Help: Need a survey of LX470 owners having any engine noises upon cold starting

[Toylexmods]

Shady,

Thanks, we use our LX much the way you do. Wifes DD, trips and vacations. We have owned several Lexus vehicles and never any issue. LS400s have been a dream....SC400 other than some early kinks....perfect car. And yes, other than the knock the LX is perfect.

Thanks and my list is growing.

 

[Toylexmods]

JJ,

No, I have not talked to the SM about this yet. I decided to call Lexus Customer Service to get things documented. After the run around the block with LCS....I have a call back from a supervisor. I will ask to meet with the regional rep on the next visit.

Selling Certified dealer is out of the picture. We moved.

Also, I have personally serviced 90% of all this trucks maint. We lived up in Vail Colorado and the nearest Lexus dealer was a 3+ hour drive in bad weather. So, I did everything and used only Toyota parts. We have only owned Toyotas for 20+ years.

I drive a Certified 2000LS, my wife drives this LX and I have a mint 92 SC400 for sale that used to be my daily driver. This just gives me a bad feeling towards Lexus. I will gather the needed documentation and come to the table.

 

[tabraha]

ToyLex, here's my info for the "survey": 99LX w/ 115k miles. No noises on startup, run syn oil in it since 75k miles. It's been below 20deg F the last several mornings and no cold start noises.

Remember, mostly complaints will be registered in a survey on the web typically while content people are quiet.

I think what you need is some empirical data to help your cause. Measure engine bay dB on a new LX at startup and measure dB on yours. You should see a spike at a certain tonal range related to the piston slap. Also, perhaps a UOA should show some increased wear metals from startup wear. This engine has fantastic wear numbers so there should be a noticeable difference in yours and a typical healthy 4.7L V8.

Tad

 

[Toylexmods]

Tad,

Thanks for the reply. Lexus will not be happy with my data.....nor, am I happy with a knocking engine. I cant believe Lexus is taking this road with the problem. Sure, you can expect Chevy or Dodge to take the road of ignorance but come on.

Keep the reports coming and thanks to everyone.

Dave

 

[Pitbull]

ToyLex, here's my info for the "survey": 99LX w/ 115k miles. No noises on startup, run syn oil in it since 75k miles. It's been below 20deg F the last several mornings and no cold start noises.

Remember, mostly complaints will be registered in a survey on the web typically while content people are quiet.

I think what you need is some empirical data to help your cause. Measure engine bay dB on a new LX at startup and measure dB on yours. You should see a spike at a certain tonal range related to the piston slap. Also, perhaps a UOA should show some increased wear metals from startup wear. This engine has fantastic wear numbers so there should be a noticeable difference in yours and a typical healthy 4.7L V8.

Tad

Tad, a Tundra owner on the TundraSolutions website that has the piston slap on start up has done oil analysis and the results show no problems or unusual wear. Several owners that have the Slap used synthetic oil since new and others used dino. Some of the owners have well over 100K miles on their 4.7V8's with no performance problems other then the diesel sound at startup at below 40 degree weather. Based on the number of V8 owners on TundraSolutions the number with the problem is very very small and Dave is the only LX/LC owner that has ever reported having this problem on any of the LX/LC sites I have surveyed. Dave you might go to the dealer and have them do an oil analysis and make a deal with them that if it comes back with any negative results they will rebuild your engine. If it comes back OK then you just have noise on startup that is not causing any damage or long term dependablity problems.

 

[tabraha]

Wow, you would think with piston slap and parts knocking around some wear metals would show! Dave, best of luck and keep us informed on what happens.

 

[Toylexmods]

Thanks for the feedback guys,

In general its more the principal of the thing. If Lexus would have taken the time of day to properly address this problem when they realized how upset I was...things could have been much different.

By properly address.....I mean fully explore any and all possibilities that this noise is not a rod bearing, main bearing, cracked piston, worn lifter, stuck injector....ect, ect. But, to have a song and dance with the Lexus Customer Service crew is an absolute joke. You can never talk to the same person twice, they will not return calls, they rely on purely subjective over the phone diagnostics, the list goes on and on. Further, Lexus has stated that the dealer will not look at this condition again because it is normal. What! Your kidding right? After some subjective conclusions with no diagnostics you make this determination over the phone. We got a winner here....exactly what Chevy is doing with the knocking GM engines. Chevy will not look at or write up any work order on any paper for any knocking complaint. Do you really want this for a car company? I dont.

