I could really use some help diagnosing this starter issue - captured on video! (1 Viewer)

[MtnMantologist]

Hi gang - I just posted this over on r/LandCruisers but would like to post it here for the real OG Land Cruiser experts.

About a month ago my 1999 with 230k miles almost left me stranded at a trailhead a couple hours from home. When I turned the key it cranked but never fired up (see first video below). After a couple attempts it started and I could drive off. I took it to AutoZone and the battery and charging system both passed their diagnostic tool but I got a "Bad Starting System" result (see picture).

Since then it's mostly been fine - maybe a little slower to start sometimes but nothing egregious. Today I finally caught it acting up the same way. This first video shows the engine cranking but not starting (at least that's what I think of when I hear "cranking", please correct me if I'm wrong)

and this second video is a little more difficult to read. I took it after the first one when I'd taken the key out of the ignition and everything should be dead but you can still hear some electrical whirring. The first loud *pop* is from the speakers and is a weird issue where if I put the key in to turn on the electronics without starting the car I'll get that pop a few seconds after taking the key out - it doesn't do it if I've stopped the car after it's been running. The second *click* is whatever electrical noise cutting out. After that I tried to start it up again and it worked.


The electrical whirring may be completely unrelated - I don't recall hearing it when this happened at the trailhead last month. But otherwise it was the same story - cranking but not firing, try a couple times before it fires up on the third or fourth attempt.

 

[Mark W]

Not gonna make any guesses about why the rig did not start. But... you can move on from wondering about battery, charging system or starter. The symptoms have nothing to do with that at all. Regardless of any electronic issues that may be involved, at the most basic end of it all this is lack of proper spark or correct fuel delivery.

Does it blow black smoke when it finally catches and starts? Any other indication of abnormal running right after startup when this balkiness happens?

Mark...

 

[Malleus]

It might be helpful to share how long you've had the truck, what you've done recently to maintain or repair anything on the truck, and how it's been running for the last couple of months.

I can't hear anything on those videos except outside noise, and the door chime, so I can't say they helped me very much. I'm also not sure how the starting system is to be excluded from the root cause analysis, when you have a fault for both the starting current and starting voltage on the display you shared, so maybe don't discount those just yet.

 

[MtnMantologist]

Not gonna make any guesses about why the rig did not start. But... you can move on from wondering about battery, charging system or starter. The symptoms have nothing to do with that at all. Regardless of any electronic issues that may be involved, at the most basic end of it all this is lack of proper spark or correct fuel delivery.

Does it blow black smoke when it finally catches and starts? Any other indication of abnormal running right after startup when this balkiness happens?

Mark...

Thank you Mark. Can I ask how you ruled how starter?

I haven't seen any black smoke when it starts but I also haven't made a point of looking. Sometimes I feel like the acceleration is a tiny bit sluggish these days but it's so imperceptible that it may be entirely in my head and I haven't noticed a correlation with the starter issue. I only mention it because it sounds like it might tie into fuel delivery.

 

[MtnMantologist]

It might be helpful to share how long you've had the truck, what you've done recently to maintain or repair anything on the truck, and how it's been running for the last couple of months.

I can't hear anything on those videos except outside noise, and the door chime, so I can't say they helped me very much. I'm also not sure how the starting system is to be excluded from the root cause analysis, when you have a fault for both the starting current and starting voltage on the display you shared, so maybe don't discount those just yet.

Thanks Malleus.

I've owned the truck since 2017 and other than the starter issue it's been running fine. I mentioned to Mark that I sometimes feel like the acceleration could be a tiny bit sluggish but if so it's really, really subtle and it may be entirely a figment of my imagination.

Some of the larger things I've had done would be:

• June 2020: new timing belt, timing belt tensioner bearing, timing belt idler bearing, water pump, camshaft seal, crankshaft seal, thermostat & gasket, coolant (radiator flush), drive belt, tensioner adjuster, and thermostat housing.
• March 2022: replaced all eight ignition coils and spark plugs, replaced valve cover gasket
• January 2023: new battery
• December 2023: accelerator pedal position sensor failed requiring a new Toyota OEM throttle body w/ gasket since sensor is built into throttle body. Instrument lights were not working, tech found a bad ground and corrected. Radiator was leaking, slow leak but opted to replace radiator assembly.
• March 2024: new heater hose T-connectors

As for the video - sorry about the sound quality. I just took this with my iPhone sitting inside the car with the windows rolled up. The engine sounds are a lower frequency than the door chimes but with headphones, or the volume turned up, I can hear the engine trying to start up and the electrical system doing something

 

[Mark W]

Thank you Mark. Can I ask how you ruled how starter?

I haven't seen any black smoke when it starts but I also haven't made a point of looking. Sometimes I feel like the acceleration is a tiny bit sluggish these days but it's so imperceptible that it may be entirely in my head and I haven't noticed a correlation with the starter issue. I only mention it because it sounds like it might tie into fuel delivery.

