Help needed with A/T tire decision.. (1 Viewer)

[TeCKis300]

Casually researching tires as I may upsize to 35x12.5s before the end of the year.

Came across these nuggets. Always great to hear from insiders. Joe Bacal particularly as he was a development test driver for the just released Toyo AT3s. Found this in his comments.

Puts me right back between the ATW3s and AT3s. The Falken having an advantage in ride comfort while maintaining an edge in steering feel really speaks to me. If the Toyos can edge it out on noise, that may sway me back.

JOE BACAL
3 weeks ago
Honestly, they both performed really well going back and fourth during our testing. The Falken IMO out performed the Toyo AT3 in more categories if you compare them directly between one another. Here are a few areas I thought I would share.
WET- Equal
STEERING FEEL- Falken Toyo
DRY HANDLING - Equal
RIDE COMFORT- Falken Toyo
OFF-ROAD RALLY- (hard pack dirt) Equal

JOE BACAL
2 weeks ago
@Icutmetal Great options for sure! OK, as for the ATX General, I actually started testing that tire for General after I finished development on the X3 MT. During my testing of the ATX, they pulled me off the project since my main General contact had transferred to Germany, so I never finished and haven't tested the final product. I do remember that they were pretty good up until that point. As for the K02 , Toyo AT3 and Falken AT3W go, from what you plan to do with it I would not go BFG. They were not ideal in the snow and the ride comfort was really firm! Controlability was also an issue .... The Falken AT3W is a fantastic tire and one of my all time favorites, but snow performance was below the new Toyo AT3. I might go with the Falken 1st but it sounds like you want low road noise and good snow performance so it looks like the Toyo did better after checking my data that I am looking at for you in those specific areas....both great choices!

 

[grinchy]

Casually researching tires as I may upsize to 35x12.5s

I know how this story ends . . .

 

[04UZJ100]

I really wish the C-sidewall KO2 was offered in more sizes.

Anyone have direct comparison between KO2/Falken/Cooper/Toyo AT3 that can comment? How does the stock LC suspension handle a C or E rated tire?

 

[Madtiger]

I really wish the C-sidewall KO2 was offered in more sizes.

Anyone have direct comparison between KO2/Falken/Cooper/Toyo AT3 that can comment? How does the stock LC suspension handle a C or E rated tire?

There is always the stock sized KO2 in Load Range D....

I would check the load rating on any LT-C because our LC is a heavy pig.......and esp if you have armor on.

Personally, i cannot find fault with KO2...great tire! Peace of mind strength...pretty darn quiet in highway.

 

[04UZJ100]

There is always the stock sized KO2 in Load Range D....

I would check the load rating on any LT-C because our LC is a heavy pig.......and esp if you have armor on.

Personally, i cannot find fault with KO2...great tire! Peace of mind strength...pretty darn quiet in highway.

Agreed. I went 110k on a set of the originals and have 60k on the E set on my 4Runner. They are getting a little noisy and are quite stiff, though.

 

[LBridges]

I really wish the C-sidewall KO2 was offered in more sizes.

Anyone have direct comparison between KO2/Falken/Cooper/Toyo AT3 that can comment? How does the stock LC suspension handle a C or E rated tire?

No direct comparison experience. But some with C-rated KO2s.

With 9K miles on the 2017 OEM tires/wheels, I put on C-rated 285/70R17s BFG KO2s mounted on Rock Warriors. The suspension didn't seem to notice the difference. Really not even much change in compliance with road defects (minor potholes, etc.). However, that was probably because the combo of RWs and a C-rated tire ended up about the same weight as the OEM take-offs.
Noise for the new KO2s was lower than OEM on some road surfaces, louder on others (but not a lot for either case). By the time they had 25K miles on them I started getting complaints. My wife likes to read when we're out on the road and with the radio low, the noise was definitely growing louder on all surfaces. I had no problem with it, just turn the radio up a bit, but she wanted them off unless we were traveling to someplace we would likely need them.

 

[Toyoland66]

There is always the stock sized KO2 in Load Range D....

I would check the load rating on any LT-C because our LC is a heavy pig.......and esp if you have armor on.

Personally, i cannot find fault with KO2...great tire! Peace of mind strength...pretty darn quiet in highway.

