WTITW
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GX460 Transmission fluid cooler (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter blights460
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I dont think comparing two HXs mathematically for our application would be unrealistic at all. We want to know Q, the heat transfer rate. This allows us to make an informed buying decision. Maybe the Hayden works great in 97% of situations for a good price. Maybe, as some have suggested, traveling up grades in higher temps, at higher elevations, the Hayden could become heat soaked. I usually don't just run out and buy something just because someone else said it worked. Trust, but verify. What kind of engineer would I be if I atleast didn't think about this a little.Such is the value of empirical observations. I often encounter other engineers whose analyses clearly don't reflect reality (i.e., a structure that has fine performance is at risk of imminent failure). My usual response is that their calculations are clearly wrong, yet they tend to believe their calculations over reality!
If nothing else, that expensive cooler looks bad ass. Really though, I think I like it better because it's made in the USA, I'll be happy to pay more for that, the cool factor is a bonus.
I'm the one who mentioned the elevation thingI dont think comparing two HXs mathematically for our application would be unrealistic at all. We want to know Q, the heat transfer rate. This allows us to make an informed buying decision. Maybe the Hayden works great in 97% of situations for a good price. Maybe, as some have suggested, traveling up grades in higher temps, at higher elevations, the Hayden could become heat soaked. I usually don't just run out and buy something just because someone else said it worked. Trust, but verify. What kind of engineer would I be if I atleast didn't think about this a little.
If nothing else, that expensive cooler looks bad ass. Really though, I think I like it better because it's made in the USA, I'll be happy to pay more for that, the cool factor is a bonus.
. Though, it wasn't really a problem with the Hayden, it's a shortcoming of a mechanical fan. At slow engine speeds (1st gear low-range climbing at 5 mph), the mechanical fan does not move a lot of air. As soon as engine (and fan speeds) increase, the trans and engine both started to cool down within seconds. Even in that situation, my trans didn't get above 225F. EDIT: If one was concerned with this type of condition, an aux fan for the cooler would be a good idea.Toyota must have done these calculations when they designed the GX460/470. For my 470, they sized a tiny little cooler that was too small for even an unloaded vehicle. For the 460, they completely omitted the cooler! And the 460 has a much higher transmission failure rate than the 470. A GX460 OEM trans would probably get very, very hot in the use case that I described.
I'll be curious on how your calculations consider air flow through the cooler based on vehicle speed and engine/fan RPM for the various use cases, as well as how much fluid the transmission pump is pumping through the cooler at those speeds (fluid flow much be directly correlated to engine speed), and how much slippage is in the torque converter. With the OEM cooler being part of the radiator, you'd also need to consider heat load from the engine and how much heat it's shedding to the atmosphere, in addition to how much it's either warming or cooling the trans fluid (and whatever effects are caused by the AC condenser being packed between the trans cooler and radiator - if you're wheeling with the AC on). So it's seeming there are quite a few variables in analytically replicating the behavior that I described
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No apology needed…. I’m probably more wrong than right these days.
@Acrad apologies Dyslexia’d your post. Should have known not to question anything you post
r2m
Richard
As another engineer chiming in, hence one or two tests are never conclusive.Such is the value of empirical observations
In the medical device industry, we usually test 95/95 confidence and reliability which equates to 59 tested samples (usually rounded up to 60).
It works this way: So, for example, if a process has achieved 95/95 confidence and reliability, you know that you can be 95% confident that 95% of the units in your population are good.
So in our case we'd need a whole bunch of us running the exact same setup and then do the analysis.
Yeah, I'm kind of in the weeds here.
Delete dupe
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That’s me. Went to Michigan last weekend and returned in a brutal crosswind and with high heat and humidity. Coolant temps refused to go past 91°C. Trans got as high as as 95°C but usually was near bang on coolant temps.Hah I installed one and it runs cooler, calculations done
I have seen from a few folks with CSF radiator without an added cooler(or Hayden) it does seem to run a little cooler than stock.
With no add on cooler, just the CSF, trans temperature can’t really be less than coolant temperature at equilibrium. But it’s very close and I yet to see it move more than 5 degrees C above coolant temperature.
R95/C95 is how I’ve usually referred to it.As another engineer chiming in, hence one or two tests are never conclusive.
In the medical device industry, we usually test 95/95 confidence and reliability which equates to 59 tested samples (usually rounded up to 60).
