Maybe a blinking Fan-Off warning light?
Fun with Electric FAN's (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter mattman555
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- Thread starter
- #22
Here is the post where I stole the idea to place the temp gauge for my HPC Controller.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/574207-koso-slim-water-temp-gauge-install.html
I'd like to install a digital gauge like this one, only with an blinking light, or some sort of alarm.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/574207-koso-slim-water-temp-gauge-install.html
I'd like to install a digital gauge like this one, only with an blinking light, or some sort of alarm.
good job man, can't wait to see how it does in the summer. I upgraded to thicker fluid in the fan clutch and still at least once a year my AC will kick off because of high temps. And my AC always sucks if my truck has to sit in the sun.
- Thread starter
- #24
Thank you... I should have my TLC at the next CSC Phoenix meeting on 12/20 if you care to check out the fan.
SPAL are the go-to product for aftermarket radiator cooling fans.
Nice setup...hope it works well for you, I don't think you can go wrong with SPAL as long as you have the proper wiring and power to feed the fans, and they are the proper size and power rating. I would assume 40 to 60 amp fuses would be mandetory.
The real test for this setup will be in the summer with the a/c going on a long extended hill climb, or towing in the summer, or HD off-road use.
Nice setup...hope it works well for you, I don't think you can go wrong with SPAL as long as you have the proper wiring and power to feed the fans, and they are the proper size and power rating. I would assume 40 to 60 amp fuses would be mandetory.
The real test for this setup will be in the summer with the a/c going on a long extended hill climb, or towing in the summer, or HD off-road use.
I don't see where you mentioned it, but you may want to wire up the fans to also come on with the AC compressor. The condensor always wants air moving through it with the AC on or in can result in high pressure or overheat the compressor. I ruined mine when I was running Spal electric fans.
Bill
Bill
- Thread starter
- #27
Thanks for the questions....
Relays and Wiring -
Per the SPAL specs/documentation at max CFM the Fans will draw ~14AMPS and they recommend a 30AMPS fuse. When I talked with SPAL they confirmed these specs but suggested I go with a 40AMP fuse and 10 Gauge wires tip to tail.
All FAN feed and ground wiring is 10 Gauge, combined with 10 Gauge SPAL extension cables and crimped quite nicely with the tool I mentioned in the orginal post.
I choose the Buelers 40/60 relay because their run time rating matched very well with the fuse rating and I wanted to ensure I selected a relay that would be reliable and hold up in this circuit.
AC Compressor -
The HPC controller has a Blue wire that could be used for an automated AC compressor turn on. I choose to make this a manual switch as I wanted manual control over high / low. I'm sure in designs to come I will develop this to have both. But for now manual is okay.
Time will only tell how effective my layout is. I did put a lot of thought in to the design and I would assume I'll have some issues here and there. I'm looking forward to the challenge and I'll adjust as needed.
Thanks...
Relays and Wiring -
Per the SPAL specs/documentation at max CFM the Fans will draw ~14AMPS and they recommend a 30AMPS fuse. When I talked with SPAL they confirmed these specs but suggested I go with a 40AMP fuse and 10 Gauge wires tip to tail.
All FAN feed and ground wiring is 10 Gauge, combined with 10 Gauge SPAL extension cables and crimped quite nicely with the tool I mentioned in the orginal post.
I choose the Buelers 40/60 relay because their run time rating matched very well with the fuse rating and I wanted to ensure I selected a relay that would be reliable and hold up in this circuit.
AC Compressor -
The HPC controller has a Blue wire that could be used for an automated AC compressor turn on. I choose to make this a manual switch as I wanted manual control over high / low. I'm sure in designs to come I will develop this to have both. But for now manual is okay.
Time will only tell how effective my layout is. I did put a lot of thought in to the design and I would assume I'll have some issues here and there. I'm looking forward to the challenge and I'll adjust as needed.
Thanks...