According to discount tire direct the stock size D load KO2 weigh 54 lb

https://www.discounttiredirect.com/buy-tires/bfgoodrich-all-terrain-t-a-ko2/p/32071

285/65 AT3 weigh 55 lb

https://www.discounttiredirect.com/buy-tires/toyo-tire-open-country-a-t-iii/p/88414

285/65 Falkens are 65 lb

https://www.discounttiredirect.com/buy-tires/falken-wildpeak-a-t3w/p/26814

285/65 Ridge grapplers weigh 60 lb

https://www.discounttiredirect.com/buy-tires/nitto-ridge-grappler/p/30619

IME tire weight has the biggest impact on performance and fuel economy

 

[TLC2013]

According to discount tire direct the stock size D load KO2 weigh 54 lb

https://www.discounttiredirect.com/buy-tires/bfgoodrich-all-terrain-t-a-ko2/p/32071

285/65 AT3 weigh 55 lb

https://www.discounttiredirect.com/buy-tires/toyo-tire-open-country-a-t-iii/p/88414

285/65 Falkens are 65 lb

https://www.discounttiredirect.com/buy-tires/falken-wildpeak-a-t3w/p/26814

285/65 Ridge grapplers weigh 60 lb

https://www.discounttiredirect.com/buy-tires/nitto-ridge-grappler/p/30619

IME tire weight has the biggest impact on performance and fuel economy

Good info here, thanks for the data. I knew the falcons were heavy, but I am shocked that they are 10 pounds heavier then the average 285/65r18 all terrain.

I am running the general grabber atx in this size and am very happy with how they perform, E rated and weighs 56 pounds per discount tires.

 

[SpenserAK]

Casually researching tires as I may upsize to 35x12.5s before the end of the year.

Came across these nuggets. Always great to hear from insiders. Joe Bacal particularly as he was a development test driver for the just released Toyo AT3s. Found this in his comments.

Puts me right back between the ATW3s and AT3s. The Falken having an advantage in ride comfort while maintaining an edge in steering feel really speaks to me. If the Toyos can edge it out on noise, that may sway me back.

Wow, I have been stuck on two other tires for days and although I had looked at the Toyo a little, it missed me. His thorough feedback (I went through the YouTube comments) particularly about winter performance were killer to come across. Thanks for sharing. AT3 is maybe topping my list based on his feedback in comparison to tires I’ve experienced. Going to wait for his response to my comment, but it sounds like it’s right on par with AT3W winter performance without the additional weight that I really don’t want to add. Just slightly cheaper in my case too (315s), will cover most of installation at least.

Pardon my story time: I drove a first gen tundra down to Bend OR a few years ago, to pick up a custom cargo trailer I ordered to convert to a micro home/camper. Drive is about 2200 miles each way. I drove unloaded through the Yukon in early winter on stock size Toyo AT2s that probably needed replacing, but weren’t bald. Had a blizzard through a pass on the Cassiar hwy, and long miles in frigid temps on slick roads in the middle of nowhere. I love the Yukon and northern BC. Did totally fine and barely touched 4wd. Only the pass was dicey around a couple curves, but I‘m a pretty experienced winter driver. On the way back I towed the empty trailer (not heavy, maybe 1500 or so), had a full day on old slick snow roads, and the next day was half heavy slush and later a full on blizzard for 200 miles with snow piling up, Yukon again where there’s nothing around for hours. Came down the white pass into Skagway with heavy snow & deep drifts, easy 8-10 unplowed inches the last hour or so. With the tongue weight - about the equivalent of an average person standing on the bumper - I don’t remember that I really used 4wd. It never felt sketchy, though I’m certainly not saying it was the safer decision of the two. All that to say, if the old ones that needed to be replaced did well enough for me in conditions like that, the new AT3 has to blow them away.

The one thing that happened was a very small puncture between tread, when I was going full speed through scattered loose gravel and sharp little red rocks for a couple hours, but I luckily caught it early when I got out to take photos... I quick used nasty fix-a-flat and had just over 20 psi for a few hours before I made it to Watson Lake, where the gentlemen at the one auto shop around helped me patch it from the inside. Those tires stayed on over 3 more years until the tundra got KO2s (borrowed truck)

I also scored 5 minutes with a male/female pair of lynx the next day, who casually hung out on the side of the road, a ways outside Teslin. One of my top favorite photos I’ve taken. Damn, that was a fun trip... sorry for having a moment here, hah.

