Helicoil vs Time-sert and RW wheels

[USMCVader]

So this is likely just an indicator that I might have some OCD tendencies, but I bought five used RWs and my worldview will not let me use them without taking the rings off, cleaning them up etc. With five wheels, and twelve bolts per ring, I started with 60 bolts to loosen and remove. Penetrating oils, ATF/acetone, heat and beat, etc were all used with some successes, and so far I have had over 30 T-30 torx bits fail...but I still have about 17 bolts to go, and two more with broken off heads. With the two snapped bolt heads I have reached the point where I am looking at other options, with the prevailing idea being to drill out the remaining bolts and reestablish threads with helicoils or Time-serts. However, while I knew they existed, I have no personal experience with them and I have some concerns with ending up with five pounds of weight on a wheel to get it balanced, issues with threads spinning in holes, etc. After scouring the internet, I remembered that the members of this forum are awesome, and most have far more experience than I do, and I figured I would simply ask for opinions on thread inserts as a way to get these wheels back in action? Suggestions for good techniques and lessons learned are certainly welcome too!

 

[Ratchey]

I have used Helicoil before with success, just not on wheels. But it should work fine. Super simple to use and it won't really add weight as it is only replacing the metal you are drilling out.

Sucks about the wheels. I was able to remove the bolts out of 8 wheels only losing 2 bolts and that was because they had been swapped with allen head and I didn't notice until I had stripped them out with the torx. Was able to carefully drill out the center and extract with a screw extractor.

 

[MikeVpdx503]

Interesting that so many of your torx bits failed. When i had the same issue, the bit would round out the bolt head way before the torx bit had issues. I only snapped one bit when I probably applied too much heat then hit it with a bit. Those buggers when stuck are a a pain and I have since passed on RWs when I couldn’t loosen the rings. Only strategy I can suggest for those that are stuck is to is to carefully drill off the head of the bolt leaving as much of the shaft as you can then using pliers to grab the little bit of shaft left once the ring is off and try to twist out the bolt thread. I thought about helicoils, but seemed like a last resort if all else failed to effectively extract the bolt.

 

[lx200inAR]

I’m in exact same situation with having just bought 5 RWs and wanting to de-ring clean and touch up. I went through every bit I had and only got 10 bolts out first. Then ordered the hardened Wihas and got my first ring off. Thought I was golden, patted myself on the back and went on. The following weekend I start on the 2nd wheel.. only get 8 bolts out before I break 2 Wiha bits.. with the tip of the bits permanently wedged into the bolt head. I ordered 2 more Wiha bits and get 2 more bolts out of that wheel. Move on to 3rd wheel. Manage to only get 9 bolts out before mangling my next 2 bits. Then I decided this was a fools errand and put all my bolts back in and am done trying to get rings off. With any luck my wheels will be dirty all the time anyways.

 

[nwfl4runner]

I had a few stuck and eventually took it to a machine shop to drill them out - they were able to save the threads. I’d recommend that route before helicoils. A dab of loctite on stainless going into aluminum is a crime. Antiseize the hell out of them when you reinistall.

 

[grinchy]

I guess the Window on rock warriors is closing. Hopefully the 300 has a good 17” forged option somewhere in the world we can import.

 

[Markuson]

So this is likely just an indicator that I might have some OCD tendencies, but I bought five used RWs and my worldview will not let me use them without taking the rings off, cleaning them up etc. With five wheels, and twelve bolts per ring, I started with 60 bolts to loosen and remove. Penetrating oils, ATF/acetone, heat and beat, etc were all used with some successes, and so far I have had over 30 T-30 torx bits fail...but I still have about 17 bolts to go, and two more with broken off heads. With the two snapped bolt heads I have reached the point where I am looking at other options, with the prevailing idea being to drill out the remaining bolts and reestablish threads with helicoils or Time-serts. However, while I knew they existed, I have no personal experience with them and I have some concerns with ending up with five pounds of weight on a wheel to get it balanced, issues with threads spinning in holes, etc. After scouring the internet, I remembered that the members of this forum are awesome, and most have far more experience than I do, and I figured I would simply ask for opinions on thread inserts as a way to get these wheels back in action? Suggestions for good techniques and lessons learned are certainly welcome too!

The cure is to repeatedly use the RE on rough, rocky trails. Soon they’ll be all scarred up like mine, amd I sloqly began to OCD out less.

Seriously though... Are you, by chance, using security torx bits (with a hole in the center)? Tbose will fail quickly. But ya, once those screws bond with the aluminum, they’te like cement.

 

[bloc]

Stuff like this makes me want to replace my (so far) every-bolt-removable rock warriors with Dakar Zeros. Took forever, but when I got them I removed every bolt and blew out the corrosion, then chased the threads. Then little bit of blue loc-tite, specifically to prevent corrosion. Now a couple years later thinking I should go pull some screws to make sure they still move.

I also wonder how much of it is them being over torqued. The stock spec is quite low.

 

[Markuson]

Stuff like this makes me want to replace my (so far) every-bolt-removable rock warriors with Dakar Zeros. Took forever, but when I got them I removed every bolt and blew out the corrosion, then chased the threads. Then little bit of blue loc-tite, specifically to prevent corrosion. Now a couple years later thinking I should go pull some screws to make sure they still move.

