rear output shaft because of the increased driveline angle. And since the output shaft holds the low speed gear, when it moves around, it effects the shift hub and walks it off of the gear.
2) In addition to the increased backflow of torque, also remember that the BudBuilt uses two crossmember mounts that hold the drivetrain more solid. This means that as you accelerate or coast, instead of the change of momentum being absorbed with some drivetrain flex/wrap, now more of the energy is conserved which puts more energy through the drivetrain which walks that hub off of the input gear....
Regards,
BigMike"
I am not sure just how much the rear output can actually move under torque but it is something we can look at.
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Yellow truck is using the AA style mount on the rear of the Orion, along with the standard Toyota 2F mounts on the engine and flywheel housing. This is the only case that has popped out of gear, high range only.
The Orange truck with the Toybox is using the AA support also.
There is a 74-40 that is not using a AA mount, F engine H41 tranny.
There is a 76-40 that is using the AA mount, V8, H41 tranny.
These three have not had any issues with them... but it is my intention to remove them and install the stepped washers, and any other 'updates' that may come down the line from all of this.
Yellow truck's(Tim) Orion is number 150....
The Orange truck with the Toybox is using the AA support also.
There is a 74-40 that is not using a AA mount, F engine H41 tranny.
There is a 76-40 that is using the AA mount, V8, H41 tranny.
These three have not had any issues with them... but it is my intention to remove them and install the stepped washers, and any other 'updates' that may come down the line from all of this.
Yellow truck's(Tim) Orion is number 150....
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bjowett
Supporting Vendor
I have #241 and it's going in an FZJ80.
Ok - I got my Cruiser up and running. So far my Orion pops out of 2 High into neutral when going down hill coasting about 1 out of 3 times. I have not had an issue yet of it popping out of 4 low - I had it in 4 low and let it crawl down a pile of granite boulders at idle and it did not pop into neutral. Any one else have this happening in 2 high? As far as I can see it has been happening in Low only??
Thoughts?
Ok after reading more posts I guess I will be calling AA in the morning for a kit to fix this. Treeroot - is yours now fixed?
Thoughts?
Ok after reading more posts I guess I will be calling AA in the morning for a kit to fix this. Treeroot - is yours now fixed?
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treerootCO
Where are my keys?!
- Thread starter
- #298
fixed and I am loving it!! I really need to get down there and see your rig. Sorry I haven't been able to get down there yet.
Your high speed gear will need to be machined.
Your high speed gear will need to be machined.
Thats the same problem I had last year
When I took mine apart to install the "fix it kit" from AA I noticed my Hi low shift fork was worn so AA sent me a replacement, no charge.
After I reasmbled I noticed the slider was still hard against the high speed gear in high range even with the new rail so rather than taking it all apart to get the gear machined I put a .020 in shim under the bolt the holds the shift rail to pull it back a hair
No problems since works great
When I took mine apart to install the "fix it kit" from AA I noticed my Hi low shift fork was worn so AA sent me a replacement, no charge.
After I reasmbled I noticed the slider was still hard against the high speed gear in high range even with the new rail so rather than taking it all apart to get the gear machined I put a .020 in shim under the bolt the holds the shift rail to pull it back a hair
No problems since works great
