HELP! Serious problems after head gasket job!
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aren't these dots supposed to face each other? So they both face inside.
It's been a while for me and I don't have my book with me.
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- #23
Gents,
It was a strange feeling with those bolts. I really thought I had stripped something, but don't really think I did because they kept tightening. Others were just plain hard.
Yesterday evening, I pulled the thermostat out and filler her up with water so I could run a couple of flushes. That was before I tried to start her. Today I looked in the radiator, and there's oil. Milky white and slimy. Great.
So, I'm guessing I have one of two options:
Take the head bolts out, clean holes and bolts, reinsert them WITHOUT pouring oil in, and double check my cams, balancer and distributor timing, and try again,
or,
assume the worst, tear it all back down again, inspect block and head, possibly have to get another gasket, and reinstall as above.
Any recommendations?
And by the way, thanks for the help. I tried to be smarter than the book, and did some stuff I shouldn't have, and I appreciate your time helping me.
-Eddie
It was a strange feeling with those bolts. I really thought I had stripped something, but don't really think I did because they kept tightening. Others were just plain hard.
Yesterday evening, I pulled the thermostat out and filler her up with water so I could run a couple of flushes. That was before I tried to start her. Today I looked in the radiator, and there's oil. Milky white and slimy. Great.
So, I'm guessing I have one of two options:
Take the head bolts out, clean holes and bolts, reinsert them WITHOUT pouring oil in, and double check my cams, balancer and distributor timing, and try again,
or,
assume the worst, tear it all back down again, inspect block and head, possibly have to get another gasket, and reinstall as above.
Any recommendations?
And by the way, thanks for the help. I tried to be smarter than the book, and did some stuff I shouldn't have, and I appreciate your time helping me.
-Eddie
Eddie,
IGNORE the cruiser and enjoy the daughter's 16th Bday! She will only turn 16 once and as I understand it turning 16 is a huge deal for kids, especially girls. My little ones have a ways to go yet
The Cruiser will still be there tomorrow.
As for what to do...I like the experts suggestions on absolutely insuring the timing etc is 100% correct and trying again. If it is and the rig still won't run, then tear it all down again. IMO unless you have flushed the system several times correctly there is bound to still be a certain amount of gunk in there. Even then you probably can't truly get all the old gunk out.
Good luck and hang in there.
IGNORE the cruiser and enjoy the daughter's 16th Bday! She will only turn 16 once and as I understand it turning 16 is a huge deal for kids, especially girls. My little ones have a ways to go yet
The Cruiser will still be there tomorrow.
As for what to do...I like the experts suggestions on absolutely insuring the timing etc is 100% correct and trying again. If it is and the rig still won't run, then tear it all down again. IMO unless you have flushed the system several times correctly there is bound to still be a certain amount of gunk in there. Even then you probably can't truly get all the old gunk out.
Good luck and hang in there.
It's a wierd feeling when you hydraulic a bolt in the thread.
As you tighten the bolt it goes tight, thats when it is generating hight psi on the end of the bolt and the bottom of the threaded hole, depending on how fine the thread is, is how much pressure is produced per revolution of the bolt.
It takes time to relieve this pressure, so as soon as you stop tightening, the pressure slowly drops, lets say after 10 seconds you try and tighten the screw again, it will feel loose because the pressure has fallen, this time delay is all relavant to the thread tolerances, it can take seconds to minutes to relieve the pressure being created.
So bear this in mind when tightning bolts/screws into blind holes, and by the way, it's not just oil that can cause hydraulicing, it can be water or even muck that can cause the same problems.
As you tighten the bolt it goes tight, thats when it is generating hight psi on the end of the bolt and the bottom of the threaded hole, depending on how fine the thread is, is how much pressure is produced per revolution of the bolt.
It takes time to relieve this pressure, so as soon as you stop tightening, the pressure slowly drops, lets say after 10 seconds you try and tighten the screw again, it will feel loose because the pressure has fallen, this time delay is all relavant to the thread tolerances, it can take seconds to minutes to relieve the pressure being created.
So bear this in mind when tightning bolts/screws into blind holes, and by the way, it's not just oil that can cause hydraulicing, it can be water or even muck that can cause the same problems.
- Thread starter
- #26
Results of inspection
Daughter's birthday over, I did some checking after work. Everything on the timing was inline. I put balancer at -0-, took off dizzy, rotor was pointing down. Took off valve cover, cams weren't aligned, so I rotated crank 360 right back to -0-, and cams were perfect--single dots meshed together and double dots outside, and all dots in a perfect line. Upper timing gear dot was right at 12 o'clock. Dizzy rotor was now right at #1.
