Hungry Valley trip and the things I learned

[NLXTACY]

Sounds like a fun and educational trip. I ran over a smallish boulder and bent one of my running boards... Just bumped it and crunch... Installed sliders and they are awesome.

Loose the damage multipler up front and get a Shortbus or ARB.

Running boards are coming off, probably tonight. Sliders I need to get, very soon. I want the ShirtBus but the say no, she wants the beefy ARB cattle catcher. The damage multiplier isn't allowed to come off until I have a replacement

 

[Shahram]

Hey Shahram lets do it.

Birds do it,
bees do it,
even educated fleas do it!
Let's do it,
Let's wreck your truck...

...call me.

 

[cary]

As to brakes, I've seen a lot of "my brakes wouldn't stop the truck" stuff on trails. I've seen ABS engage on one vehicle as it dropped onto the first of 5 ledges, which allowed the vehicle to speed up and hit the bottom one fast enough to deploy the airbags and cause severe damage. I've seen people swear they were on the brakes and realize they were on the gas (I did this once in an unfamiliar vehicle - scary). I've been climbing a steep hill with ABS when one tire caught air at the lip which stopped all momentum, then hit the brakes and the ABS system interpreted the fast spinning tire as road speed and prevented me from stopping the other 3 tires (actually on the ground and fine) as sliding. This caused a serious E ticket ride back down the hill in reverse.

As noted the CDL does nothing for/against stalling. It simply shouldn't be stalling, so that needs to be attended to.

DougM

Jumping in halfway here. If he didn't have the center diff lock engaged, then the ABS was still active which means that it could have engaged preventing him from stopping. I have had it where I am on mixed mu surfaces in high range, center diff unlocked and the car won't stop at low speed. It seems that it senses one or two tires that have low traction and limits the pressure to all the tires. It is very disconcerting, and if you aren't paying attention or are freaked out won't notice the ABS pump chattering away when it happens. I have had ABS engage enough to feel it in the pedal and hear the pump when it happens. When it happened to me, there were a few four letter words uttered about ABS.

The 100 series apparently doesn't have this problem (don't tell Cupcake or he will rant about it for months). Locking the center diff disables the ABS and eliminates this problem.

I do not have any idea about the stalling, but fuel starvation is my guess.

 

[chitown40]

Yes, yes you must retry that hill while videotaping the whole thing and then put it on youtube. Give me some warning and I'll get the popcorn popping....been a slow monday so far.

Now why would you need another YouTube video when you have mine. Remember when I did that dumb thing and didn't lock the CDL on Launch Pad?

BUT... I didn't stall.

 

[Randy88FJ62]

I was there when Joey did this. He decides to have big balls and go up this crazy hill. I watch him the first time and see him roll down. I then somehow end up agreeing to go up, gotta love testosterone. If he couldn't do it, I'm gonna be a cool badass and do it. I end up going reallly slow up the hill in first gear 4wd lo and I make it up fine. My Fj62 had no problem other then me thinking the hill was too steep to ever go anywhere near.

I am now on top of the hill and I'm watching Joey attempt try number two. Just as before he builds up some momentum but not gunning it crazy or anything and he gets about 80% of the way up and loses momentum. At this point he guns it and the front tires have zero traction.

So his symptoms right before the accident are:
1. High RPM
2. little or no traction on the front wheels.
3. 7Pin mod = ABS

These symptoms cause his truck to stall and no brakes... After reading the thread through I believe it has something to do with the mod allowing things to happen that shouldn't, especially with computers involved.

This is a serious issue and it needs to be figured out. If he did not have a safe, flat run out area then he could have been severely injured or dead. Thankfully the area was not crowded and no one was inhis run out area.

I'm surprised that he did so well steering down backwards with no power steering or brakes. I'm even more impressed by his abilities to do it twice and survive without oversteering and causing it to roll on the incline.

We need to get to the bottom of this and make sure that if it is the 7 PIN mod can add to this problem then there should be a warning to people who do the mod in case they find themselves in the same situation.

 

[Atticus]

I just want to make sure that I completely understand something:

Joey, you went up this hill, with your kid in the car, and stalled out and rolled down? Then, knowing that this hill caused you to stall out and roll down, you went up it a second time, still with your kid in the car?

Come on, dude.

 

[UCBerzerkeley]

Was he in low therefore? I keep assuming it, but haven't seen it verified anywere that he was in lo.

