Has anyone re-geared a 200-series yet?

[Taco2Cruiser]

Side question for you guys with taller gears. Anyone concerned about the additional load introduced by taller gears and taller tires on the drivetrain?

Additional load? What do you mean? (Serious question)

 

[indycole]

Here's public cost info on Nitro 4.88s and Harrop E-Lockers for 2016+. I know the ARB lockers are more popular but I'm sold on the Harrops.

Gears - $1400
Older Housing - $150 to $450
Pinion Flange/Spacers - $80 to $150
Locker Switches - $50 to $75
Front Locker - $1314
Rear Locker - $1194

I'd estimate 10-25 hours of labor on top of that. Maybe more. Don't forget about sales tax, disposals, consumables, etc.

So, for the price of ~15 used Mitsubishi Monteros from Craigslist you can have gears and e-lockers.

 

[wardharris]

I am excited that the harrop locker vendor has ordered a 18 cruiser through the dealer here in phoenix and plans on fully stuffing the axles with gears and lockers. Hoping they bring it out to a local club event for us to drool over.

You are excited? How do you think I feel..... Started off trying to buy a 2017 but my wife decided she had to have Blue/Terra and we ended up ordering an '18 to give her what she wanted. Now I feel like a kid at Christmas waiting for Santa

Here's public cost info on Nitro 4.88s and Harrop E-Lockers for 2016+. I know the ARB lockers are more popular but I'm sold on the Harrops.

Gears - $1400
Older Housing - $150 to $450
Pinion Flange/Spacers - $80 to $150
Locker Switches - $50 to $75 Rocker switches are included with the elockers, and we throw in an 80 Series two-locker switch as below.
Front Locker - $1314 Yup
Rear Locker - $1194 Yup

I'd estimate 10-25 hours of labor on top of that. Maybe more. Don't forget about sales tax, disposals, consumables, etc.

Good guesstimate. We (Georg / @orangefj45 at Valley Hybrids) did the first Harrop/Eaton install in a 2016+ and "discovered" the new diff housing halfway into the build. An expensive learning experience

It was worth it and provided me with a great story to tell when I was at Harrop Engineering in Melbourne several weeks ago.

To clarify, I am doing a Terrain Tamer Pro lift kit at Camelback Toyota prior to delivery along with Evo Corse wheels and BFG KO IIs. Brakes will get swapped for Terrain Tamer HP rotors/pads after a couple thousand miles (we are doing before/after stopping tests) and after that, the gears and Harrops early in the new year. I want to figure out the 8 speed and new gear ratios before we do the gears/elockers.

The Harrops have been around for a long time - since before the ARBs were relaunched with upgraded internals a few years ago. The Harrops are based upon Eaton design and gears, but the Harrops are their own animal, made in Australia. The owners and staff at Cruiser Brothers all run them in our rigs (my old 73, an 80 Series, a 100 Series, a Tacoma and soon, a new 200 Series) with good results. We have sold around 400 in USA in the last two years.

Lots of good options out there, we just happen to like electric

 

[linuxgod]

Additional load? What do you mean? (Serious question)

I don't entirely know, that's why I'm asking the experts

What I've previously heard is that taller tires increase the load on the drivetrain and increase the likelihood of breaking something (like a birf on an solid axle truck or a CV on an IFS). Gears change the final ratio so I assume they have some impact. Maybe taller gears reduce the risk?

 

[Markuson]

I don't entirely know, that's why I'm asking the experts

What I've previously heard is that taller tires increase the load on the drivetrain and increase the likelihood of breaking something (like a birf on an solid axle truck or a CV on an IFS). Gears change the final ratio so I assume they have some impact. Maybe taller gears reduce the risk?

I'm assuming you mean thatwith larger tires, you might generate more leverage on the axles themselves under stress...just like a breaker bar makes it easier to shear a bolt due to additional leverage you can apply to the bolt due to the longer wrench arm. Super big tires could form more resistance since they create a larger circle against the turning of the axle...so it could mean more stress on the axle itself if you are having to crank the axle that much harder to turn a circle (tire edge) that is that much farther from the axle...like a breaker bar is farther from a bolt, etc.

The scenario I think of would be where you are struggling against a vertical surface (rock) that you need you front tires to powerfully walk up and over. It would give more resistance to the turning of the axle due to greater resistance leverage of the larger tire...so...theoretically, a lower gear could keep applying greater force against the attempt...perhaps cranking hard enough to break an axle. Or...CV joint...

