HELP! HJ45 Glow Plug Controller heating too fast (2 Viewers)

[RufusTheDufus]

I'm kinda surprised you're seeing 12v on the relay side of the controller.

battery -> some wire -> glow plug relay -> some (x) wire -> glow controller -> some wire -> busbar (y)

I just went out and measured the voltage at the (x) location on my BJ42 with a manual glow setup and I see 10v when activated. I don't have an engine in my HJ45 to test your exact setup.

I am also surprised that you are seeing 12v at the (y) location/busbar when it's not connected to any glow plugs. The glow controller is a resistor. It should drop the voltage. You should see less voltage at the busbar than you do on the input side of the glow relay. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[bj40green]

No, that's not gonna work. The initial current (run-in current) can be as high as 20 Amps and that will blow the protective fuse inside your multi meter.

 

[athensrep]

I'm kinda surprised you're seeing 12v on the relay side of the controller.

battery -> some wire -> glow plug relay -> some (x) wire -> glow controller -> some wire -> busbar (y)

I just went out and measured the voltage at the (x) location on my BJ42 with a manual glow setup and I see 10v when activated. I don't have an engine in my HJ45 to test your exact setup.

I am also surprised that you are seeing 12v at the (y) location/busbar when it's not connected to any glow plugs. The glow controller is a resistor. It should drop the voltage. You should see less voltage at the busbar than you do on the input side of the glow relay. It just doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, I know. I'd push this mustard paper weight off a cliff if I had one near me. Or at least bump start it.

 

[bj40green]

.....I am also surprised that you are seeing 12v at the (y) location/busbar when it's not connected to any glow plugs. The glow controller is a resistor. It should drop the voltage. You should see less voltage at the busbar than you do on the input side of the glow relay. It just doesn't make any sense.

Yes, the controller is a resistor, but when there is no current draw the voltage will be the same on both sides.
The more load (= the more plugs = the more current draw) the more the voltage will drop.

 

[lostmarbles]

I like Rufus's suggestion of the DC clip-on ammeter too. I managed to get a good one quite cheap direct from China. (The only problem was the manual was in Chinese but that wasn't any handicap because it was simple enough to use.)

Here's a U-tube video I did of my preheat system and how it operates (using this meter for the preheat current):



The way I see it, your HJ45 should draw 50% more current but have almost exactly the same busbar voltage and controller performance..

I can't see your block ground as being the culprit, but heck, we're clutching at straws now so what does it look like? (It needs to be in good nick to carry your 200+ amperes of starter motor current anyway.)

I've just PMed Jesper to see if he found a solution for his "controller heating too fast" problem.

I'm hoping maybe Jesper can maybe help us here.

BTW- Thanks for the recapping info. I think you did a good job on making that busbar and you're also doing a good job of trying to keep our suggestions appropriate/intelligent.

At the moment you're following our advice (and spending lots of $$$s and time) and we're getting you nowhere.

Sorry... I'll try and engage my feeble brainpower more on this in my mundane work job this afternoon/evening and maybe something will come to me...

 

[bj40green]

Where to start? Like Tom I'm out of idea's. Let's wait until we have a reply from Jesper.

In the meantime...... If you want to drive it.... go for the "Wilson Switch" set up.
Replace the glow plugs for the 10.5V type.
Jump/bypass the controller by moving the black/Yellow wire to the same terminal as the Black wire.
Push the switch, start counting and vroooooooom!

Rudi

 

[athensrep]

Well guys…thanks for the continued support and help on this little bugger of an issue. Rudi - I'm going to just hook the thing up for now (Wilson switch) and see if I can drive her around this afternoon. In the meantime, I'm going to keep at it.

In a moment of extreme weakness, I called a couple of specialty Crusier shops here and low-and-behold, no one *really* wants to touch it. Not really shocked on that response. Anyhow, If I can avoid that I will. After all, it forces me to figure this thing out the cheap way - with my very limited brain power.

 

[athensrep]

She cranked right up on the first turn. So, no controller for now.