So, I pulled the cams, sucked almost all the oil out of the head, and pulled the bolts. Only a couple of them were difficult to move. The rest were pretty simple. Nothing near like the force I was using to install them. They are all uniform, no threads messed up, and nothing felt like it was stripped.
The bolt holes have a water/oil mixture, which was too thin to suck out with the oxygen tubing I was using. I couldn't really inspect the gasket though. I believe I didn't have the head on tight, and wasn't getting any compression, and was allowing some oil to seep into the coolant passages. Maybe not, but that's my best guess.
I now have a couple of options:
Blow the holes dry with a compressor and long straight tube, reinstall everything, and hope for the best, or
Assume the gasket is toast, and order another one. If I go that route, my plan is to do disconnect the exhaust and all the connectors from the intake side, and just lift it high enough to clear the timing guides, and install the new one. I figure all the cleaning work has already been done.
It only ran for a few minutes, and extremely low rpm at that. Anyone figure the gasket is still good? Or do they get toast really easy?
Also, can the HG be ordered separately from the kit?
Thanks for any suggestions.
Eddie
Daughter's birthday over, I did some checking after work. Everything on the timing was inline. I put balancer at -0-, took off dizzy, rotor was pointing down. Took off valve cover, cams weren't aligned, so I rotated crank 360 right back to -0-, and cams were perfect--single dots meshed together and double dots outside, and all dots in a perfect line. Upper timing gear dot was right at 12 o'clock. Dizzy rotor was now right at #1.
So, I pulled the cams, sucked almost all the oil out of the head, and pulled the bolts. Only a couple of them were difficult to move. The rest were pretty simple. Nothing near like the force I was using to install them. They are all uniform, no threads messed up, and nothing felt like it was stripped.
The bolt holes have a water/oil mixture, which was too thin to suck out with the oxygen tubing I was using. I couldn't really inspect the gasket though. I believe I didn't have the head on tight, and wasn't getting any compression, and was allowing some oil to seep into the coolant passages. Maybe not, but that's my best guess.
I now have a couple of options:
Blow the holes dry with a compressor and long straight tube, reinstall everything, and hope for the best, or
Assume the gasket is toast, and order another one. If I go that route, my plan is to do disconnect the exhaust and all the connectors from the intake side, and just lift it high enough to clear the timing guides, and install the new one. I figure all the cleaning work has already been done.
It only ran for a few minutes, and extremely low rpm at that. Anyone figure the gasket is still good? Or do they get toast really easy?
Also, can the HG be ordered separately from the kit?
Thanks for any suggestions.
Eddie
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Hmm, hmm, hmm. The engine never really got hot in terms of activating the heat activated plasticky stuff that helps adhere. But. There were likely places that very hot gases were blowing past it if indeed the head was loose. So based on that assumption the gasket has been heated here and there to possibly cause the one-time-use adhesion stuff to activate.
My other comment would be that if you are able to pull the gasket off literally like it was simply laid there and doesn't adhere then I'd be tempted to say "Hmm, it didn't adhere anywhere so it's fine."
Otherwise, one other challenge would be recleaning the head/block surfaces to remove coolant and oil residue and frankly with the head sitting above it dripping oil constantly I don't think you'll be able to pull that off so easily. Perhaps you'll get it clean, but then while jiggling it to get the gasket in some drops will fall on it, etc. It will be interesting to see how high you can lift and secure the head with a bunch of connectors on.
I think merely blowing the bolt holes clear and reinstalling the bolts may be a mistake as to near definite contamination of the head gaskets sealing surfaces. Might run a week, might run a month - dunno. If that happened and you damaged the engine I think you'd regret it.
Lastly, I'm certain the gasket is available separately though it's not much more to get the whole "valve grind kit" from Dan that includes the other stuff. Spare parts bin, I guess.
DougM
My other comment would be that if you are able to pull the gasket off literally like it was simply laid there and doesn't adhere then I'd be tempted to say "Hmm, it didn't adhere anywhere so it's fine."
Otherwise, one other challenge would be recleaning the head/block surfaces to remove coolant and oil residue and frankly with the head sitting above it dripping oil constantly I don't think you'll be able to pull that off so easily. Perhaps you'll get it clean, but then while jiggling it to get the gasket in some drops will fall on it, etc. It will be interesting to see how high you can lift and secure the head with a bunch of connectors on.
