How far back should a trailer tongue be recessed?

[Herzlos]

After looking at the tongue setup on my utility trailer, which seems suspect, I've decided it probably needs tweaked so looking for some advice.

The trailer is 6'x4' with an 2" angle iron frame, on leaf springs. At each end of the springs is a horizontal bar across the underside of the body, connected to the frame (it's the only underside support), the tongue is a single bar (channel approx 3" wide, 2" tall, 1/4" thick) which is welded onto the foremost horizontal bar and... onto the axle itself. This means that instead of the springs doing all of the damping the frame bends a bit, and the reason I want to change it.

I was considering just cutting the tongue bar off from behind the first horizontal support, but I'm worried I'll weaken it too much. Another option is to put in a 3rd support bar (2" angle iron) under the frame above the axle and welding the tongue onto that.

The distance between the front of the trailer and the existing horizontal is about 2ft, and the new bar would be approximately 3ft from the front.

I'll try and upload a photo of the trailer frame later, but for now he's a quick diagram that should show what I mean:

 

[Herzlos]

Additionally: it'll be use for fairly heavy loads (gravel etc) and is rated at 1500lbs.

 

[Herzlos]

Here's a picture of the trailer frame itself, I've circled the weld I'm suspicious of:

My options appear to be:
1) just cut off the section of tongue bar between the axle and the forward support bar and leave it at that, which means removing a lot of metal [pro: weight saving. con: frame weakening]
2) Add a new support bar above the axle (2" angle iron), weld the tongue bar to it, and cut off the weld connecting it to the axle, cutting some away to allow suspension travel. [pro: stronger, more base support. con: lots of work, might not allow full suspension travel).
3) Leaving it alone. [pro: easy. con: it looks like a pretty bad idea].

What do you think?

 

[gulfsurfing]

It looks like to me that with the tongue welded to the axle that there would be almost zero suspension travel. I would cut the tongue from the axle and put another crossmember to tie the tongue into. Now if this is a tilt-able trailer then that could change everything.
Good Luck

 

[ntsqd]

I'd just cut it off at the rear-most cross-member and remove the rest from the axle tube. Whomever did that was clearly clueless. I take it that trailers don't have to go thru the MoT process?

 

[Rubiconcruiser]

Your best bet will be to add a frame rail to either side of the frame, remove the current hitch tube from the axle and weld it to a cross member attached to the side rails. This will strengthen the entire front triangulation area and give you a much more secure platform. Best of luck, and keep it posted. These guys wont steer you wrong. They are too proud.

 

[skersfan]

when you say it will be used to carry gravel, how much are you planning on carrying, the 1500pound number mentioned or more.

I would lay some 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 box tubing in this puppy if you really plan to use it. I would go with 2x2 at the cut junciton of the tongue, and yes it needs to be cut, as the suspension is worhtless as it is.

But I imagine who ever was using saw the sway and strain and tried to fix the problem. The problen is the light weight angle iron. Anything carrying heavy weight, on road or off road should not be made with angle iron, other than in the top area. You will see this on very low end trailers and some use channel, a step up, but not really the answer.

Have fun.

 

[Herzlos]

Thanks for the replies guys.

It looks like to me that with the tongue welded to the axle that there would be almost zero suspension travel. I would cut the tongue from the axle and put another crossmember to tie the tongue into. Now if this is a tilt-able trailer then that could change everything.
Good Luck

There is some (marginal) suspension give, but that results in the frame bending from the front spring connection point, which seems to be a recipe for failure.

The trailer doesn't tilt or anything fancy.

I'd just cut it off at the rear-most cross-member and remove the rest from the axle tube. Whomever did that was clearly clueless. I take it that trailers don't have to go thru the MoT process?

You mean to just remove the tongue from between the axle and the crossmember with no additional support? That's the option I'm leaning towards but I'm concerned it won't be strong enough.

There are no MoT / safety requirements for trailers here, just a set of incomprehensible regulations about weight and size. The police are able to stop and impound trailers if they regard it "unsafe", but there's no legal definition or certification. Though from the condition of some trailers I've seen on the road here it doesn't happen often...

Your best bet will be to add a frame rail to either side of the frame, remove the current hitch tube from the axle and weld it to a cross member attached to the side rails. This will strengthen the entire front triangulation area and give you a much more secure platform. Best of luck, and keep it posted. These guys wont steer you wrong. They are too proud.

I'll look into that option too. I'm pretty impressed with the knowledge of the guys on here, this has certainly been the most useful resource I've found in the process of the re-build.

when you say it will be used to carry gravel, how much are you planning on carrying, the 1500pound number mentioned or more.

I mean the total weight will not exceed 1500lb; the hitch is rated to 15cwt (760kg) so it's not legally allowed to weigh more. It's most likely to be used to collect 1000lb loads from builders merchants, or hauling smaller loads between properties and dump and I doubt the trailer weights 500lb empty.

I would lay some 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 box tubing in this puppy if you really plan to use it. I would go with 2x2 at the cut junciton of the tongue, and yes it needs to be cut, as the suspension is worhtless as it is.