Bottom line, the techs at the dealer had the same word for word explination that Chevy was and is giving all of its owners. Carbon build up, change the oil weight, normal condition. And I could tell when I was being BS'ed the techs know and you can tell it in the voice. Ditto for the Lexus Customer Service crew....same song and dance like its written out on a bulletin.

As for the Tundra crew. I dont know that this is the same problem. The Tundras seem to have a piston noise right from the get go...or very early on. That is nowhere near the situation I have. It took 4 years and 60k miles to start hearing the noise and once it started...it has gotten progressively worse and worse at a faster rate. That is my problem...this noise is getting worse and worse. That means wear and clearance is getting more and more. Its not rocket science guys.

To hide behind the phone and say its normal just like the Tundra is very poor excuse. Read up on what Chevy has done with this situation....I think Toyota/Lexus is taking the same road. It will bite them in the end. The Lexus Customer Service person said in not so many a word that.....The only way we "Lexus" would do anything about this engine is if the piston exploded and came out the side of the block. Oh fun, lets see how long that takes.

Ford on the otherhand has replaced engines and redesigned the new engines to cure the noise and it has worked. Cheers to Ford.

 

[jjbodean1970]

what weight oil are you running?

 

[Toylexmods]

JJ,

10/30 for the most part and 5/30 if the weather gets extreme below 0 temps. Quaker State in all my cars/trucks/racecar/streetperformance car and never had a problem. Always used the Japan made Toyota oil filter in all my cars....even when Lexus USA/Toyota USA went with a cheaper alternative made in Malasya or something. I ordered a case of the Japan made filters for all our cars. Yes, call me nuts or something...but, Japan made cars deserve and were designed for Japan made parts.

Piston clearance or too much of will never be cured by a change between 5 or 10w oil. IMHO....nor will any decarbon, or carbon wash. If there is too much carbon, its because of the blowby from excessive piston clearance and oil up in the combustion chamber.

BTW, you have a LC.....it gets to 30-50 down there in Mobile, does your engine knock on startup?

 

[mabrodis]

Just curious here, but do you actually know it's a piston slap issue? Have others actually pulled their engines apart and determined that was the problem (wear signs, etc). I'm curious because if a cylinder was not firing for example, I think that could sound like a piston slap possibly, or a leaky injector (which fixes itself when it gets warm, unlikely I'll admit but never know). If wear was found then a UOA should show that, if the UOA looks good then probably nothing even to see if you pulled it apart.

Just FYI, my sister has a '99 LC, lives in Ohio, she's started it many times below zero (no garage, so vehicle outside) with no knocking of any sort, purrs like a kitten.

Good Luck, I too am surprised in the route Lexus is taking. Always remember the trouble-shooter guys, like Tom Martino and some other ones, several of the Denver news stations have guys that do only that, just find problems and make companies look bad. Certainly can't hurt to have them make some calls.

Good Luck!

 

[Toylexmods]

Mabrodis,

Exactly, I am being lumped into the whole Tundra syndrome of the piston slap without any diagnostic evaluation. This is not a Tundra engine, a Tundra was not available in 99 and nobody has done any sort of diagnostic test on our LX.

Lexus is taking the Monkey with blinders attitude with our LX470 and it does not sit well with me. Lexus will not write up nor evaluate this noise on our LX470. The "normal piston slap had been plastered on it and the dealer will not look at it." It wont be long before I plaster engine knock stickers all over the truck and park it out front of every mall in this state.

Like my post above states....Lexus could have done a much better job at communication and fully researched and diagnosed this condition before slapping the piston label on it and closing the door to any other investigation from the dealer. Wooo, that really makes me mad. It sounds just like Chevorlet......its been 18 years since I owned a Chevy and actually worked for Chevy. I left them and never owned another Chevy again. Will it come to that with Lexus? I dont know...we currently own 3 and just handed down a LS400 to our daughter. Lexus would be losing a good customer, we would keep what we have and run them in the ground and not buy another Lexus.