 

[CreeperSleeper]

Every time mine has stalled, it has been a higher RPM climb... Not crawling. FWIW

 

[unwiredadventures]

I'm surprised that he did so well steering down backwards with no power steering or brakes. I'm even more impressed by his abilities to do it twice and survive without oversteering and causing it to roll on the incline.

Yes, congrats on bringing the 80 down safely!

Joey, it's great to read your "what I learned posts"!

I see your has her priorities straight. Bring son home safe, you have insurance and the truck can be replaced!

 

[EricG]

A few ABS questions...
Does ABS work when the engine is not running?
Does ABS work when rolling backwards in neutral or reverse?
Does ABS work when rolling backwards with the tranny in a forward gear?

Anybody still have some snow to run some tests?

edit - and it'd be interesting to know if those answers change w/wo the 7-pin mod.

 

[80t0ylc]

Was he in low therefore? I keep assuming it, but haven't seen it verified anywere that he was in lo.

"And finally a two pieces of tech:
1. While going up the steepest hill I could fine I had a boo-boo. Here is the info I have and please see if you folks have any suggestions as too what went wrong and what needs to be fixed. I was in 4LOW, tires at 18#, CDL was OFF and I just tooled up the incline. Everything was going fine, I was butt puckered for sure but there was no issue whatsoever...UNTIL..."

Above is quote from 1st post by OP

 

[Shahram]

Just as before he builds up some momentum but not gunning it crazy or anything and he gets about 80% of the way up and loses momentum. At this point he guns it and the front tires have zero traction.

Okay, so we can establish that loose dirt + steep incline + open diffs + lots of gas + low, torquey gear = loss of traction is now theoretically pinpointed to these factors.

So his symptoms right before the accident are:
1. High RPM
2. little or no traction on the front wheels.

Again, steep, gas pedal, low gear, loose dirt, and open diffs.

3. 7Pin mod = ABS

Yes. Let's explore this even further. When he mashed down on the brake and nothing happened, was the break pedal mushy or hard? Was the brake pedal vibrating or otherwise thumping against his foot? A mushy brake pedal might allude to loss of vacuum, a hard pedal might allude to loss of boost, and vibration through the pedal might allude to ABS. When I'm braking hard and hit a bump, I might temporarily lose braking power for a moment while the ABS re-instates. This translates into a thumping at my feet through the pedal. Perhaps Joey was sort of permanently in this state, braking hard while hitting bumps and the ABS had no idea how to process this other than a total loss of tractive surface.

These symptoms cause his truck to stall and no brakes...

Why the stalling? I can understand that there are those of us who stall while rolling backwards in drive, but how far did Joey roll backwards before the stall happened? What combination of things has to happen to make the engine stall?

After reading the thread through I believe it has something to do with the mod allowing things to happen that shouldn't, especially with computers involved.

I'd believe the same thing. A perfect storm of electronic what-the-fxxxs.

I'm surprised that this hasn't happened to someone before and been mentioned, considering the countless time and hours of experience involved in and shared on a site like this. It's so rare to break any sort of new ground in a situation like this.

 

[chitown40]

I think I can answer your ABS questions from personal experience. I even have a video somewhere to back this up (not that I'm really proud of my momentary lapse of all brain power).

I was on Launch Pad in Moab, in LOW range, but did not have my CDL engaged. I originally had it on, but I needed to move the truck out of the way for another truck to go ahead of me, so I turned off the CDL since I was making some tight turns and wanted to minimize the binding. When it became my turn to go up, I forgot to re-lock the CDL and began climbing. I neared the top, but lost traction and started spinning the front tires and the rears weren't able to get me up over the top alone. I immediately applied the brakes, and then slowly and methodically backed down the hill releasing the brake pressure as the front end slid out from underneath me several times on the decline. At this point pucker factor was nearing somewhere near 2000% or normal and I continued to back down until momentum overtook the truck's ability to hold it on the rock from sliding.

Here's the link to the video made by TrickyT's son: The backward slide is from 1:00 to 3:00mins.

YouTube - Moab 08 Preview

Although it appears that the wheels are locked during my backwards slide, I can guarantee you that my CDL was off (7-pin mod done) and I was in 4-Low.

I don't know if ABS works in reverse or not. It does not appear to by the video, but not sure.

 

[FirstToy]

chitown40,
i think I saw the undercarriage suck up into the bottom of the drivers seat on that one!

 

[chitown40]

chitown40,
i think I saw the undercarriage suck up into the bottom of the drivers seat on that one!