I also wonder how much of it is them being over torqued. The stock spec is quite low.

I wonder if its more tge reaction between the two metals...similar to how rock warriors can firm a bond with the rotors.

 

[bloc]

I wonder if its more tge reaction between the two metals...similar to how rock warriors can firm a bond with the rotors.

Probably so. That's why I was hoping the blue loc-tite would isolate them and prevent corrosion. I've read of too many screws going missing to feel comfortable with anti-seize in there.

Still, I'd bet a lot of them end up over-tightened. Which doesn't help anything.

 

[USMCVader]

It warms my heart to hear that I am not alone in my frustrations. My first bit was a Tecton security bit with the hole in the middle, and it failed miserably...and fast. I then switched to impact rated bits from Bosch and Dewalt. They last longer but still always fail. I have tried an old school impact screwdriver, a cordless impact wrench, and then I pulled out the big guns with a pneumatic impact wrench. The last one has helped accelerate bit failure, but did help get a couple bolts out. Plus it just sounds cool. Multiple types of penetrating oil, vinegar, muriatic acid, etc and they still are stuck. Two different torches to apply heat, and I also tried CRC’s Freeze Off to take it in the opposite direction. I have looked at trying alum to dissolve the bolts, but I haven’t figured out how to keep the solution hot around the wheel long enough for it to work. About the best thing I discovered is that when you have a broken bit and there is nothing to grab, hitting it with high pressure air so far always lifts it and blows it out. Fun times.

 

[bloc]

I know you don’t have many more options, but be careful with heat on at least the main body of forged wheels. Too much, even from powder coating, can weaken the aluminum.

 

[lx200inAR]

Yeah, i was afraid to do heat with a torch as I care less about getting the bolts out than I do ruining the forging process. Also, I definitely wasn't using security bits. There is a recent thread where a guy went through about 10 brands of bits and the Wiha Impaktor bits were the best of his bunch. I had a few bits in toolbox and ordered the strongest Milwaukee Impact bits before I found that thread. The Milwaukee bits were useless,. They couldn't even get the medium stuck bolts out. The Wiha bits were much stronger, but are still little match for the well corroded bolts. The three methods I used to get out bolts that didn't budge with my 18v Impact Driver, were to use the Impact driver in forward and reverse in succession, sometimes after 4-5 changes in direction it would finally break free. Then moving up to putting the bit in a socket and turning with a socket driver (this was the only way I could break the Wiha bits, my Impact driver did not overstress the Wiha bits), and finally using a punch and centering it in the torx recess and hitting it with a hammer pretty firmly broke the corrosion bond on some then they would come out. Once I had more than 4 bolts that were going to need machine work to get out/repair is when I decided it didn't matter to me anymore.

 

[gaijin]

Just in case anyone needs a reminder, the torque spec for those little bolts is very small:

Be sure to re-install valve stem caps. Install Lock Rings with notch lined up with valve. Tighten fasteners progressively in a star pattern.Torque to 45 ~ 50 in-lbf

That's INCH-POUNDS!

Check page 5 of the RW "Bible" for reference: 17" TRD Alloy Wheel "Poop Sheet"

HTH

 

[turbo8]

I guess I was extremely lucky. I removed all of them from 5 wheels without any problems. I reinstalled with a dab of silicone sealant on the underside of the head of the bolt and a little on the threads.

 

[indycole]

I’d add a tiny tap with a brass center punch after heating and cooling down.

With that many remaining it may be a toss up between extractors, drilling out, or welding nuts/threaded rod if possible.

 

[USMCVader]

I know you don’t have many more options, but be careful with heat on at least the main body of forged wheels. Too much, even from powder coating, can weaken the aluminum.

Thanks, I have been very careful with the heat for this very reason, which probably has not helped with getting the dang things out. Going to take a look at the Wiha bits, at this point it can't hurt to try yet another brand. When I bought them I told myself that there is no hurry, but after almost three months of soaking, beating, heating, and snapped bits, I admit that my patience is wearing down a little.

 

[nwfl4runner]

I would forgo bits and start drilling them out. 135 degree cobalt bits. If you want to be fancy, get them all in left hand so if it catches, it'll help pull out.

edit: not your home depot special either, order from McMaster

edit 2: would not waste time with extractors. Mine ended up snapping in the bolts.

 

[USMCVader]

I’d add a tiny tap with a brass center punch after heating and cooling down.

With that many remaining it may be a toss up between extractors, drilling out, or welding nuts/threaded rod if possible.

Oh, they have been tapped.. As a Marine, the "big hammer fixes everything" method is almost instilled in you from the first time you put on the uniform. Have tried extractors too (tore up the threads on two screw extractors yesterday). Was looking at a Snap-On fluted extractor set last night, figuring if I trash those at least I can get them replaced under their warranty. My bride thinks I should view this whole thing as a problem solving challenge, but she is not the one watching the sparks literally fly when a bit snaps. With that said, I have been impressed with the power of chemistry, since living in New England, with its salted roads in the winter, guarantees the potential for galvanic corrosion. In this case, the corrosion does not look like metal cancer, but instead acts like industrial super glue.

 

[lx200inAR]

In case you didn't find it. Here's the thread about the bits. There are some links to Amazon options. Also, Wiha sells the bits in bulk packs if you need more than 2 at a time. I believe in 10/25/100 pieces.

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