They appeared to be married

And the rig of course

Bison as the sun set, 1.5 hours from Watson lake with a punctured tire

 

[TeCKis300]

Forget tires... those pictures, wow!

I have Toyo AT3s on order. May be able to provide feedback in the next few months. Truly enjoyed the Falkens and I still don't have full confidence these may be better, but different.

 

[SpenserAK]

Haha, I'm glad they were appreciated. I may have stayed up too late last night.

Got an interesting response from Joe regarding the Falkens... I think a lot of their fans will be bummed to hear it, granted who knows what the ongoing experience will be. Specifically, I had emphasized my need for good snow/winter performance for the harsh coastal weather in southeast AK, very similar to coastal BC for those familiar.

"Well, first I have to say the 80 is a sweet 4WD! So as for snow performance, like I said in my comments, the AT3 Toyo and Wildpeak both scored well and at the top of the list. However, after recently finding out that Falken seemed to have made a running production compound change, the overall performance went way down. I would pass on the Falken. The Toyo did great in snow testing, but the temps we tested were in the teens and not below. If you experience -20 etc. I don't know how much better or worse the AT3 Toyo will perform. I really do like how linear this tire is in the snow for smooth slow, confident transitions during lane changes. I have also heard that people who have purchased the Toyo are seeing slightly better MPG. This tire has some of the best "run-out" balance numbers compared to other competitors. The Toyo products use very little weight for balancing which is very noticeable when it comes to vibration. I think you will like the Toyo Open Country AT3 LT on your 80 much more over the Goodyear that is for sure......"

So, AT3 it is for me. I'm sure I would have liked the grabber ATX, but feel drawn to these and I know I can't go wrong between the two.

 

[TeCKis300]

^Yup, saw those comments too, which drove me to the AT3s for my latest purchase. I likely would have stayed with the Falkens if the compound change didn't happen. They were that good of a tire, and incrementally more capable and aggressive than the AT3s. At least the last version was.

It's rare to find such candid comments from a legitimate source to be able to compare and contrast tires on individual parameters from controlled testing. Much of these specifics will still be buried in the comments. I noticed Joe Bacal took down several videos that gave more insight and commentary on other benchmark tires. Glad I copied some of them to this thread.

 

[Madtiger]

Like i said a while back, if AT3 has no fatal defect, the fact that it is much lighter in weight is huge for our gas guzzling and so-so handling LC200.

 

[SpenserAK]

Just ordered my set… excited to get fresh rubber and a great tire for my needs (in theory!)

 

[johnny1123]

Forget tires... those pictures, wow!

I have Toyo AT3s on order. May be able to provide feedback in the next few months. Truly enjoyed the Falkens and I still don't have full confidence these may be better, but different.

Now that you have some miles on the Toyo AT3’s how are they noise wise. I am going to be looking for a nice tire with good off road capability, snow capability but would prefer something on the quieter end of the spectrum. I have heard good things about these tires but wanted info from a fellow cruiser owner.

 

[TeCKis300]

Now that you have some miles on the Toyo AT3’s how are they noise wise. I am going to be looking for a nice tire with good off road capability, snow capability but would prefer something on the quieter end of the spectrum. I have heard good things about these tires but wanted info from a fellow cruiser owner.

Good timing as I just went on an long weekend trip. It's taken awhile to gather a spectrum of impressions with this covid business. Caveat my comments against my previous Falken AT3Ws, with a big change from 33s to 35s, and part of it has been trying to differentiate what is related to tire size and what are actual qualities of the tire. Also understand that my impressions for the Toyo's are of the most aggressive variety - Floatation 35x12.5s - which are even more aggressive in tread than the more typical LT sizes most people will run.

IMO, the Toyo's and Falken's are current crème of the crop in the AT tire segment, with the advantage of technology, being some of the most modern tires with Toyo's just released in 2020. Breadth of consistently high performance across all qualities, without any notable gaps, i.e. all terrain, is their forte. I continue to hold the Falken's in very high regard, and perhaps like that tire more for its added aggressiveness over the Toyo. As an early adopter of the Falken's and an advocate based on its performance, I would say my impressions were shared by the majority as that tire became more widely adopted.