 

[r3run33]

hey toyle i forgot to add something a little while back i had a very bad experience with a lexus dealership in tampa bay i live in jersey but often go to tampa the lx is actually from that dealership and they were terrible i did have to go to the customer service and once that happened all the problems were fixed mine was mostly the dealership dragging their feet and not doing the work. the lexus one in cherry hill is a different story no problems so far just keep at them. ido remeber all the stress from dealing with jeep/chrysler but we did win.

 

[Toylexmods]

Thanks r3,

At this point the response has been just amazing from Lexus. Any brand loyalty is long gone and its every man/woman to fight for whats right. I do not buy the slogan "Our cars and trucks are the most reliable out there and just keep driving it" statement.

I will gather facts and figures from any and all owners out there...test drive every LC100/LX on any used car lot, keep tabs on the current engine noise and keep everyone posted. For now, it looks like this is not a normal occurance out in the real world. I will keep on this until resolution.

If Lexus does not fix it. I will put a new engine in myself. Then pull the old engine down to inspect all the components. Its not rocket science here.

 

[Toylexmods]

r3,

Thanks again, I have been waiting 3 days for a supervisor at Lexus Customer Service to call me back. Funny.

Just an update....from owner reports all across the country....this knocking does not seem to be a normal condition on a LX470/LC100. At this point, my wife just says sell the truck. But, then we need to replace it with something else and spend more money. She would also rather drive our 00 LS400 than the truck. Aesthetics, comfort, engineering and safety are all reasons we buy LX/LC vehicles. When something like this happens and the resulting treatment from Lexus occurs....it leaves a bad taste. My wife does not want to drive the truck anymore. Further, she does not trust it to take vacations, family and haul the camper around.....the exact reason we need the vehicle. You now wonder....why take care of this vehicle? Why service it on time, why even clean it...just drive the wheels off it. But then, we are not people like that and I have never trashed a vehicle. Even my racecar/track cars have always been show quality.

I think it comes down to selling it and never buying another Lexus. Or, putting a new engine in myself and never buying another Lexus.

What can we all learn from this experience. Dont think any car manufacturer wont hide behind a rock when it means fixing a problem that will cost lots of money. Period.

Actually, Ford did have a similar problem and stepped up....paid, fixed, replaced any and every affected engine in the F150. Then proceeded to correct the piston design in future years. Cheers to Ford. Never thought I would say that.

=========================================================

hey toyle i forgot to add something a little while back i had a very bad experience with a lexus dealership in tampa bay i live in jersey but often go to tampa the lx is actually from that dealership and they were terrible i did have to go to the customer service and once that happened all the problems were fixed mine was mostly the dealership dragging their feet and not doing the work. the lexus one in cherry hill is a different story no problems so far just keep at them. ido remeber all the stress from dealing with jeep/chrysler but we did win.

 

[Pitbull]

Do the oil analysis and see if you are having any internal problems/damage. If you are show it to the dealer and your lawyer and see who blinks first.

 

[DMX84]

I'm curious because if a cylinder was not firing for example, I think that could sound like a piston slap possibly, or a leaky injector (which fixes itself when it gets warm, unlikely I'll admit but never know).

This is a prime example when a good data logger program would be helpful. The program I’m using in my car allows me to test various components, including the ability to turn on and off injectors for diagnostics. Can the Toyota scan tool do this? If it will than ask to barrow it over night (since they don’t want to use it ) and hook it in during startup. When you hear the noise, turn off/on the injectors to see if anything changes. On that note would fuel pressure have any thing do with this? Or possibly water in the injector freezing and not allowing gas to flow?
Hope this helps.
Vaya Con Dios
Dean

 

[Toylexmods]

Dean,

Oh, how I wish my Autronic standalone SMC were in this LX. Hell, I may start the proper diagnostic procedures myself on this truck. I have feedback from several members and owners with up and over 135k miles stating absolutely no knock on startup even in extreme conditions.

I also noticed you have a old VR4. Funny, I have owned several tuner/race cars in the past and kept one that was somewhat rare like your old car. I have one of the Celica GT4 alltracs from 88. Still in mint condition with 70k miles on it...fully tuned, suspension, brakes, engine, turbo...my special turbo 20+psi and 350hp on that little rocket. Oh, BTW my 17 year old Celica with all those upgrades does not now or ever has it knocked on startup. Or my 94 Supra twin turbo, 87 Supra turbo, 91 Supra turbo, 92 LS400, 94 LS400 up to and finally our 2000 LS400. Geez Lexus come on and get with the program. Your getting smeared with the power of the pen. 5 days and counting with no return call from the supervisor at Lexus Customer Service. It is actually comical.