I think merely blowing the bolt holes clear and reinstalling the bolts may be a mistake as to near definite contamination of the head gaskets sealing surfaces. Might run a week, might run a month - dunno. If that happened and you damaged the engine I think you'd regret it.
Lastly, I'm certain the gasket is available separately though it's not much more to get the whole "valve grind kit" from Dan that includes the other stuff. Spare parts bin, I guess.
DougM
Just double checking, but when you did this, and got everything lined up, was your #1 piston at TDC ?
Am I correct or incorrect in thinking that these (and other) stretch bolts are single use? Good luck getting things back to where they need to be sounds to me like you've got the patience to gitterdone!
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- #30
I absolutely know the gasket is contaminated. All around the block there was oil from when I had initially put it on, and I attribute it to the stupid oil thing I did. So just based on that, you're right, the gasket is probably done for.
Plus, you're also right, just having the head hanging there won't allow me to clean and dry the surfaces and have a "sterile" environment in which to work and allow the gasket to adhere.
The #1 piston was at TDC. Actually, when I pulled the head off the first time, I made sure the balancer was at -0-, and cams were aligned, and the #1 and #6 pistons were at the top. Because I marked the timing chain with the timing gear, it never moved and was never rotated, and I put everything back according to the book. I'm now sure it wasn't the timing.
Are these stretch bolts? If they are, are they intended to use one time only?
-Eddie
Plus, you're also right, just having the head hanging there won't allow me to clean and dry the surfaces and have a "sterile" environment in which to work and allow the gasket to adhere.
The #1 piston was at TDC. Actually, when I pulled the head off the first time, I made sure the balancer was at -0-, and cams were aligned, and the #1 and #6 pistons were at the top. Because I marked the timing chain with the timing gear, it never moved and was never rotated, and I put everything back according to the book. I'm now sure it wasn't the timing.
Are these stretch bolts? If they are, are they intended to use one time only?
-Eddie
NeverFinis
SILVER Star
They are stretch bolts but the manual doesn't say they are one time use. I reused mine when I did a HG at 90K and I am at 155K now, (knock on wood).
Eddie, sorry to here your misfortune here. you definatly can get a head gasket by itself and also reused my bolts when i did my HG. my tech friend didnt hesitate to put them back in. i would put another gasket in and clean head and block surface again. better to ba safe than soory. this way you know for sure that part is done 100% correct. just my .02 cents
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I hate to say it, but if it were mine, I would have to redo it with a new gasket. There are too many questions, is the gasket damaged, is there a block issue, are there bolts that are deformed due to overtorquing, twisting, etc. The whole reason to do a big job like this is to have confidence in a reliable motor, rig and I would never trust it. On long trips, when far offroad, there would always be the question in the back of my mind, is today the day when we are going to have issues with it?
I agree, the only oil needed is a skin, film to get a good torque. I always carry it a step further, after the block surface, holes and bolts are cleaned and lubed, I run the bolts into the holes, making sure that they all thread, all of the way down smoothly by hand, if any bind it will affect the final torque and it/they need more attention, cleaning, wire brushing, thread chasing, etc.
I agree, the only oil needed is a skin, film to get a good torque. I always carry it a step further, after the block surface, holes and bolts are cleaned and lubed, I run the bolts into the holes, making sure that they all thread, all of the way down smoothly by hand, if any bind it will affect the final torque and it/they need more attention, cleaning, wire brushing, thread chasing, etc.
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Is this stuff "heat activated plasticky stuff that helps adhere" on both sides of the gasket and are you sure that's it's purpose?
I have never done a 80 head or seen a new gasket, but have done many dissimilar metals heads and the heads are dynamic, they move around big-time in relationship to the block. Most gaskets for dissimilar metals motors have at least one side that’s ether clean or has a lubricant coat to allow the head to slide over it. If typical composite head gaskets are adhered to both the head and block, they usually fail internally from the shearing force of the head growing and shrinking with each heating, cooling cycle.
The head movement is the main reason for the ‘torque to yield” type head bolts. Think of them as very stiff springs, they allow the head to float, move and still provide relatively even clamping force when both hot and cold.