Is that what you mean?

 

[linuxgod]

...so...theoretically, a lower gear could keep applying greater force against the attempt...perhaps cranking hard enough to break an axle. Or...CV joint...

Is that what you mean?

Bingo

 

[Fasternfaster]

For those of you who are dealing with gear hunting and mpg issues, have you considered a TC locker kit? this video got me thinking about why I rarely hear from anyone here running one.

 

[gaijin]

...this video got me thinking about why I rarely hear from anyone here running one.

Maybe because it's designed for use with the diesel engine?

HTH

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Bingo

In my opinion, while anyone could break anything, I feel the 200s drivetrain is quite substantial and doesn't have really any weak links in it.

Unlike say the considerably smaller Toyota 8.2" rear end of a Lexus GX460/5th generation 4Runner or the good old Toyota 8" from basically every Toyota (except for LCs) since the 70s (been upgraded over the years of course)

We have a nice big 8.75" front and 9.25" ring gears with 1.57" pinion gears, big 'ol bearings, massive CV axles, and huge steering linkages.

I feel as long as someone knows the basics of wheeling with a locker (which isn't much more than try and stay strait while the locker is engaged, I see way too many people try and fight against the terrain and their lockers while wheeling) the 200 drivetrain is more than up to the task.

That and try not to shock load the drivetrain, which is why I prefer an air locker over other options because I prefer a true spool while I'm all twisted up in the rocks (when I need a locker) and need to adjust my line, so a small reverse to change directions, then back into forward. It's worked quite well for me over the years versus just trying to pound strait through an obstacle that is usually bigger than my truck.

I don't carry spare drivetrain parts while I wheel, it's easier for me to just torch off what's left of a CV axle, lock the front only to give me 3 wheel drive and get off the trail. (I sadly have seen people try to replace CV axles on trail, only to cause more damage or do something dumb, like not bringing a catch pan for the fluid... or forget fluid to refill or not realize that they can't break a 250 ft lb hub nut while on a weird angle, only to seriously hurt themselves). But you can always cryogenicly freeze your drivetrain for a pretty huge increase in strength like I did.

For those of you who are dealing with gear hunting and mpg issues, have you considered a TC locker kit? this video got me thinking about why I rarely hear from anyone here running one.

I feel that is such a bad idea. I feel it's a half baked way of solving an issue. Keeping the T/C locked longer is a great way to increase engine load (which kills MPG way more than higher RPMs with lower load, within reason of course) and also massively increase stress on the motor, lugging it just like not downshifting when needed if you have a manual transmission.

I feel a lot of "cheap" and electronic "solutions" are put to market purely because they can make money. Sometimes, we just need to achknowldege that we need to do some real work, replace metal parts, and do it the right way.

It's always a balance of engine load, keeping the T/C locked more than unlocked, number of shifts, RPMs, engine timing/cam specs like knowing how to pick the right lobe and separation, and of course then number one... heat management.

I can tune like a boss these days, but I can't make a car turn into a F-350 with wires. But what do I know, I'm just a guy on the internet. I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night though (I really did), and my 4.88s made the mountain drive quite nice.

 

[Willy beamin]

When I spoke with @just differentials about whether to cryogenicly freeze my gears or not, the reply I received was lap them not freeze them. Freezing can make a gear more brittle in the end and lapping (high polishing) is just emulating what will eventually happening in the gear housing over time and use. food for thought - I'm not a gear head such as your self but I felt it was worth mentioning seeing how that answer was given to me.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

When I spoke with @just differentials about whether to cryogenicly freeze my gears or not, the reply I received was lap them not freeze them. Freezing can make a gear more brittle in the end and lapping (high polishing) is just emulating what will eventually happening in the gear housing over time and use. food for thought - I'm not a gear head such as your self but I felt it was worth mentioning seeing how that answer was given to me.

Not according to NASA, I actually use the same company they use. And like any process, if it goes wrong, it can weaken things... just like heat treating and bad welding. I can say that it absolutely strengthens gear sets. It's big in the drifting world as increasing ring and pinion sizes for strength is quite hard in those small rear wheel drive cars. From personal experience, every Dana 35C I've cryo'ed hasn't failed under some stupid conditions, and that's saying a lot.