It works this way: So, for example, if a process has achieved 95/95 confidence and reliability, you know that you can be 95% confident that 95% of the units in your population are good.
So in our case we'd need a whole bunch of us running the exact same setup and then do the analysis.
Yeah, I'm kind of in the weeds here.
Are there any issues with mixing Amsoil trans fluid with the Toyota trans fluid?
r2m
Richard
Read the first paragraph: https://blog.amsoil.com/ask-amsoil-mixing-amsoil-lubricants/
Pinned thermostats in addition to aux cooler. Drove from Ontario, CA to Yosemite via hwy 395 this weekend, return trip via 99, i5. Observed pan and TC temps of 184F going through the IE, Ridgecrest, etc while ambient temp was 110F. Return trip up Tejon Pass, saw max temps of 194F while outside was 100F. Temps going up Tioga pass ranged from 160-188F. These are much improved over just aux cooler, no pin.
I'm 4500 miles into a cross country roadtrip. I have the OEM aux cooler and I've pinned the thermostat. The tranny pan temps have remained under 190F for most of the trip and crept into the low 200s under heavy load, even with ambient temps of 100F+.
I'm currently in Moab and while running the Fins and Things trail it stayed below 200F.
I'm currently in Moab and while running the Fins and Things trail it stayed below 200F.
r2m
Richard
As I mentioned in my build post regarding the transmission service, my transmission guys says as long as it stays under 300ºF, no worries. Low to mid 200º'F is very normal and acceptable.
Above 266F and AT starts initiating survival mode
Generally accepted ATF operating temps and transmission life expectancy. Many different charts out there from different sources but they all say the same thing at the end of the day.
Last weekend hit 228° in the torque converter briefly coming up the bluffs pulling 3K+ lbs. but sump never broke 198° where previously the sump would often also rise and equal TC temps and hold for quite some time. Really happy with the Hayden 698 and pinning the bypass for summer.
Last weekend hit 228° in the torque converter briefly coming up the bluffs pulling 3K+ lbs. but sump never broke 198° where previously the sump would often also rise and equal TC temps and hold for quite some time. Really happy with the Hayden 698 and pinning the bypass for summer.
Please take the following with a grain of salt:
I asked Chat GPT to find Toyota vehicles with similar transmissions, and specifically those that use the WS fluid. All the transmissions have an overheat warning between 260-270F, which recovery temp of 230F. These include the A750F, our A760F, A761E, AB60F/E, UA80F, UB80F, AA80E, AA81E, AWR10L65. These include trans from Toyota trucks, newer 300/lx600, and high performance ISF, IS500, GSF, LC500. I will refrain from posting the table as I haven't verified all the data points and don't want it to be interpreted as truth. I even asked it to compare to other trucks and it was comparable, even 2500/3500 models.
Take this information as you will, but beyond 230F seem to universally be caution range. I was getting 230-240F in the TC just driving around my neighborhood without Aux cooler and pin. (Most of the roads in my neighborhood are 10-15 degrees, 17-27% grade, 25 mph speed limit so lots of gear 2,3 no lockup). I put my iPhone on the sideway to measure). Even aux, no pin I was getting those temps.
I asked Chat GPT to find Toyota vehicles with similar transmissions, and specifically those that use the WS fluid. All the transmissions have an overheat warning between 260-270F, which recovery temp of 230F. These include the A750F, our A760F, A761E, AB60F/E, UA80F, UB80F, AA80E, AA81E, AWR10L65. These include trans from Toyota trucks, newer 300/lx600, and high performance ISF, IS500, GSF, LC500. I will refrain from posting the table as I haven't verified all the data points and don't want it to be interpreted as truth. I even asked it to compare to other trucks and it was comparable, even 2500/3500 models.
Take this information as you will, but beyond 230F seem to universally be caution range. I was getting 230-240F in the TC just driving around my neighborhood without Aux cooler and pin. (Most of the roads in my neighborhood are 10-15 degrees, 17-27% grade, 25 mph speed limit so lots of gear 2,3 no lockup). I put my iPhone on the sideway to measure). Even aux, no pin I was getting those temps.
yes thank you. I used that information to baseline/verify the response chatgpt gave for our model. its response was consistent with the information in the FSM, so I took that as a sign that it knew what it was talking about for the other trans.