It certainly could be worse. For instance instead of 'sucking', the flow could've been the other direction...

Joey, I don't really know you... but believe me I feel your pain and know what it feels like. Scary as all hell, especially with no ground reference while you're sliding backwards.

 

[NLXTACY]

I just want to make sure that I completely understand something:

Joey, you went up this hill, with your kid in the car, and stalled out and rolled down? Then, knowing that this hill caused you to stall out and roll down, you went up it a second time, still with your kid in the car?

Come on, dude.

Yes and I will attempt it again once I know for certain what went wrong and again with my kid in the truck. So what? This is one small hill. Am I going to be afraid of all hills and kid my family out on each one? Or am going to learn what went wrong and prevent it from happening again so that I can enjoy off roading with my family? Come on, dude.

 

[NLXTACY]

Yes I was in 4LOW first gear BOTH times. The first time was lo RPM and the second time was hi RPM.

Was he in low therefore? I keep assuming it, but haven't seen it verified anywere that he was in lo.

Every time mine has stalled, it has been a higher RPM climb... Not crawling. FWIW

 

[NLXTACY]

Okay, so we can establish that loose dirt + steep incline + open diffs + lots of gas + low, torquey gear = loss of traction is now theoretically pinpointed to these factors.

On second attempt yes, on first attempt I was letting the gearing take me up.

Yes. Let's explore this even further. When he mashed down on the brake and nothing happened, was the break pedal mushy or hard? Was the brake pedal vibrating or otherwise thumping against his foot? A mushy brake pedal might allude to loss of vacuum, a hard pedal might allude to loss of boost, and vibration through the pedal might allude to ABS. When I'm braking hard and hit a bump, I might temporarily lose braking power for a moment while the ABS re-instates. This translates into a thumping at my feet through the pedal. Perhaps Joey was sort of permanently in this state, braking hard while hitting bumps and the ABS had no idea how to process this other than a total loss of tractive surface.

Both times there was absolutely NO ABS. Pedal was hard but I did have the pedal all the way to the floor. Same thing on both attempts. First time I was kinda unsure but I verified at second attempt.

Why the stalling? I can understand that there are those of us who stall while rolling backwards in drive, but how far did Joey roll backwards before the stall happened? What combination of things has to happen to make the engine stall?

When the stall happened I noticed it was as soon as I lost traction. I noticed a wheel break free, the engine stopped and I was in freefall. It felt like I was on the Superman ride at Magic Mountain.

I'm surprised that this hasn't happened to someone before and been mentioned, considering the countless time and hours of experience involved in and shared on a site like this. It's so rare to break any sort of new ground in a situation like this.

Woohoo! Do I win a prize?

 

[NLXTACY]

Man I would have been STOKED if that was all that happened. I probably wouldn't even have mentioned it.

BTW, wtf: "This video contains an audio track that has not been authorized by WMG. The audio has been disabled. "

I think I can answer your ABS questions from personal experience. I even have a video somewhere to back this up (not that I'm really proud of my momentary lapse of all brain power).

I was on Launch Pad in Moab, in LOW range, but did not have my CDL engaged. I originally had it on, but I needed to move the truck out of the way for another truck to go ahead of me, so I turned off the CDL since I was making some tight turns and wanted to minimize the binding. When it became my turn to go up, I forgot to re-lock the CDL and began climbing. I neared the top, but lost traction and started spinning the front tires and the rears weren't able to get me up over the top alone. I immediately applied the brakes, and then slowly and methodically backed down the hill releasing the brake pressure as the front end slid out from underneath me several times on the decline. At this point pucker factor was nearing somewhere near 2000% or normal and I continued to back down until momentum overtook the truck's ability to hold it on the rock from sliding.

Here's the link to the video made by TrickyT's son: The backward slide is from 1:00 to 3:00mins.

YouTube - Moab 08 Preview

Although it appears that the wheels are locked during my backwards slide, I can guarantee you that my CDL was off (7-pin mod done) and I was in 4-Low.

I don't know if ABS works in reverse or not. It does not appear to by the video, but not sure.

 

[NLXTACY]

Joey, I don't really know you... but believe me I feel your pain and know what it feels like. Scary as all hell, especially with no ground reference while you're sliding backwards.

I think everyone is better off not knowing me

But yeah, my eyes were glued to the rear view mirror and windshield to make sure I was going backwards in a straight line. It didn't matter what was behind me, tree, another truck, gulley, as long as I was going in a straight line.