GFCI outlet question

[CSteppe82]

My house is under contract and when they did the inspection he found several gfci outlets that weren't grounded (kitchen & bathroom) . I told the buyer that I would have it repaired/replaced. How can I ground the gfci if I don't have a ground wire ??

Thanks
Chad

 

[CSteppe82]

Typo : future buyer

 

[kybishop]

I am NOT an electrician and codes differ state to state. This is just what I know from personal DIY experience. With that;

Is it old wiring that actually does not have a ground wire at all or new wiring that the ground was just not hooked up? Are some of them grounded and some added later? Also you can wire it with just one GFCI tied to several outlets so that they all trip with it instead of multiple GFCI outlets. You can also have a GFCI breaker in the panel and standard outlets all tied to it. That is what I did in our kitchen but that is getting away from your question...

Wiring Multiple GFCI outlets

If you don't have a ground wire at all you would need to run a separate ground wire to all the outlets and back to the main panel ground. If some of the outlets on that circuit are grounded you can run a ground from the easiest or closest one.

 

[PAToyota]

How old is the house? No grounds? Pretty much have to run a ground wire, but could “cheat” and run a ground to a nearby metallic water line.

 

[mdsims]

@PAToyota That is terrible advice. Doing that, and having a real ground fault in the system, will electrify your water lines. If timed correctly, you can get a nice shock when turning on a faucet, or worse.

You CANNOT ground anything if you don't have a ground wire (EGC, equipment grounding conductor, the typically bare copper wire snaking in and out of each junction box). Don't ground the GFCI. What the inspector found was not a code violation. It's just an old installation, period.

Per NEC 406.4(D)(2)(b), you can install a GFCI device on an ungrounded circuit. It sounds like that is what you have already. That’s better than doing nothing as it does provide personnel protection and some equipment protections too. Install a GFCI as the first device on each circuit you want to protect. You have to label the GFCI ‘No equipment ground’, the same labeling goes for devices downstream but only if they have the third hold for the U ground.

GFCI’s work by monitoring current balance between the line and neutral wires, not by presence of a ground wire. It’s assumed that if there is a current imbalance, current is being lost somewhere in the system, most commonly a ground fault.

Best solution, and the most costly, is pulling in new romex with a ground. Too costly, you're selling, don't bother!

@CSteppe82 If you want a copy of the code section, I'll send it to you.

 

[PAToyota]

Actually, NEC Section 250.104(A) requires a metal water piping system to be bonded back to the electrical service to ensure that the metal water pipe is at the same zero voltage to ground as the service grounded conductor and also to ensure that there is a path back to the service for electrical current flow if the metal water pipe becomes energized.

The problem is that more and more non-metallic water piping systems are being put in place - and that repairs are likely to be non-metallic rather than metallic. You’re supposed to install a jumper across a non-metallic “patch” in a metallic system, but I’m going to guess that many aren’t doing it unless it needs to be inspected.

 

[mdsims]

Actually, NEC Section 250.104(A) requires a metal water piping system to be bonded back to the electrical service to ensure that the metal water pipe is at the same zero voltage to ground as the service grounded conductor and also to ensure that there is a path back to the service for electrical current flow if the metal water pipe becomes energized.

The problem is that more and more non-metallic water piping systems are being put in place - and that repairs are likely to be non-metallic rather than metallic. You’re supposed to install a jumper across a non-metallic “patch” in a metallic system, but I’m going to guess that many aren’t doing it unless it needs to be inspected.

Sure, water pipes are typically BONDED within a specified distance of the incoming service..supposed to be bonded, who knows if they ever were or still are. That's for safety, not to be replied upon for everyday operation. So you tell me what the path of least resistance is: a wet hand on a faucet 4' from an outlet, or the crusty bonding jumper 150' of snaking galvanized water pipe away...

The NEC is also super clear on not deriving separate grounds in the field!

Chad is here asking a legitimate question, trying to do the right thing by the buyer of his home, leaning on our advice. It's irresponsible and unsafe to give him the advice you provided, jokingly or not. That's all I'm saying.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

realistically, he should not trust any advice he hasn't paid someone to be liable for giving him in this particular situation. to fix it "right" could be costly. might call local building inspectors to ask them what the minimum allowable fix would be. Being that such a fix would be governed by the local inspecting department, it should be fixed according to local standards, which vary by region greatly. I have no meaningful silver bullets to offer here. GLWS.