Onto the review of the Toyo's

Noise - There is low level noise as expected with just about any A/T tire. It's about the volume of wind noise. Soft, unobtrusive, and in a low tone even on hard concrete pavements. Comparable to the Falken's which themselves were mild and very acceptable. Interestingly, the AT3s are a tad louder in middling speeds, while getting quieter at high freeway 70-85mph speeds, compared to the Falken's that go up in volume with speed. Different noise optimization perhaps, but I like this quality of the Toyo's as it's the long highway drives at constant high speed where the reduced noise is even more appreciated. I give a very slight noise edge to the Toyo's, understanding that the Falken's were maybe more amazing as they had more aggressive tread.

Vibration and Harshness - Immediate impressions is that Toyo's roll like butter, even with large AT tread blocks. Not unlike a highway tread tire. Very little weight added to the wheel to balance which is what I was hoping for with XL size 35s. From my research, Toyo's are at the top of the heap for roundness and balance with their proprietary construction techniques and it proved out with my examples. Large, and very large tires can be hard to balance, particularly with proportionately smaller wheels as the added wheel weights at the rim position only influence so much imbalance at the tread. Toyo's also behave very well on highway expansion joints and bumps with minimal shock translated, though that may be a function of how large these tires are, so my comments on harshness may be biased. Still, research shows vibration and harshness of these tires at the upper end of the competitive set.

Wet and Rain - Wow. Just drove through the first major rain of the season in SoCal and it was a proper rare deluge of cats and dogs. Wiper on max was not enough to keep large heavy drops off the windshield. These Toyo's just plowed through heavy rain and water at full highway speeds 70-85mph, without a care in the world. Just like the Falken's really. Where the Toyo's also stood out was the ability to maintain a high level of traction and grip on wet surfaces on mountain roads, with surprisingly progressive breakaway characteristics. Rain handling is exceptional.

Snow - I went to seek snow up at 4,500 ft, but never found it as the rain was too heavy and was just not yet cold enough. Research of professional impressions show these to be class leading.

Braking - I had the unfortunate experience to emergency brake on dry surface in a deer incident (in SoCal??), full on ABS braking from 60-15mph before punting the medium size deer. (cosmetic damage to grill and bumper but all has been since resolved and deer scampered away fine). With Tundra BBKs, braking was confidence inspiring, straight, and strong. No qualms about performance here.

Handling - This is where 35s may compromise some of my ability to form an impressions. Initial turn-in feels soft as a result of the XL sized tire with large sidewalls and relatively higher COG. I've compensated by going from 35 PSI RCTIP to 38 PSI. Handling is strong and resolute after considering the damping affect of larger tires. Towing a 8k lbs travel trailer, with 5k lbs on the rear axle, these tires are stable, quiet, with no unexpected heat with a non-contact thermometer. I do air them up to ~42 PSI as I've done with Falken's for that extra edge in stability and handling. I have no hesitation that this tire will meet expectations for handling. In general, 33s are the sweet spot for handling and all around capability in my mind. Research has this tire as a top performer in handling, wet and dry, with excellent stability and good non-resonant feedback.

Ride Quality - Butter. Definitely so with 35s. At RCTIP, sidewalls even feel a bit soft that I went up in pressure. Part of this maybe my tire sizing. Falken's had great ride quality as well. I've always said that wide buldged tire fitments can be an advantage to ride as the sidewall geometry can be more compliant vs squared fitments of 275/285s and it shows here abain with a great comfortable ride.

MPG - Not apples to apples of course. I'm on 35s, but also re-geared with 4.3s such that gearing is practically stock again. No real aero impacting mods other than the tires and minor 1" lift. About 250lbs added with the significant items of LRA aux tank and sliders. Pleasantly surprised I can still hit 15MPG on the freeway with middling aggressiveness and average 75 MPH speeds. In easy driving, could probably touch 16+ MPG but I don't tend to drive like that.

Sidewall Lugs - Medium aggressiveness compared to other standouts on the market. These have milder side lugs compared to Falken AT3Ws or KO2s.

Rim Protector - No rim lip protectors. Compared to a descent ones found on the Falken's.