Kevin,
The gasket sticks firmly to both surfaces, to the point you need a razor to remove the remains of the plastic film. It was interesting to note when I had to pull the head on the 97 back off after a week to note that in some spots the plastic had adhered fully and in others it came off with gentle pulling. I'm not 100% certain this is literally what they designed it to do, just noting that the tacky feel seems intended for adhesion and to handle minor surface imperfections. Interesting.
My head bolts were used twice after their initial installation at the factory for a total of three times. Just to be sure, I paid to have them measured by a machinist and they were all well within spec for reuse. So I'd imagine yours to be the same especially since it appears they weren't really properly torqued. There's a spec in the FSM showing how to measure and where.
The SAE torque figures for fasteners assume only a very very light film as they arrive from a factory for use to prevent corrosion. Making them wet is too much. Having them oily and wiping as best you can with a rag would likely be most close to the SAE intention.
DougM
The gasket sticks firmly to both surfaces, to the point you need a razor to remove the remains of the plastic film. It was interesting to note when I had to pull the head on the 97 back off after a week to note that in some spots the plastic had adhered fully and in others it came off with gentle pulling. I'm not 100% certain this is literally what they designed it to do, just noting that the tacky feel seems intended for adhesion and to handle minor surface imperfections. Interesting.
My head bolts were used twice after their initial installation at the factory for a total of three times. Just to be sure, I paid to have them measured by a machinist and they were all well within spec for reuse. So I'd imagine yours to be the same especially since it appears they weren't really properly torqued. There's a spec in the FSM showing how to measure and where.
The SAE torque figures for fasteners assume only a very very light film as they arrive from a factory for use to prevent corrosion. Making them wet is too much. Having them oily and wiping as best you can with a rag would likely be most close to the SAE intention.
DougM
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That's cool, I have been out of the biz and not keeping up with the newest gasket tech for a few years. It must be newer tech that allows for the gasket to "stretch" without delaminating.
The bolts work like springs, if not over stretched they can be used without issue. My concern in this case, is with the possible over twist, of having them bottomed in the hole and continuing to turn them. I would measure the length, if they pass carefully inspect for visual signs of twisting, then lay them on a flat surface with the heads off of the edge and roll them. If they roll straight, without wobble in the shaft area, their probably good to reuse, if one/some don’t I would replace the set.
Has anyone every mentioned you might be a bit on the anal side?
Don't feel bad, I use a torque wrench on everything that I can, car repairs, bike repairs,etc.. People think I am weird, but I just remind them if the manufacture didn't want it set to a certain tightness, they wouldn't have made a specification to use.
Yeah, I guess that sounds a bit anal unless I add that I merely brought them to the machine shop that worked on my heads (93 also) and paid the machinist shop rate to measure them while doing the other work. Otherwise it sounds like I actually sought out a machinist and drove them over just to have him measure them. Which I'd never take the time to do cause that WOULD be anal. Well, maybe. So am I off the anal list?? Snicker.....
DougM
DougM
- Thread starter
- #39
Well guys, she's done! I'm gonna post another thread with some thoughts for novice mechanics like me on doing this kind of job.
You all probably figured I used my old HG. Well, I did. I took off work after lunch and pulled the head like I was talking about.
I disconnected the exhaust and all the stuff connected to the intake, and got a long rod (actually was a water meter key), stabbed it through the lower hole on the front motor mount and lifted it off the head.
Padded the fenders really well and rested the rod on them. Then took a really big box end wrench and poled it through the rear mount and anchored that on the block, just south of the PS motor mount.
Suspended it there really well. The block was wet. some nasty black junk was on everything. Looked like carbon. The HG just lifted off and was wet with water. No sticking, no damage to it at all. Wiped it clean with a rag, and it looked like it was new.
Took my indoor/outdoor and sucked as much oil out of the head as I could. (Gonna hate cleaning that tomorrow)
Then, took an air compressor and fixed a length of oxygen tubing to it and blew out all the head bolt holes. Man, every one was filled with oil and water. After I got all the holes clean, I sprayed brake cleaner on the block and head side, and wiped them all up, then got the cylinders.
While I was waiting for everything to dry, I took the knock sensor I broke last time (rear), jb welded the female plastic part back on it, and swapped it into the front port, figuring it would be easier to get to once I lower the head back down if the jb weld doesn't hold. Hint, it's NOT easier to get to with the head lowered.
Then, took out the ECT sensor that I also broke and did a proper soldering job on it with 4 inch leads, soldered the ends of those to fit into the connecter, and put it back in.
Then, took the plug on the ECT gauge sender that I also broke and fixed it so it would work again.