I need a beer…

 

[bj40green]

She cranked right up on the first turn. So, no controller for now.

I need a beer…

You deserve it..... make it or

 

[lostmarbles]

Jesper replied with this to say. (I'm sure he won't mind me quoting him here in this thread):

Hi Tom

I have not done more to this "problem" other than accepting that it is glowing "fast". It really depends on how much light there is in the cabin. If I count the sec outside the workshop it docent look that "bad". It will turn red in 15-18 sec and really bright 20-25secs. But since it has no problems starting now with glowing 15-20 sec I am happy with it

Jesper

So it appears to me that his glow times are OK because "turning red in 15-18 seconds" corresponds with the FSM and mimics what mine does. His only problem appears to be an increased likelihood of "controller meltdown" in the event that someone continues glowing for too long.

And all I could think of yesterday at work was to enquire about the brand and model of glow plug you're using now (but this is unlikely to be relevant to your problem since, if I recall correctly, you were still getting rapid controller glowing even with 10.5V glow plugs fitted).

My thoughts were .... perhaps you have gone for a set of these "one-plug-does-all" types:

Here's the Land Cruiser models they are claimed (on Ebay) to fit. (I think yours is included here.):

Notice Etecno1 doesn't provide a voltage specification for these plugs. - I understand this is because they believe their plugs will perform well in Toyota Land Cruiser preheat systems regardless of whether Toyota specified 8.5V, 10.5V or whatever. (They will ... if I am interpreting their sales blurbs correctly ... glow well ... and fast ...despite such variations in supply voltage. And once glowing brightly, they will also drop their current demand automatically too.)

However, while they may be fine plugs for many preheat systems (and may well even be the ultimate for Wilson Switch, Fixed Delay, and perhaps some other preheat systems) ...I'm very doubtful they'll provide proper glow controller performance on any older cruiser that has "glow controller preheat". (I wonder if anyone here has tried them with a glow controller?)

But as I've already mentioned ... you still had super-fast glow times when you had other (10.5V) plugs installed. So this is probably all irrelevant and I'm back to scratching my head...

 

[athensrep]

Jesper replied with this to say. (I'm sure he won't mind me quoting him here in this thread):



So it appears to me that his glow times are OK because "turning red in 15-18 seconds" corresponds with the FSM and mimics what mine does. His only problem appears to be an increased likelihood of "controller meltdown" in the event that someone continues glowing for too long.

And all I could think of yesterday at work was to enquire about the brand and model of glow plug you're using now (but this is unlikely to be relevant to your problem since, if I recall correctly, you were still getting rapid controller glowing even with 10.5V glow plugs fitted).

My thoughts were .... perhaps you have gone for a set of these "one-plug-does-all" types:

View attachment 884422

Here's the Land Cruiser models they are claimed (on Ebay) to fit. (I think yours is included here.):
View attachment 884423
View attachment 884425

Notice Etecno1 doesn't provide a voltage specification for these plugs. - I understand this is because they believe their plugs will perform well in Toyota Land Cruiser preheat systems regardless of whether Toyota specified 8.5V, 10.5V or whatever. (They will ... if I am interpreting their sales blurbs correctly ... glow well ... and fast ...despite such variations in supply voltage. And once glowing brightly, they will also drop their current demand automatically too.)

However, while they may be fine plugs for many preheat systems (and may well even be the ultimate for Wilson Switch, Fixed Delay, and perhaps some other preheat systems) ...I'm very doubtful they'll provide proper glow controller performance on any older cruiser that has "glow controller preheat". (I wonder if anyone here has tried them with a glow controller?)

But as I've already mentioned ... you still had super-fast glow times when you had other (10.5V) plugs installed. So this is probably all irrelevant and I'm back to scratching my head...

Honestly, with the limited money and common sense I had in my younger years, I would have sprung for the cheaper, "no-name" brand of plugs. As I've learned over the few year (not much), it's better to buy the best you can afford. I sprung for the NGK 8.5v plugs. I can't remember offhand the model number (it's beer time), but I was basing it off literature and all of your kind suggestions. So, I'm scratching my head a bit more vigorously.