Maybe I missed it, but are you using the stock Alternator? Looks like a good setup/combination you have come up with. One thing I've noticed in some of the OEM electric fan setups and even on the dual fan setup from spal...(the one that come with its own mout/shroud for I think its dual 12 inch fans. Is that they have small rubber (unsure of the proper name) "flapper valves" that let air come through the shroud at vehicle speed but presumably would close at low vehicle speed. I believe these are for the purpose of helping air across the radiator at hwy speeds...in place of just having s solid mass to hinder air flow. You might want to check that out? I've never seen the "flapper valves" for sale anywhere...but clearly they are installed even on the SPAL setup and I've noticed the same on some other OEM setups. Might be something to look at. I don't think you will have any cooling issues at idle or low vehicle speed (off road) as long as the fans are setup right (which it appears they are). THe test will be under vehicle load at speed with AC on. I think one issue facing the 80 as well as the 60s and other...is the limited grill area.
Look at you OEM fan shroud and noitice how it extends rearward from the core of the radiator...and then slops towards the fan blade openeing... this gap at the rear of the radiator allows air to flow through the radiator at vehicle speed).. Just a note...if your shroud sits tight against the core of the radiator....I believe you may have issue with enough air passing through the entire core of the radiator...of course it will pass through where the fan openings are but..I think thats what the flapper valves allow. You will also notice better A/C functionality the better you can allow air across the entire radiator core and condensor.
see here a link to one of the spal products...hard to see in this pic but notice the little square blocks at the top and bottom of the fan shroud. Those are rubber and that open to allow air to pass through at vehicle speed (my view). I've seen other OEM applications where the flapper valves are located where there is a good bit of flat space not taken up by the fan opening.
https://webstore.spalusa.com/en-us/...va50-ap70-ll-ap72-ll-f-66a-12-p-12v-pksl.aspx
look here at the third and fourth picture, where you can see a side view of the fan shroud that slee setup.
http://www.sleeoffroad.com/project_vehicles/v8-80/v8-80.htm
I know you have limited space...but its something you might want to consider before summer hits. I had a similar fan setup on my 60...dual ford contur fans and it is/was my view that the flat aluminum shroud/fan mount blocked a lot of air at vehicle speed from passing through the radiator. I went to a mechanical fan setup that matched my engine (GM V8)... I never took the time to test the flapper valves...but clearly they are in use and certainly if SPAL is using them and OEM too...then they do serve a purpose and I believe it assists with cooling at vehicle speed, since most electric fans mount either to the radiator core, shroud or similar type setup on a flat surface. Check it out and see what you think.
Look at you OEM fan shroud and noitice how it extends rearward from the core of the radiator...and then slops towards the fan blade openeing... this gap at the rear of the radiator allows air to flow through the radiator at vehicle speed).. Just a note...if your shroud sits tight against the core of the radiator....I believe you may have issue with enough air passing through the entire core of the radiator...of course it will pass through where the fan openings are but..I think thats what the flapper valves allow. You will also notice better A/C functionality the better you can allow air across the entire radiator core and condensor.
see here a link to one of the spal products...hard to see in this pic but notice the little square blocks at the top and bottom of the fan shroud. Those are rubber and that open to allow air to pass through at vehicle speed (my view). I've seen other OEM applications where the flapper valves are located where there is a good bit of flat space not taken up by the fan opening.
https://webstore.spalusa.com/en-us/...va50-ap70-ll-ap72-ll-f-66a-12-p-12v-pksl.aspx
look here at the third and fourth picture, where you can see a side view of the fan shroud that slee setup.
http://www.sleeoffroad.com/project_vehicles/v8-80/v8-80.htm
I know you have limited space...but its something you might want to consider before summer hits. I had a similar fan setup on my 60...dual ford contur fans and it is/was my view that the flat aluminum shroud/fan mount blocked a lot of air at vehicle speed from passing through the radiator. I went to a mechanical fan setup that matched my engine (GM V8)... I never took the time to test the flapper valves...but clearly they are in use and certainly if SPAL is using them and OEM too...then they do serve a purpose and I believe it assists with cooling at vehicle speed, since most electric fans mount either to the radiator core, shroud or similar type setup on a flat surface. Check it out and see what you think.