I'm not saying Nitro gear sets are weak, maybe companies that sell them don't want to imply that those products they sell could need additional work to make better, but in my opinion, cryo is just step 2 of 3 possible steps to making metal stronger, the first being heat treating which Nitro Gear already does.

While not a very good test, cryogenic parts run cooler, I can run all day on the highway and my rear diff never gets above 115°F with 4.88s (I have a temp gushed on there). I can put my hand on the housing and it's not very hot, just kinda warm. I wonder what other people's 4.88 are at?

 

[Mineral]

revving up the wayback machine to post #9...

Question (TL;DR - too long; didn't read)

@indycole (or anyone else with tires at or under 33" w/ 4.88s) - Can you comment on the impact to gas mileage of going to the 4.88s - especially on the highway? Any downsides you can think of pairing your size tires w/ 4.88s?

Context (if you want to keep reading...)

I'm a longtime peruser who just joined the forum. Currently, am running a fairly stock, new-to-me 2011 LC200 w/ 285/65R18 STT Pros (32.91", according to Cooper's site.) Once the STT PROs wear down, probably in 5+ years, I plan to run 285/70R18 (~33.7"), 295/70R18 (~34.3") or 285/75R18 (~34.8"). Over that period, I plan to lift, lock, and re-gear the 200 in anticipation of being able to run 33s or 34s.

My main use case is taking the family to off-grid property 3 hours of highway driving away and then through 10+ miles of dirt, lava rock, mud, sludge, and virgin snow; ingress/egress to the property can get treacherous. We currently get ~9-12 mpg pulling the makeshift overland trailer up and back. 11-13 mpg around town, unladen, driving like a responsible adult. (I should see what mpg I'd get driving it like I did the 05 4R...)

Unless Tio Rico me ayuda, I'll need to take a staged approach between the modest lift, gears/lockers, and new tires; order of operation considerations have been weighing on my mind and am seeking input. I do not plan to add much weight via armor in the future, but may consider the smaller auxiliary fuel tank wardharris is actively pursuing.

My question has to do with the period of time the LC200 would be wearing the 285/65R18s with the 4.88 gears installed and the lift. I've been looking over this forum for feedback on installing 4.88s when staying close to or under 33s and really appreciated the comments/insights summarized and quoted below.

RS6tofj80 has mentioned gears seem to be optional if you stay close to 33s.

Taco2Cruiser and JBHorne have a ton of good things to say about going 4.88s w/ 33.5-33.8" tires. (Shout out to JBHorne's writeup on the subject.)

justdifferentials also had a great write-up when they originally installed the 4.88s on their white 200 and Carl was very helpful on the phone when I asked some follow-up questions. However, Carl is running at least 34s and his write-up was geared (pun) to larger tires as a foregone conclusion.

indycole is the only fellow member I've seen so far w/ 4.88s and 285/65R18s.​

...Also, for what it's worth, I haven't felt much difference w/ ECT Power either - but my 200 has the 6sp...

Thanks for the input!

Some additional thoughts:

Benefits

• Due to the weight of the truck the transmission was not utilizing the full range of gears. Now it does. I believe this results in the truck driving smoother and slightly better fuel economy.
• The truck drives with more pep. Even more when ETC Power is turned (whereas @Willy beamin doesn't notice... ? could be the difference between the 6sp and 8sp transmissions).
• 4-Lo 2nd gear now feels like 1st used to rendering 4-Lo 1st gear almost like a "new gear" on the truck when crawling offroad.
• The truck is better controlled on steep highways. With the automatic transmission alone I find that I don't need to use the break as often.
• To summarize, the truck just drives much better than it did pre-4.88s. At 7500 lb+ (most recent weigh in was 7800lb) the truck felt very sluggish and the shift points were off. The truck would search for gears more often. Now everything feels just right though I do find it switching into ETC Power on steep interstates to be helpful especially when using Cruise Control.

Worth the cost? You'd have to drive a lot of miles to see a return on the fuel economy side. There were some complications related to my install that made it cost about 30% more than I'd budgeted (to no fault of the service providers, vendors, equipment, etc.) so I'd be a little more gung-ho on the whole upgrade if it had gone as expected in terms of time and money.

Now that I have gears and lockers, though, my gut reaction is that I love the gears and like the lockers. The lockers are more of a combination of "peace of mind" and not holding others up on the trail for non-locker-recovery. I probably would not have done them yet if I didn't do the gears. The gears were the first priority.