For now it cranks and runs like a champ. Sorry for me, the engine is dead tired as it smokes like a factory at idle out of the breather. That's for another day, right?

Cheers to all the kind and thoughtful suggestions. It is much appreciated.

 

[bj40green]

....... I'm back to scratching my head...

Me too, and here is what I think that happened.
1. The "old" controller didn't light up because of the 10.5V plugs that were fitted.
2. One day there was a short at the busbar and the "old" controller went up in smoke.
3. The new (HJ45) controller glowed much too fast with the (not correct) 10.5V plugs.
4. The new (HJ47) controller also glowed much too fast with both sets of plugs (8.5V and 10.5V plugs).
5. At present we're back at the Wilson switch set up and everything works fine with the 10.5V plugs.

I'm still convinced that the first replacement controller is a production error, being either the wrong coil inserted in the controller or build as a 24V controller and wrongly stamped with the 12V part number.
That coil in the new controller is made of thinner wire and has more twist than the "old" controller.
The same story goes for the new HJ47 enclosed controller. Electrically those controllers are the same. The only difference is the housing.

I've seen these production errors before, even with very respected branches in the electronics world and believe me, it's not easy to convince the spare part department that there is an error with one of their parts.

I'll give you the short version of one of these stories. I was working in the electronics retail business.
I ordered a spring for a tape recorder, I got a roller. After 3 weeks phoning and faxing I had 4 rollers instead of springs. I finally sent the tape recorder to the manufacturer and when it returned it was repaired with the text: Replaced spring. So I called their service department and asked about this spring and where they got it.
Answer: The part number was wrong, we received time and time again a roller so we took the correct spring out of new tape recorder. Problem solved.

In other words.... bring your Cruiser to the dealer and let them solve the problem because they are going to run into the same problem and have to solve it with Japan in the end. Unfortunately that is going to take some time and the outcome (for a 30+ year old Cruiser) may be not to your liking.

Rudi

 

[lostmarbles]

.... I sprung for the NGK 8.5v plugs....

For now it cranks and runs like a champ. Sorry for me, the engine is dead tired as it smokes like a factory at idle out of the breather. That's for another day, right?.............

Yeah... It's hard to point the finger at the Toyota parts system but I think I'm with Rudi in questioning the specs of the replacement HJ45 and HJ47 (12V 6-cylinder) controllers.. (What else have we left to cast suspicion on?)

Sorry to hear your engine's so worn.. I love getting old things running well. So many owners have discarded their old H-engines (in favour of more recent engines like the 2H). So the rarity of this engine, the challenge of reconditioning it, and the rewards of having it running well would keep me enthused about keeping this HJ45 as original as possible..

I can just imagine if it were mine. I'd be lifting the bonnet (errr. hood) and showing someone a beautifully-presented smooth-running engine (with lots of polished alloy and glossy black paint) that they've probably never seen before and will probably never see in any other vehicle again.

....

I'm still convinced that the first replacement controller is a production error, being either the wrong coil inserted in the controller or build as a 24V controller and wrongly stamped with the 12V part number.
That coil in the new controller is made of thinner wire and has more twist than the "old" controller.
The same story goes for the new HJ47 enclosed controller. Electrically those controllers are the same. The only difference is the housing.

I've seen these production errors before....

Didn't I read here that Athensrep managed to obtain controller wire and that his home-made coils still heated too fast? (Or did I imagine that? I'll read back in a minute....)

A thought just came to mind ... If he managed to get the correct type of wire (which I thought would be a MISSION in itself) and it glowed too fast then why not try and get some larger diameter wire of the same type and try experimenting again?

...
In other words.... bring your Cruiser to the dealer and let them solve the problem because they are going to run into the same problem and have to solve it with Japan in the end. Unfortunately that is going to take some time and the outcome (for a 30+ year old Cruiser) may be not to your liking.