 

[DMX84]

Your Celica sounds sweet. I would like to see some pictures of it!
Not may people now about the VR4 Galant, I love this car. Fast, fun, and reliable. Not to mention it embarrass allot of un-suspecting v8 mustangs! lol
I’m with you on diagnosing your vehicle. But it’s a real pisser when the dealer should be taking care of it. I had talked to a guy who had some data logging software on his supercharged 4 Runner. I wish I had gotten the site he was logging on to for information. I’m sure there is something out there perhaps www.pocketlogger.com can offer some help. I’m not sure if your car is OBD2 or not. I’ll admit I have not done much looking yet as I have my plate full with my GVR4. I’m currently trying to find out my mid and high fuel trims are not adjusting themselves. I’m installing an AFC, a newer version MAS (second generation), 660 cc’s injectors. I have a custom chip being burned to help compensate for all this new stuff. The AFC of course will give me fine tuning. Your Stand alone blows away all the piggyback system I’m using IMO. But this is just a hobby and I not trying to build the fastest car out there. But maybe someday!
When I’m done I’ll star looking into diagnostic/data logging tools for our Lexus/Toyota’s.
Dave, if you want any more information on these tools let me know. I can talk to the guy that burns the chips for theGVR4’s and ask if he has any leads to where one can get stuff for our application. I know he belongs to groups that discuss various chip burning capabilities.
I really hope you get this worked out. I sucks that you are having such a time with this. Maybe the New Year will bring good things your way.
Dean

 

[Toylexmods]

Dean,

Ping me off list, we can talk about your VR. How are you tracking tuning now? I always run stand alone A/F meters such as the Greddy or LM1 from Innovate Motorsport. Very inexpensive way to keep things safe. Yes, the SAFC works well on the DSMs. Ever think about a VPC/AFC combo?

Dataloggers, yeah it would be nice to have a OBDII Toyota tool but I can do just the same manually checking each cylinder for the knock. Its no big deal that Lexus is making this choice. I just choose to call them to the table and let others know what really happens behind the scenes. It amazed me at first...but when I researched this problem and found what Chevorlet was doing....it dawned on me. The wording and phrasing from Lexus was identical to what Chevorlet was telling its owners.

Right down to the fact that dealers will not even writeup and look at the condition. Now, how does that make you all feel? Yep.

 

[SWUtah]

Pistons rock as they cross TDC where the thrust load from the rod angularity shifts from one side to the other. This makes noise. Harmless, but it is the source of piston slap in most all situations.

To prevent this, pistons are designed with long, tapered, flexible skirts so that they can be fitted very tight in the bores when the bore and piston is cold. The taper of the skirt and flexibility of the skirt then prevents scuffing when the piston is hot. Also, the piston pin in OEM production pistons is always offset to one side....it is NOT in the middle of the piston. By offsetting the pin in the piston, artificial thrust load is created to control the piston "rocking" as it crosses over TDC.

Unfortunately, all of the above control techniques, common in past model engines to the extreme, create excess piston mass, cause friction and cost power and fuel economy. With the desire to build in as much power and free-revving capability and to improve fuel economy as much as possible thru friction reduction these design features are pushed in the other direction on modern engines.

Piston pin offset has been reduced over the years to a bare minimum today to reduce the thrust load generated and reduce friction. Pistons have been lightened up considerably by shortening the skirts. This creates less rotating/reciprocating mass which is good for power, free revving capability and fuel economy. Light weight pistons are great but the skirts, by necessity, are short making it hard to make them both strong and flexible and the shorter ckirts make them more prone to rocking.

Unfortunately, when the performance or fuel economy oriented pistons are run cold they are very prone to "slap" until they warm up to operating temperature.

The piston designers and development engineers are always treading the fine line between piston slap cold and friction and power/fuel economy loss when the engine is warm.

It is possible that you are hearing piston noise from an engine that is on the "high limit" for piston clearance so that it makes some noise cold. The good news is that the condition is harmless and that engine is probably a little more powerful (due to less friction) than a "quiet" counterpart. The bad news is that...it makes noise cold.