 

[indycole]

Once you start factoring in the idiosyncrasies (build, weight, style of driving, geography) it's very hard to compare absolute numbers among trucks. While my tires are on the small side, my truck is almost always 7500 lbs or higher. Darn near 8000 for some trips. That's a problem separate problem, and not one that I'm ignoring.

I'd stand by everything I said in the post quoted above. I used to see around 10 mpg around town; now I still get the same. However, it used to be impossible to get over 13 mpg on the highway but now I see 15 pretty regularly and even 16-18 with a moderate tailwind. And that's fully loaded.

Edited to add: If I were to be super-picky, I would say that sometimes shifting isn't as smooth as the stock gears. That could be a the transmission TSB that dealers refuse to apply as my VIN wasn't included in it. Who knows.

 

[Mineral]

that is helpful indycole; thank you

 

[JBHorne]

Since you live in Phoenix, maybe we could meet up. Personally, unless you are doing lockers at the same time, I don't see why you would do gears at this time. With that said, I would save up and just do tires, suspension (lift + ucas) and regear at the same time. You'll be hard pressed to get a tire to last five years out here in the heat (dry rot), so you'll most likely be replacing sooner than that, but I don't know that specific tire. I just like to "stage" my upgrades, that's all. I'm working on my "stage 3" projects now which took me 9 years to get started (gears, front locker, roof rack, light bar, etc.) My "stage 4" wish list includes a supercharger and big brake kit, but now we're just being silly.

 

[Mineral]

JBHorne - Will pm you and see if we can connect locally; that'd be great. Your rig sounds well thought out. You give solid advice to just save up and do the lift/locker/gear/tires all at once vs piecemeal.

I was surprised when my daily driver 4R Duratracs lasted 7+ years - 5 around SJC and 2 around PHX. DT and STT Pros are a bit apples to oranges, but the LC200 doesn't rack up the miles as quickly and 5 wheel rotations continue. Love the Coopers - despite the slight hum and mpg/weight penalty the offroad performance more than compensates - but you could be right: maybe they'll go sooner than expected. At the price paid, would really like to get their full life.

Thinking this out for those reading who see the benefit of staging these build options, I'm not sure if I'd do the lift or the lockers/gearing first. Regardless, by the time I did both, the tires will probably be due 1-3 years later. Given indycole's experience, sounds like 4.88s are neutral to slightly beneficial to the mpg of "smaller" tire 200s, improve seat of the pants feel, and would be good even if one were to keep 285/65R18s indefinitely. However, if larger tires weren't on the eventual docket, to your point, it really would be a bit of a waste unless you were already in the diffs to install lockers.

Regarding your stage 4 wish list, you may want to give Carl (justdifferentials) a ring before slapping on the super charger. His input may be of value to your plans as his build had 4.88s and a SC. Not trying to be cryptic, just prefer you hearing the feedback directly rather than through hearsay.

 

[bjowett]

Toyota runs 4.30 gears on the tow package equipped 5.7L Tundra. There's info about it somewhere around here.

 

[JBHorne]

Regarding your stage 4 wish list, you may want to give Carl (justdifferentials) a ring before slapping on the super charger. His input may be of value to your plans as his build had 4.88s and a SC. Not trying to be cryptic, just prefer you hearing the feedback directly rather than through hearsay.

Ha! "Stage 4" is code word for "wife will never let it happen" :-D

 

[mep1811]

I also run 33s and have done gears (and lockers). I did so because most the of the time we're in the truck it's heavily loaded. It's not really a daily driver so it just stays stocked and ready for camping. Everyone's right that it's worth doing the gears and lockers at the same time but it's a very expensive upgrade.

How have you found the re-gearing to be worth it? I have 33" and will be towing a 2K trailer.

 

[Mineral]

Am running 285/65R18 Cooper STT Pros (close to 33s), harrop triple locked and re-geared to nitro 4.88s. Occasionally tow 2k-4k lbs.

4.88s absolutely worth it if adding lockers at same time. By themselves, 4.88s are nice but unsure if I’d pay all that money for just re-gear. It was more of an add-on to doing lockers than my primary motivation /justification.

Over a year of driving around town and a few expedition trips reinforced this perspective. Lockers have been worth every penny on the trails. however, especially as I’ve added weight (bumpers and sliders), am sure glad I also re-geared - even on 33s.

don’t think I’ll do the mud terrain tires again tho, when I step up to a larger tire next time.