Hydraulic Winch APU?

[Rusty]

I'm sure that others have thought of this, maybe even done it... anyone know? I couldn't find the topic with the search engine.

I have always been a fan of the idea of a hydraulic winch with the exception of course of taking into the consideration the fact that you may not always be able to run your engine to drive your power steering pump.

Does anybody out there know if anyone has ever hooked up a 12V DC motor driven hydraulic pump as an emergency backup to the vehicle's power steering pump? Man lifts use these in case the engine fails so that a crew in the lift can return to earth on battery power...

12V DC MTE Hydraulic Pump and Motor Combo - 250-737

They look compact enough to not eat up too much under hood space. The only drawback is that it would of course be something that would most likely rarely see any use. It would however provide peace of mind to someone who wants hydraulic recovery say in an expeditionary Cruiser that is running solo.

Just a thought. Here is an interesting comparison on winches, electric and hydraulic BTW, obviously with a Mile Marker bias...

Mile Marker Winch Comparison Video | Truckspring.com

 

[Rusty]

Things to consider. What are the pressure and flow demands of winching under load? I doubt that pump will move enough fluid to make it worth while. That pump has no valving or fluid reservoir. Need fluid and directional control to make it happen.

In the man lift application example you gave it sounds like gravity is doing most of the work. That and most man lifts I've used didn't require much in the way of hydraulic power. The hydraulics only ran to move the lift up/down or to manuver the lift across the floor. They didn't have to run continous like a winching application nor did they have to move the weight of a stuck truck.

I'm sure with a big enough pump, motor and battery system you can make it work. But then you might as well buy the best electric winch at that point and save the weight. I too like the power and utility of a PTO winch (hydraulic or shaft drive) but a dual system like electro-hydraulic doesn't make much sense to me.

Nick

Of course you would only use an APU as an emergency back-up, say to right your truck in the event of a roll-over when you couldn't run your engine.

Things would definitely have to be looked into, i.e. determining flow paths, rates. You might even be able to get away with something as unsophisticated as leaving the APU isolated from the power steering/winch circuit using hand operated ball valves (though a solenoid operated DCV would be nicer), and opening supply from the power steering reservoir (this might be the difficult part) only when needed. As for a relief, the winch should have it's own, though depending on where it is on the circuit the APU may need it's own or you could find a pump with an internal relief.

I'm not sure what the power steering pump delivers in terms of flow (probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 3-5 GPM), but an APU such as the one above could be spec'd to work (there are bigger units and obviously many other manufacturers). That particular pump delivers 1.6 GPM and 2000 psi. Mile Marker states that their winches are designed to operate at 1400 psi, though a flow rate that is too low would result in a lower winch line speed, again you would have to spec out an appropriate pump.

Man lifts i.e. boom lifts, (not scissor lifts) do require temporary pressure supply in an emergency to drive the turn table motor and cylinders. On boom retraction you could rely on gravity, but extension of a cylinder against gravity obviously requires fluid flow and in a boom equipped lift straight down is not always the path to a safe descent. That's why they are equipped with these battery powered electric motor driven APU's.

I know this is nothing new to anyone but given that electric winches have plenty of failings, weight, solenoids, moisture, high amp draw at 12V etc. Hydraulic winches make so much more sense in just about every situation (submerged in a river crossing for instance) other than they are usless when the engine dies.

I would be surprised if this hasn't been done, or at least tried given that the US military equips all their Humvees with Mile Marker hydraulics.

Dunno it's just an idea.

 

[TLCHopII]

Maybe look into an electric power steering pump. There was a member posting up, not log ago, about using an elec. pump for steering but this should be applicable

 

[liljlandon]

We tried on our 40 series, but couldnt get the lines ran properly so once the winch got used for any extended period of time the fluid would back track and come out the res for the aux pump.

 

[TLCHopII]

On the surface it sounds like a check valve would be your friend! They sell on e-bay for around $15.00.
Was the backup experienced during winch use or at idle?

 

[GLTHFJ60]

There is no way a stock PS pump could power a hydraulic winch. What pump are you guys running, saginaw? How do you plumb the winch to the PS pump while still running power steering?

 

[TLCHopII]

Mile Marker produces power steering pump powered, hydraulic winches not unlike that which is on my Cruiser. The winch is plumbed, in series, between the Saginaw pump and the steering box. A solenoid operated valve body is utilized to "bypass" the winch when not in use and control winch direction while it is in use. Check out their website. They have some good info and comparison tests available there.
Under typical conditions, the steering is not effected due to the fluid being plumbed in series. That is, I am able to steer while using the winch.

The two issues experienced to date have been:
1) not able to use the winch if the engine is off (IE a roll over)
2) Heavy winch use tends to heat up the power steering fluid. A cooler and an increased fluid storage capacity are in my future. regardless, the hydraulic (ATF) winch does not overheat or fade like many of the electrics. That said I am still looking for a good deal on an 8274. But I digress.

 

[roalco]

There is no way a stock PS pump could power a hydraulic winch. What pump are you guys running, saginaw? How do you plumb the winch to the PS pump while still running power steering?