After everything was clean, and my three sensors were working again, I put the HG back down, and started the bolting procedure again. This time, they all felt almost the same. I'm probably due for some new bolts by now.
About 10 pm, got water in the radiator, and fired her up. Mind you, I don't have a timing light, so I just guessed with the dizzy by putting it in the exact place it was before. It must have been pretty close, because it has some really great pep, and runs great. I'll borrow one tomorrow and time her correctly.
At idle, it seems just a hair high, and there's a still a slight stumble. I didn't have time to make sure the throttle cable isn't out of adjustment. I'll check that tomorrow. Also got an oil level light, and check engine light.
The girls and I took her for a test ride to Sonic for a late meal (they waited while I was working on the truck). After starting her back up, the oil light was gone.
Gonna have to check and see if one of my connector jobs failed or if the ECT sensor wires are backwards.
Otherwise, she's good, and I really appreciate the help, and the advice. Hope no one feels I didn't appreciate the recommendations. I try to get as much advice I can, and then make the best choice for me. The knowledge I've gained from my mistakes, and my back to back HG jobs have taught me a lot.
Still don't know what caused the pipes to get hot like that last time. But I really feel the head bolts were hydrolocked, and the head wasn't on well, cause everything was put back together exactly the same as last time, and she runs.
Anyway, it was a thrilling week, with almost every day in the engine bay. My hands look like they went through a shredder.
-Eddie
You all probably figured I used my old HG. Well, I did. I took off work after lunch and pulled the head like I was talking about.
I disconnected the exhaust and all the stuff connected to the intake, and got a long rod (actually was a water meter key), stabbed it through the lower hole on the front motor mount and lifted it off the head.
Padded the fenders really well and rested the rod on them. Then took a really big box end wrench and poled it through the rear mount and anchored that on the block, just south of the PS motor mount.
Suspended it there really well. The block was wet. some nasty black junk was on everything. Looked like carbon. The HG just lifted off and was wet with water. No sticking, no damage to it at all. Wiped it clean with a rag, and it looked like it was new.
Took my indoor/outdoor and sucked as much oil out of the head as I could. (Gonna hate cleaning that tomorrow)
Then, took an air compressor and fixed a length of oxygen tubing to it and blew out all the head bolt holes. Man, every one was filled with oil and water. After I got all the holes clean, I sprayed brake cleaner on the block and head side, and wiped them all up, then got the cylinders.
While I was waiting for everything to dry, I took the knock sensor I broke last time (rear), jb welded the female plastic part back on it, and swapped it into the front port, figuring it would be easier to get to once I lower the head back down if the jb weld doesn't hold. Hint, it's NOT easier to get to with the head lowered.
Then, took out the ECT sensor that I also broke and did a proper soldering job on it with 4 inch leads, soldered the ends of those to fit into the connecter, and put it back in.
Then, took the plug on the ECT gauge sender that I also broke and fixed it so it would work again.
After everything was clean, and my three sensors were working again, I put the HG back down, and started the bolting procedure again. This time, they all felt almost the same.
I'm probably due for some new bolts by now. About 10 pm, got water in the radiator, and fired her up. Mind you, I don't have a timing light, so I just guessed with the dizzy by putting it in the exact place it was before. It must have been pretty close, because it has some really great pep, and runs great. I'll borrow one tomorrow and time her correctly.
At idle, it seems just a hair high, and there's a still a slight stumble. I didn't have time to make sure the throttle cable isn't out of adjustment. I'll check that tomorrow. Also got an oil level light, and check engine light.
The girls and I took her for a test ride to Sonic for a late meal (they waited while I was working on the truck). After starting her back up, the oil light was gone.
Gonna have to check and see if one of my connector jobs failed or if the ECT sensor wires are backwards.
Otherwise, she's good, and I really appreciate the help, and the advice. Hope no one feels I didn't appreciate the recommendations. I try to get as much advice I can, and then make the best choice for me. The knowledge I've gained from my mistakes, and my back to back HG jobs have taught me a lot.
Still don't know what caused the pipes to get hot like that last time. But I really feel the head bolts were hydrolocked, and the head wasn't on well, cause everything was put back together exactly the same as last time, and she runs.
Anyway, it was a thrilling week, with almost every day in the engine bay. My hands look like they went through a shredder.
-Eddie
Congrats Eddie and I hope everything continues to look good
Talk about jumping up the
scale in short order
Talk about jumping up the
scale in short order 