Off-road - Beast, but then again, what 35" wouldn't be? Airing down to 15PSI, provides huge footprints, traction, and floatation. One recent 100 miles off-road jaunt in Death Valley with flowing fast tracks, some parts with really harsh corrugations, no problem at all keeping a comfortable 40-50 mph with the family relaxed. Corning traction and breakaway were good and predictable. Sand, no issue again with great floatation and smoothing out of surfaces. I haven't seen the full spectrum of off-road surfaces yet, but it should be solid.

More Toyo AT3 research can be had here. Particularly in the comments where Joe provides candid responses.

 

[SpenserAK]

Agreed on all of the above. I’ve had mine in tons of rain (again, southeast AK is one of the wettest places around) as well as every kind of snow & winter road surface. Very happy with the choice. They’re confident and predictable, linear, etc. On my way up the mountain on Saturday, a young woman was stuck on a slope in a 1st gen Tacoma with lackluster tires. I towed her the remaining 5 miles up the mountain on roads that were quite slick, and they did great. They’ve been great & predictable on slippery descents as well... even when it’s straight black ice, they hold traction when the wheels are allowed to drive themselves. I can get them to break when I lock them up, but it’s a predictable & controlled brief slide, and they lock right back in as soon as I unlock the brakes.

I seem to get the most noticeable noise on a wet highway around 60, but as he said, it’s mild and I don’t notice unless I think about it. I haven’t been over 70 (our max speed limit here is 55) and it doesn’t seem to increase. They roll smooth at all speeds. I feel like my need for a DC front shaft is a little more obvious than with the louder duratracs they replaced, which covered up the occasional vibes a bit more. Naturally though, rolling 315 E-rated on an unloaded rig with J springs & stiff OME shocks, it’s harsh on hard bumps, but improved over the duratracs they replaced. I wouldn’t blame the tire, it’s a stiff suspension. Truthfully, I generally like that kind of ride.. as opposed to my girlfriends stock 4Runner that is buttery like a car.

I wish the sidewalls were a little more beefy looking, but for me that’s mostly an aesthetic.

I would absolutely buy them again and think they are one of the very top AT choices with aggressive tread.

 

[johnny1123]

Good timing as I just went on an long weekend trip. It's taken awhile to gather a spectrum of impressions with this covid business. Caveat my comments against my previous Falken AT3Ws, with a big change from 33s to 35s, and part of it has been trying to differentiate what is related to tire size and what are actual qualities of the tire. Also understand that my impressions for the Toyo's are of the most aggressive variety - Floatation 35x12.5s - which are even more aggressive in tread than the more typical LT sizes most people will run.

IMO, the Toyo's and Falken's are current crème of the crop in the AT tire segment, with the advantage of technology, being the most modern and recently released tires in that order. Breadth of consistently high performance across all qualities, without any notable gaps, is their forte. I continue to hold the Falken's in very high regard, and perhaps like that tire more for its added aggressiveness over the Toyo. As an early adopter of the Falken's and an advocate based on its impressive performance, I would say my impressions were shared by the majority as that tire became more widely adopted.

Onto the review of the Toyo's

Noise - There is low level noise as expected with just about any A/T tire. It's about the volume of wind noise. Soft, unobtrusive, and in a low tone even on hard concrete pavements. Comparable to the Falken's which themselves were mild and very acceptable. Interestingly, the AT3s are a tad louder in middling speeds, while getting quieter at high freeway 70-85mph speeds compared to the Falken's that go up in volume with speed. Different noise optimization perhaps, but I like this quality of the Toyo's as it's the long highway drives at constant high speed where the reduced noise is even more appreciated. I give a very slight noise edge to the Toyo's, understanding that the Falken's were maybe more amazing as they had more aggressive tread.

Vibration and Harshness - Immediate impressions is that Toyo's roll like butter, even with large AT tread blocks. Not unlike a highway tread tire. Very little weight added to the wheel to balance which is what I was hoping for with XL size 35s. From my research, Toyo's are at the top of the heap for roundness and balance with their proprietary construction techniques and it proved out with my examples. Large, and very large tires can be hard to balance, particularly with proportionately smaller wheels as the added wheel weights at the rim position only influence so much imbalance at the tread surface. Toyo's also behave very well on highway expansion joints and bumps with minimal shock translated, though that may be a function of how large these tires are, so my comments on harshness may be biased. Still, research shows vibration and harshness of these tires at the upper end of the competitive set.