Well, I'm running a surplus US milspec (HUMV) Milemarker (basically a 10.500lb unit) on my BJ60 with a stock toyota slipper vane PS pump (with 420,000k on it).
It's not at the max pressure or flow that the winch is rated for but it gives me well over 8000 lb single line pull on a dynamometer. More than adequate, with loads of safety factor built in. And high speed is fine for line recovery and still packs almost half a ton of pull (measured on the dyno).
Am using the MM remote solenoid valve pack, which includes a priority valve, which gives pressure to the steering when needed when the winch is running. Plumbed in with HP hose, just like MM shows and recommends.
Works good, runs cool and will run for hours, and hours, and hours.... Slow and steady gets the job done, and it works just fine for me.

As far as APU's go, don't forget it's horsepower in= horsepower out (minus efficiency factor) so you'll need one big 12v pump motor... at least 5hp... mega amps...
For engine-off emergencies I carry a proper industrial come-along fitted with 5/16 amsteel and a couple of snatch blocks (lighter than an apu rig). Never needed to use it in anger yet myself, but it has been lent out and can easily get a rig back on it's feet with a bit of rigging...

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Mile Marker produces power steering pump powered, hydraulic winches not unlike that which is on my Cruiser. The winch is plumbed, in series, between the Saginaw pump and the steering box. A solenoid operated valve body is utilized to "bypass" the winch when not in use and control winch direction while it is in use. Check out their website. They have some good info and comparison tests available there.
Under typical conditions, the steering is not effected due to the fluid being plumbed in series. That is, I am able to steer while using the winch.

The two issues experienced to date have been:
1) not able to use the winch if the engine is off (IE a roll over)
2) Heavy winch use tends to heat up the power steering fluid. A cooler and an increased fluid storage capacity are in my future. regardless, the hydraulic (ATF) winch does not overheat or fade like many of the electrics. That said I am still looking for a good deal on an 8274. But I digress.

Well, I'm running a surplus US milspec (HUMV) Milemarker (basically a 10.500lb unit) on my BJ60 with a stock toyota slipper vane PS pump (with 420,000k on it).
It's not at the max pressure or flow that the winch is rated for but it gives me well over 8000 lb single line pull on a dynamometer. More than adequate, with loads of safety factor built in. And high speed is fine for line recovery and still packs almost half a ton of pull (measured on the dyno).
Am using the MM remote solenoid valve pack, which includes a priority valve, which gives pressure to the steering when needed when the winch is running. Plumbed in with HP hose, just like MM shows and recommends.
Works good, runs cool and will run for hours, and hours, and hours.... Slow and steady gets the job done, and it works just fine for me.

As far as APU's go, don't forget it's horsepower in= horsepower out (minus efficiency factor) so you'll need one big 12v pump motor... at least 5hp... mega amps...
For engine-off emergencies I carry a proper industrial come-along fitted with 5/16 amsteel and a couple of snatch blocks (lighter than an apu rig). Never needed to use it in anger yet myself, but it has been lent out and can easily get a rig back on it's feet with a bit of rigging...

Now I understand. Do you ever find yourself wishing you had an electric winch?

Have any pictures of your setup? MM hydro winches look like the ticket.

 

[TLCHopII]

Yup have regretted it once. Laid the cruiser over on it's side and had to rely on a friends "Heep" and a tow strap to pull me back over. And yeah he got allot of mileage out that one!!

Hydro's tend to be a bit slower than electrics. Has been a little cumbersome when using it to lower tanks into hotel basements down parking ramps. But then that is not it's intended use and the "the price was right". lol

Can provide pics on the weekend.

 

[UWdave]

Just a thought. Here is an interesting comparison on winches, electric and hydraulic BTW, obviously with a Mile Marker bias...

Mile Marker Winch Comparison Video | Truckspring.com

That was a horrible comparison. How often do people run their winch without the engine running and revving?

I'm not saying there isn't benefit to hydraulics. I'm thinking strongly about going that route... but that test wasn't fair. I like the idea of the hydraulic, but I need to find more un-biased comparisons.

BTW. In most rollover situations I can think of, I'd rather winch with my hi-lift than try self righting with a front winch.

 

[shelfboy1]

drove tow truck for a couple years and all the winches were hydraulic but pto driven.given the expense of a back up electric pump a good come along will do the same work as was mentioned.seldom used items in a vehicle have a tendancy not to work when needed most .a small 3000lb electric winch and a set of jumper cables will get you out of a lot of stuff.put it on a plate with a chain hook up and you can put anywhere you want as long as the cables reach.or take the battery out and mount it in a tree to pull the truck back over ,have actually done this .good luck

 

[CruisinGA]

^^Shelfboy hits the nail on the head.

 

[UWdave]

That was a horrible comparison. How often do people run their winch without the engine running and revving?

I'm not saying there isn't benefit to hydraulics. I'm thinking strongly about going that route... but that test wasn't fair. I like the idea of the hydraulic, but I need to find more un-biased comparisons.

BTW. In most rollover situations I can think of, I'd rather winch with my hi-lift than try self righting with a front winch.

For those that don't watch the video: they run the hydraulic winch off a 3/4 ton while running. For the electric winches, they use a stand-alone battery. (fresh charge for each run)

 

[Alister]

no sure good luck with that.