Head Gasket Issue or Cracked Head

[jiggawu]

Hello everyone, having done a thorough search on this forum, I was looking for a conclusive opinion from you guys on my issue before I proceed any further. I will explain the issue and whats been done already. I suspect HG failure.

'96 LX450 with 188k. The HG was replaced at 155k with new valve seals and coolant flush. Bought it off a fellow mudder when it had 167k, who meticulously maintained it (I can name him if needed, I don't think he is on the forums anymore). I maintain it at regular intervals. He used green Prestone coolant, so I continued as well.

I had to drive from Los Angeles to Yakima, WA last week. Fiance drove the 80, I drove my Dodge. At about 60 miles south of Bend OR, the AC cutoff and she noticed the needle creep up. Stopped at a rest stop and idled for a bit, and the needle went up to the red. Shut off the engine. No coolant in overflow, but had whiffs of the coolant smell. Drove the Dodge to nearest gas station (1 mile away fortunately) and got some coolant. Went back to 80, filled it up, and let it cool. Checked the needle by turning the key, still needle above midpoint. Let it cool for nearly an hour. Then drove the 80 to that gas station and the needle started to creep up again. Stopped, let it cool, and fill up more coolant. Apparently its eating coolant is my first diagnosis. Eventually, after a few starts, slow driving, fill up coolant, I got it to drive at normal temps. We gave it a shot and started driving with intentions to stop every 45 miles to Yakima. We made it to Yakima, but filled up the coolant overflow every 45 miles or less. Needle was at normal temp the whole time.

So at the house we are staying at, I began further diagnosis the next couple of days, started the engine a few times, and searched the heck out of this forum. I find:

1. Chocolate milkshake under the oil cap, some, but not the oil stick
2. Chocolate milkshake now in my coolant overflow tank (it wasn't like that during the drive from Bend)
3. I have not at anytime gotten white smoke, but its also hot up here in Yakima and throughout the drive from Bend
4. I can't really sense the 'sweet' smell from exhaust pipe, but the exhaust gas smells heavier
5. I forgot to check the bubbles test before I dropped it off at the Toyota dealer, stupid me
6. Dealer says leak/pressure test didn't show oil and coolant transferring both ways. I did not trust their analysis and told them to do more tests. I think they were lazy and just told me, "you need a new HG".
7. All the driving done since Bend and to the dealer, the engine drives fine and smooth and quiet, like it has for the last several thousand miles
8. I changed the oil and filter before this trip and topped off the coolant between low and full
9. I cannot find any leakage anywhere, but I did not check the deep areas where leaks have been found and burn off before they accumulate during driving. The PO changed the PHH to the good stuff.
10. Drive to dealer (about 5 miles), no overheating, needle at normal

I don't know what else I can add, but let me know of your thoughts and questions. Is it the HG or a cracked head, or even oil cooler? I will meet with the dealer again, ask for a leakdown test, check for bubbles, etc. I am not really mechanically inclined (or have the time) so research and questions is my best tool.

Thanks in advance.
Oliver

 

[1ststatecruiser]

Do blackstone oil analysis or rent the headgasket leak tester kit at autozone.

 

[jiggawu]

Do blackstone oil analysis or rent the headgasket leak tester kit at autozone.

Yes, definitely the next steps for me. Heading to the dealer to do that so I get a more definitive answer. Any recommended mechanics near the Yakima, WA area other than Torfab 160 miles away? The recommended mechanics list on Mud all have ones that are at least that far from me.

Another question, if the oil cooler fails and oil/coolant mix, does the coolant get eaten up at the rate mine was?

 

[elhombre]

Pull each spark plug and see if one is steamed clean. Start with #6, the back one, and work forward. A clean spark plug is a dead giveaway. Next time you let it cool, completely refill the radiator at the cap, and then fill the overflow bottle up to the line. Then you know how low it was when you first had the problem arise. (From your description, it sounded like you refilled the system using the overflow bottle only.)