Wet and Rain - Wow. Just drove through the first major rain of the season in SoCal and it was a proper deluge of cats and dogs. Wiper on max was not enough to keep large heavy drops off the windshield. These Toyo's just plowed through heavy rain and water at full highway speeds 70-85mph, without a care in the world. Just like the Falken's really. Where the Toyo's also stood out was the ability to maintain a high level of traction and grip on wet surfaces on mountain roads, with surprisingly progressive breakaway characteristics. Rain handling is exceptional.

View attachment 2564604

Snow - I went to seek snow up at 4,500 ft, but never found it as the rain was too heavy and was just not yet cold enough. Research of professional impressions show these to be class leading.

Braking - I had the unfortunate experience to emergency brake on dry surface in a deer incident (in SoCal??), full on ABS braking from 60-15mph before punting the medium size deer. (cosmetic damage to grill and bumper but all has been since resolved and deer scampered away fine). With Tundra BBKs, braking was confidence inspiring, straight, and strong. No qualms about performance here.

Handling - This is where 35s may compromise some of my ability to form an impressions. Initial turn-in feels soft as a result of the XL sized tire with large sidewalls and relatively higher COG. I've compensated by going from 35 PSI RCTIP to 38 PSI. Handling is strong and resolute after considering the damping affect of larger tires. Towing a 8k lbs travel trailer, with 5k lbs on the rear axle, these tires are stable, quiet, with no unexpected heat with a non-contact thermometer. I do air them up to ~42 PSI as I've done with Falken's for that extra edge in stability and handling. I have no hesitation that this tire will meet expectations for handling. In general, 33s are the sweet spot for handling and all around capability in my mind. Research has this tire as a top performer in handling, wet and dry, with excellent stability and good non-resonant feedback.

Ride Quality - Butter. Definitely so with 35s. At RCTIP, sidewalls even feel a bit soft that I went up in pressure. Part of this maybe my tire sizing. Falken's had great ride quality as well. I've always said that wide buldged tire fitments can be an advantage to ride as the sidewall geometry can be more compliant vs squared fitments of 275/285s and it shows here abain with a great comfortable ride.

MPG - Not apples to apples of course. I'm on 35s, but also re-geared with 4.3s such that gearing is practically stock again. No real aero impacting mods other than the tires and minor 1" lift. About 250lbs added with the significant items of LRA aux tank and sliders. Pleasantly surprised I can still hit 15MPG on the freeway with middling aggressiveness and average 75 MPH speeds. In easy driving, could probably touch 16+ MPG but I don't tend to drive like that.

Sidewall Lugs - Medium aggressiveness compared to other standouts on the market. These have milder side lugs compared to Falken AT3Ws or KO2s.

Rim Protector - No rim lip protectors. Compared to a descent ones found on the Falken's.

Off-road - Beast, but then again, what 35" wouldn't be? Airing down to 15PSI, provides huge footprints, traction, and floatation. One recent 100 miles off-road jaunt in Death Valley with flowing fast tracks, some parts with really harsh corrugations, no problem at all keeping a comfortable 40-50 mph with the family relaxed. Corning traction and breakaway were good and predictable. Sand, no issue again with great floatation and smoothing out of surfaces. I haven't seen the full spectrum of off-road surfaces yet, but it should be solid.

View attachment 2564638

More Toyo AT3 research can be had here. Particularly in the comments where Joe provides candid responses.

This is exactly the information that many of us are looking for on these tires. I appreciate you taking the time to do such a thourough response/review!

 

[GDcrusier]

Have had my toyo AT3s for about 3 months now here in Colorado. Love them. Have always had BFG AT but my LC200 came with Nitto Terra Grapplers. After burning those off gave the TOYOs a try and absolutely love them.

 

[SpenserAK]

Another winter on the 315 Toyo AT3. Recently swapped in new wheels and just checked tire pressure & tread wear. I’ve been rocking about 33 psi cold, about 35 warm. Just hit 15k miles on them and they’re barely shy of 15/32 on all 4, all-around, out of the original ~16/32. So, so far, perfectly even wear and only worn 1.5/32 (max) after 15k miles. Should get a long life out of them at this rate. Still super happy with them & still the tire I’d choose if I had to do it again, for my use.