I rule out the starter because you stated that it "cranks" (starter spinning the engine), and in the video I can hear it spinning like a banshee, no slowing and ready to keep at it easily. So your battery and you starter are doing exactly what they are supposed to do and doing it well. The only input your charging systems has in this situation is recharging the battery after the startup, and since the starter is kicking ass, then the battery is strong so the charging system is doing it's job too.

If I understand what you have said, even when it fails to start it cranks just like it does in the video. Yes?

I asked about the black smoke, because i have seen a bad temp sensor for the ECU result in the brain being told that the temp is -40 and it dumps such a rich mixture into the cylinders that the engine can just barely start. if it is not blowing black smoke on startup and stumbling for just a moment, then I would not look pay any particularly strong attention to that possibility.

Mark...

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Weren't you already replacing the starter from your other thread?

 

[Mark W]

FWIW, I put about as much faith in any testing done at Auto Zone as I do in tossing bones or reading tea leaves. And less in anything bearing a Duralast branding.

Mark...

 

[Malleus]

That's helpful. It seems like there has been nothing recent to directly attribute to the root cause analysis. I'd start with the obvious: check the battery connections, and make certain they are clean and tight. Make sure your battery is fully charged. Make sure your alternator is charging the battery.

You'll need a multimeter to do the last two; if you don't have one, buy one. A $20 model is as good as a $800 model for this work; you can get them anywhere. If you think you want to do this work more often, either get a good one now, or budget for one in the future. IMHO, the difference in price doesn't directly relate to the quality of measurement (although it is related), but more to the longevity of the unit. A good used analog unit will do just as well as a new digital unit, unless you're trying to measure waveforms (like 02 sensor output), then you need a DSO/multimeter anyway.

Once you get the easy stuff out of the way, you can concentrate on the hard stuff, like what part is bad or tracing wiring circuits.

 

[Mark W]

That's helpful. It seems like there has been nothing recent to directly attribute to the root cause analysis. I'd start with the obvious: check the battery connections, and make certain they are clean and tight. Make sure your battery is fully charged. Make sure your alternator is charging the battery.

You'll need a multimeter to do the last two; if you don't have one, buy one. A $20 model is as good as a $800 model for this work; you can get them anywhere. If you think you want to do this work more often, either get a good one now, or budget for one in the future. IMHO, the difference in price doesn't directly relate to the quality of measurement (although it is related), but more to the longevity of the unit. A good used analog unit will do just as well as a new digital unit, unless you're trying to measure waveforms (like 02 sensor output), then you need a DSO/mutlimeter anyway.

Once you get the easy stuff out of the way, you can concentrate on the hard stuff, like what part is bad or tracing wiring circuits.

Nothing wrong with this advise. But in this case, unless the OP comes back and clarifies differently, we know that the battery and the starter are performing properly.

Mark...

 

[MtnMantologist]

Weren't you already replacing the starter from your other thread?

I took it by the shop for a quote on the starter and was told it's located beneath the intake and it's a $1,000-1,400 repair (somewhere in there, I don't have the estimate in front of me).

So the cost + people here and elsewhere saying it doesn't sound like a starter issue has me trying to track down something more concrete before I bring it anywhere

I rule out the starter because you stated that it "cranks" (starter spinning the engine), and in the video I can hear it spinning like a banshee, no slowing and ready to keep at it easily. So your battery and you starter are doing exactly what they are supposed to do and doing it well. The only input your charging systems has in this situation is recharging the battery after the startup, and since the starter is kicking ass, then the battery is strong so the charging system is doing it's job too.

If I understand what you have said, even when it fails to start it cranks just like it does in the video. Yes?

I asked about the black smoke, because i have seen a bad temp sensor for the ECU result in the brain being told that the temp is -40 and it dumps such a rich mixture into the cylinders that the engine can just barely start. if it is not blowing black smoke on startup and stumbling for just a moment, then I would not look pay any particularly strong attention to that possibility.

Mark...

Yes, even when it fails it cranks like that and more often it's slow to start (see video below) where it cranks more than it has in the past before firing up.



I haven't been able to catch it on video and it's difficult to explain but sometimes when it fires up it feels like it just caught something. Like it wasn't a strong "boom, it's started" but rather a weak barely started situation but then it runs fine as normal after it's up and running. It's subtle enough that it may not translate to video even if I got lucky (I have been filming my starts the last week trying to catch this footage).

That's helpful. It seems like there has been nothing recent to directly attribute to the root cause analysis. I'd start with the obvious: check the battery connections, and make certain they are clean and tight. Make sure your battery is fully charged. Make sure your alternator is charging the battery.

You'll need a multimeter to do the last two; if you don't have one, buy one. A $20 model is as good as a $800 model for this work; you can get them anywhere. If you think you want to do this work more often, either get a good one now, or budget for one in the future. IMHO, the difference in price doesn't directly relate to the quality of measurement (although it is related), but more to the longevity of the unit. A good used analog unit will do just as well as a new digital unit, unless you're trying to measure waveforms (like 02 sensor output), then you need a DSO/multimeter anyway.