 

[Rusco]

Personal experience: I bought my current 80 from a former customer because he was getting uncomfortable with the increased oil consumption, 220k miles. After having it for about 3 months, I found oil froth in the coolant overflow, and under the radiator cap. No overheating, exhaust didn't smell like burned sugar, no rough running, all the plugs were equally coated in ash and carbon. With the head off, the gasket had failed at the area around the oil delivery passage to the head, pumping engine oil into the coolant. Makes sense, oil pressure is normally more than cooling system pressure, except maybe at idle. The only odd thing was that I was adding coolant, but not much more than I expected to lose through simple normal evaporation from the expansion tank. There may have been occasional passage of coolant into the oil, and the higher crankcase temps caused it to evaporate before it actually mixed with the engine oil. I never found chocolate anywhere in engine oil.
After the head gasket replacement, oil consumption went back down to a quart every 2-3k miles or so, and coolant loss went to minimal to none, but I had to flush the cooling system once a week for about two months to get all the old oil out. I apparently got lucky on the hoses, as none of them swelled up or got soft from the oil in the coolant. I still check them frequently though, almost five years and 40k miles later.

 

[jiggawu]

Rusco, appreciate your response and I think my symptoms are similar to yours.

Just got back from discussing with the technician and here is what they found:
1. Through the leak down test, it came out negative, no change into yellow color on the tester
2. No bubbles showing up in the radiator or overflow during engine running
3. Pulled all spark plugs and they look normal, no "steam cleaning"
4. They drained the oil and found no obvious coolant, but they did not do a Blackstone test either
5. Did pressure tests to see if they could force oil into coolant and vice versa, nothing visible
6. Engine is not running rough and no misfires
7. My engine has never consumed oil and oil level looked same as when I left CA

Definitively, I know it is eating coolant at a pretty quick rate, no leaks outside engine or at tubes, maybe half cup of oil is in coolant, a little sludge under the oil cap.

So hard diagnosis to make, but I think I ruled out the oil cooler as there is no easy way to force oil/coolant transfer and its eating coolant anyways.

 

[handsomebob]

Was the engine cold when they did all the pressure tests? Could be that when its cold it seals enough not to leak, but when warm everything expands and it starts eating away at the coolant again.

 

[elhombre]

"5. Did pressure tests to see if they could force oil into coolant and vice versa, nothing visible"

How does someone pressure test the oil system to see if it forces oil into the coolant? (short of the obvious - just running the engine?)

I agree with the others, the most definitive test is the Blackstone test.

From your first post :
6. Dealer says leak/pressure test didn't show oil and coolant transferring both ways. I did not trust their analysis and told them to do more tests. I think they were lazy and just told me, "you need a new HG".

Go with your gut...

 

[Robkc]

Based upon the no misfires and no spark plugs steam cleaned conditions and recently replaced PHH I would suspect rear seat heater coolant lines are the most likely culprit if you are still losing coolant.

 

[LandCruisinMy93]

Here is a novel idea. Dye your engine oil, run it around nearby for a while allowing it to reach operating temp and then drive as normal. Go home, let it cool and then Open the radiator and check it with the black light and goggles. That will answer your question as to whether or not the oil you're witnessing is residual from the previous replacement of whether it's new. If it's not new then you're burning coolant likely through the intake instead of directly into the cylinder. Check all of the little coolant lines at the intake and make sure they're connected where they're supposed to be. Also if you're not getting new oil in your coolant I would check the rear heater core lines as mentioned. One last thing, have you checked the weep hole on the water pump? I'm surprised at how many people do a head gasket job or other PM to get their vehicle up to par and they dont do a water pump and thermostat....always the best security for your money when buying any used vehicle.

 

[jiggawu]

To close this thread up for future 80 owners to research, here is what was found. Getting deep back there you can see some seepage at the headgasket area. So a HG can fail after only 32k miles. Just so y

ou know. Sucks.

 

[LINUS]

If you're still in WA, I'd buy AAA tomorrow & get the 'AAA plus' package - wait for the next day & call for the tow.

You get 2) 100 mile tows/ year & you can use back-to-back (I have) - use them to get you to Torfab - I do all my own work, but if I was ever to pay, it's the one place save Robbie I'd cut a check.

 

[baldilocks]

Bought my 80 with a completely documented professional rebuild and after only 16k miles the HG let loose. I called the shop and they told me they used FelPro gaskets and re-used the bolts.
I used an OEM gasket. Let me tell you, the gasket I removed was not as robust as the OEM gasket. I clamped the head down with ARP studs. Only been a thousand miles or so but based on my research here on Mud, this is a winning combination of parts. Good luck with it.

 

[jiggawu]

Yeah, the HG that failed was an OEM gasket that the previous owner, Mud member, installed himself. Not sure about the bolts. Could maybe find his thread about the HG install in the history here. Oh well, moving on to get it fixed.