I might go down that route, but I think if I start doing that I'm as well using the parts to fabricate a completely new trailer (once I've learned to weld - I'll be getting someone else to do the current work). I do agree the suspension is currently worthless (or even more of a nuisance than a benefit).

What/where do you mean by the cut junction of the tongue?

But I imagine who ever was using saw the sway and strain and tried to fix the problem. The problen is the light weight angle iron. Anything carrying heavy weight, on road or off road should not be made with angle iron, other than in the top area. You will see this on very low end trailers and some use channel, a step up, but not really the answer.

It looks like it'd been designed that way, as the draw bar isn't quite level and the welding on the front cross-member has a spacer. If I was rebuilding completely I'd be using a box section for the lower frame (it's only currently got that front and back).

 

[John E Davies]

No offense, but that is a really cr@ppy trailer and I don't think it is worth either your time or your money. Why not just scrap it and buy a used one that isn't totally rusted and will SAFELY carry your half ton of gravel?

I once bought a used sailboat and the trailer was so rusty and perforated that it really was scrap - they get to the point where they aren't fixable, especially if they are ill-built in the first place with wrong materials and cr@ppy workmanship.

You need to consider the likelihood of your rig coming apart on the highway and killing some people....

John Davies
Spokane WA USA

 

[The Jade Bean]

I'm going to agree that you should just start over... Possibly build one and re-use some of the actual good parts off the old one. Trailers really aren't that hard to build and unfortunately your current setup seems to be unsuitable for everyone involved.

Last option: If you really don't want to do a complete rebuild you can scab a better square tube frame inside of that angle frame. You would also have to cut that tongue loose and brace it in the scabbed on frame.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

-Daniel

Sent from deep in the mountains of Honduras using only sticks and rocks.

 

[skersfan]

In honesty, both are right, not much value there, angle iron is about the worst frame material there is other than say wood. You can build a small trailer frame for less than two hundred bucks and have a good base for your project.

2x2 120 wall is far and away strong enough for it and 2.5x2.5 240 wall tongue, which will be the most expensive part.

I always figure the placement of the axle by the length of the box, for every foot of box, I move the axle back 1 inch. Keep that in mind on location of tongue, I normally stay with in 1 foot of that mark.

 

[Dell]

wow !

I'm wondering if the bonehead that welded this tongue up...
is dragging some other abortion down the road ? http://foolstown.com/sm/158.gif




http://i.imgur.com/zOSYM.jpg

 

[Herzlos]

No offense, but that is a really cr@ppy trailer and I don't think it is worth either your time or your money. Why not just scrap it and buy a used one that isn't totally rusted and will SAFELY carry your half ton of gravel?

I once bought a used sailboat and the trailer was so rusty and perforated that it really was scrap - they get to the point where they aren't fixable, especially if they are ill-built in the first place with wrong materials and cr@ppy workmanship.

You need to consider the likelihood of your rig coming apart on the highway and killing some people....

John Davies
Spokane WA USA

No offense taken, had I known about it at the time I wouldn't have bought it. Buying another one is a possibility, though braked trailers of that size are pretty rare over here. I'll investigate building a new one from the parts, and just reinforce and use it for light duties in the mean time (the gravel loads are rare).

The rest of it's pretty sturdy, but I do question why it'd have been built like that in the first place.

 

[Herzlos]

I've gone for the cut-and-replace option, removing the join and adding a new crossmember. There's no better picture of it now because I'd already re-fitted the panels before it occurred to me.

I also picked up a new (old) frame, though I'm undecided if I want to use parts from it to reinforce the existing one, try and set up the new frame with parts from the old one, or make a 2nd trailer entirely. The new frame is 7'x4'5" internally (Vs 6'x3'9"), so the existing axle isn't wide enough to fit direct, and it's already got mounting plates for a torsion hub..

 

[Rubiconcruiser]

1st trailer frame, as long as you have not attached the tongue extension to the existing X member it needs to be done, you may want to add an angle from the tongue bar to the side rails of the frame, this will give you a torsion or twisting limiter, (it wont bend) as easily unless really off camber or radical twist. Keep the material as close to frame size as possible. The new frame could be modified easily enough for the axle, it would just require a little cutting and restrengthing of the frame. maybe a better choice. Something to think about.

 

[e9999]

that welded to axle thing was amazing... never seen anything remotely like it.

One question: is this new crossmember a flat bar? That may not give you a lot of rigidity in the vertical direction, which you'd want, I think. Maybe use tube or angle instead?

All in all, I'd save that trailer for really light loads.

 

[Kevin Rutherford]

Amazing, yes, also very funny. The guy must have been well through the case of beer by then. LOL

 

[890man]

Wow, it looks like someone put an axle on one of those cheap free bed frames they give you when buying a new mattress. I would put an axle on the second frame and run that.

 

[Herzlos]

Yup it's nuts. Since I've freed up the suspension my fear about the springs being too weak has been proved correct; I can bottom out the suspension with about 400lbs of load, so I'm looking at putting on some heavier springs I already have as I doubt it's worth trying to beef up the existing set.

I'm probably just going to consign this to light duty for long stuff and save up to buy a new steel trailer with a much higher load, and just treat this one as an engineering exercise