Once you get the easy stuff out of the way, you can concentrate on the hard stuff, like what part is bad or tracing wiring circuits.

Thanks for this - I'll do some googling to see how I should check those things. I have a Klein Tools MM400 multimeter I got for troubleshooting something else plus some basic electrical work so I assume that'll work in this case too.

 

[Malleus]

It will. You'll need to make sure your battery electrolyte is full, if you have a battery with removable caps. If you don't, don't worry about it. If you do, use distilled water, not purified water or any of that other advertising crap they sell as water, to top up the cells to the bottom of the fill lines in the holes.

First, check that the connections are clean and tight. If the wiring connections do not appear clean, remove them (negative first, and place a rag between the clamps and battery posts) and brush them with an old toothbrush and some warm water with a teaspoon of baking soda in it. Rinse with clean water and dry with a paper towel. Then clean the terminals with a wire brush and wipe off the battery. Everything needs to be clean and dry.

Second, if they are clean, try to move them by hand, one at a time; if you can they are loose. Tighten them. If you took them off, put them back on and tighten them.

Connect the leads to the terminals like this (red lead to red hole, black lead to black hole):

Set the dial to VDC and, with the engine OFF, place the red lead on the POS terminal and the black lead on the NEG terminal. You should get about 12.4V; if you see less, your battery isn't fully charged.

Start the engine and do the same test. You should see about 14V give or take half a volt. If you see less, your alternator isn't charging the battery.

These two checks aren't the only checks to make; they won't, for instance, tell you how many cranking amps you have available or the state of charge. You'll need a dedicated battery tester for those. You don't need to worry about them, though, unless your simple tests fail. And even then, I'd charge the battery overnight on a charger and see where that gets you, if the battery is low.

 

[MtnMantologist]

It will. You'll need to make sure your battery electrolyte is full, if you have a battery with removable caps. If you don't, don't worry about it. If you do, use distilled water, not purified water or any of that other advertising crap they sell as water, to top up the cells to the bottom of the fill lines in the holes.

First, check that the connections are clean and tight. If the wiring connections do not appear clean, remove them (negative first, and place a rag between the clamps and battery posts) and brush them with an old toothbrush and some warm water with a teaspoon of baking soda in it. Rinse with clean water and dry with a paper towel. Then clean the terminals with a wire brush and wipe off the battery. Everything needs to be clean and dry.

Second, if they are clean, try to move them by hand, one at a time; if you can they are loose. Tighten them. If you took them off, put them back on and tighten them.

Connect the leads to the terminals like this (red lead to red hole, black lead to black hole):
View attachment 3795588
Set the dial to VDC and, with the engine OFF, place the red lead on the POS terminal and the black lead on the NEG terminal. You should get about 12.4V; if you see less, your battery isn't fully charged.

Start the engine and do the same test. You should see about 14V give or take half a volt. If you see less, your alternator isn't charging the battery.

These two checks aren't the only checks to make; they won't, for instance, tell you how many cranking amps you have available or the state of charge. You'll need a dedicated battery tester for those. You don't need to worry about them, though, unless your simple tests fail. And even then, I'd charge the battery overnight on a charger and see where that gets you, if the battery is low.

Fantastic! Thank you very much. This is super helpful and I'm looking forward to using this multimeter again for something haha

 

[Malleus]

Report back when you know more.

 

[MtnMantologist]

Report back when you know more.

Will do. Unfortunately, and I didn't consider this, the car is in the shop for some body work. Just dropped it off this morning and expect it back Friday.

 

[nissanh]

While cranking I do not see the RPM needle moving. IF you have a code reader, check for RPM signal during crank. Your first picture at autozone shows no crank signal. If it is not present, you might be dealing with a damaged crank wire. Make sure the crank sensor wireharness is not rubbing on the drive belt near the AC compressor clutch pulley.

 

[2001LC]

Likely fuel issue.

But first, I did not see security light on console, in second video. When I saw a key in hand. If security light not working, we can't tell if going off when key in IG SW. If on/working when key out of IG SW. Look to see it goes off, when key in IG SW. If not, immobilizer issue. Which keeps fuel pump (no power to) from running. ie crank no start.

I too noticed no RPM during cranking no start. But honestly, I need to go watch one. To see if RPM do read during cranking. As I just don't recall looking before! If it should show RPM. I'd look at wire on front of engine, coming from crank sensor. It's, so often is routed wrong during fan bracket install. Like during Timing belt service. Then rubs on drive belt, cutting through wire.

But I suspect a failing fuel pump. First long crank to start, is symptom of fuel injectors with excessive leak down (lack of ready fuel for start up). It can also be, sign low fuel pressure. Second crank no start, happens periodically over a years time. Is indicative of failing fuel pump. Sluggish acceleration, can also be form low fuel flow. Test is checking for fuel flow from fuel filter, during crank no start. No fuel, and security light going out IG key in. 9 out of 10 times: Fuel pump & filter R&R solve the issue.