Rudi

Hmmm. Having respect for the high level of training and experience of Toyota technicians when dealing with modern Toyotas (maybe even 20-year old ones) .... I still think it's highly unlikely these young whipper-snappers will have any idea what a glow controller is. (This vehicle is of course more than 30 years old.)

So in the highly unlikely event that a Toyota dealer/workshop takes up the challenge, their learning curve will surely ensure a negative customer experience.. (which I guess is what you're saying with "may not be to your liking") Rudi

 

[bj40green]

Hi Tom, yes that's what I meant with "may not be to your liking".
First of all you need an employee who is close to his pension age so knows about controllers. Those controllers disappeared in the early 90's so we have a 24 year time gap in his memory.
Second, the problem has to be brought up within the Toyota organisation. What I mean is that as an outsider confronting Toyota with a problem that you discovered is "not done" in the service world. Then they feel "attacked" so to speak.
You need that old timer mechanic who can put his weight in to bring the matter to attention higher up in the organisation. From here it goes two ways.
The commercial way.... solve the problem, don't care how you do it, take the part you need from another car if you need to.
The parts warehouse way.... why should we spent time on a 30+ years old part that is already out of production.

Anyway.... for now his Cruiser is on the road again.

Rudi

 

[lostmarbles]

I was going to ask for someone to post an image of their original HJ45 controller but just realised we have all the info we need already in this thread to point the finger at Toyota don't we?

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not your original 28550-47021 controller Athensrep?

And is this not the replacement?

And aren't the coils of vastly different appearance?

Edit (a day later): Not forgetting that we appear to simultaneously have the same situation with the coils in the new/replacement enclosed/later-model 12V 6 cyl controllers (28550-47040) fitted as original equipment to the HJ47 model.

 

[athensrep]

Correct on both accounts. That first controller is the original (probably to the truck by the looks of it) and the second image is from a Toyota dealer from Florida. Vastly different high temp wire.

The wire is was easy to get in the right gauge nichrome - a pottery supply store here in Atlanta. I tried a few different amount of loops and I would get a minimal amount of variation of heating times. I went from 3 seconds to 4.

You guys know; with a 30+ year old vehicle there is always something new to move on to. Now, it's trying to lower the crankcase pressure...other than that, it truly surprises me on how smooth and clock-like it runs. For now

 

[bj40green]

I've been looking/hunting/chasing for HJ controller info and found this thread from 2009: https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/i-...he-hard-starting-on-my-b-diesel.312042/page-2
In posts # 21 and #32 Mud member Herbs states that a HJ controller has 2 loops/turns and somewhere earlier in that thread Mud member Rockcrawler explains about the wire size and loops for a BJ controller.

So if Herbs is right and the picture from Athensrep matches this...........................
You fill in the blanks.
Maybe Athensrep can take another picture but so that we can have a look at the turns/loops/twists
Also a picture of both controllers next to each other where we can see the Nippon Denso and Toyota part numbers.


Rudi

 

[RufusTheDufus]

I have an HJ45 with the stock/original controller in the dash. (General market, originally sold in AU, not JDM) I'll try to pull it tomorrow to snap a photo.

 

[lostmarbles]

I'm sorry but I can't get your "glowing too fast problem" out of my mind Athensrep.

And it has just become apparent to me that Jesper DOESN'T have the same problem as you do after all.

He was supplied the correct controller by his Toyota supplier (as I've just found by looking at his thread) whereas it is just you that has been sold one with finer wire and too many turns of it.

These pics prove my point:

Your original one (burnt out):

Your replacement:

Jesper's replacement:

PS. In fact, you must have been sold TWO incorrect controllers if the HJ47 controller was also supplied to you with lots of turns of fine wire.

Which makes me wonder ... Was the mistake from Toyota or were these sourced elsewhere (placing the blame elsewhere).

 

[bj40green]

From what I can see is that your old one is made of much thicker wire and less winding's than your new one. Strange.....

Tom, that's exactly what I said in post 39.
I'm glad that we now have the confirmation that a HJ45/(47) controller has only 2 loops.

Rudi