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understand where you are coming from, I looked at Summit racing electric fan shroud kits- and they dont appear to have extra pas through, but- majority have some type of tapering.
I did some google research and did find this design though....
seems it would be a solution for highway speed air volume passage....
I did some google research and did find this design though....
seems it would be a solution for highway speed air volume passage....
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this is a good video to watch...on related subject
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnmeqHzoTtw
flapper door ... flapper valve...
I guess its a custom made kind of deal, when I was just now using google, I came across a few hot rod guys who made their own...
allowing air to pass through the entire radiator core at speed is essential to cooling, and to the extent you can, the shroud should facilitate that on a mechanical fan setup like is illustrated with OEM fan shrouds and a good pic or two on the slee site where you can see the setback of the rear of the shroud in relationship to the radiator core. Along the same line of thought is the use of the flapper valve or door where you have a electric fan mount that sits tight to the rear of the radiator core (flat surface)...which inhibits air flow through the full core at speed. It does make a big difference on cooling at speed, because the efficiency of the fan is reduced at speed and you can have the shielded part of the radiator core get rather hot in comparison to the part where the fan opening is. Its deceiving how well the fans can cool at idle / low speed and when you get at spped you have problems. Go check out some cars with OEM electric fans. I don't recall which cars I've seen with the flapper doors but they are out there.
If you have the room and the expertise I think the optimal solution would be to have a shroud shaped in such a way to support the electric fans but have enough setback from the radiator core and be of such design that it allows the fans to pull air across the entire core. WIth a flat solid wall type arrangement (which I had too)...the fans are effective around their opening area...but greatly reduced effectiveness as you move toward the left and right edge of the core and the top and bottom.
There may be an optimal distance to maintain with an electric fan vs. the distance to the core. For the electric fans to work optimally in regard to pulling air there may be some magic distance that should be maintained.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnmeqHzoTtw
flapper door ... flapper valve...
I guess its a custom made kind of deal, when I was just now using google, I came across a few hot rod guys who made their own...
allowing air to pass through the entire radiator core at speed is essential to cooling, and to the extent you can, the shroud should facilitate that on a mechanical fan setup like is illustrated with OEM fan shrouds and a good pic or two on the slee site where you can see the setback of the rear of the shroud in relationship to the radiator core. Along the same line of thought is the use of the flapper valve or door where you have a electric fan mount that sits tight to the rear of the radiator core (flat surface)...which inhibits air flow through the full core at speed. It does make a big difference on cooling at speed, because the efficiency of the fan is reduced at speed and you can have the shielded part of the radiator core get rather hot in comparison to the part where the fan opening is. Its deceiving how well the fans can cool at idle / low speed and when you get at spped you have problems. Go check out some cars with OEM electric fans. I don't recall which cars I've seen with the flapper doors but they are out there.
If you have the room and the expertise I think the optimal solution would be to have a shroud shaped in such a way to support the electric fans but have enough setback from the radiator core and be of such design that it allows the fans to pull air across the entire core. WIth a flat solid wall type arrangement (which I had too)...the fans are effective around their opening area...but greatly reduced effectiveness as you move toward the left and right edge of the core and the top and bottom.
There may be an optimal distance to maintain with an electric fan vs. the distance to the core. For the electric fans to work optimally in regard to pulling air there may be some magic distance that should be maintained.
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http://www.superchevy.com/technical..._a_lite_chevy_corvette_radiator_electric_fan/
here is a link showing (not the best view)... of the slope from the outer edge of the fan shroud towards the fan opening. and notice how the shroud covers the size of the radiator core.
here is a link showing (not the best view)... of the slope from the outer edge of the fan shroud towards the fan opening. and notice how the shroud covers the size of the radiator core.
- Thread starter
- #32
Thanks for all the details and the thought you put into in to your comments. I do appreciate it. Please keep the good ideas and creative comments a coming as they will only help the overall design for all.
As you can tell from this post this is a work in progress and thought its functioning properly right now I’m still working out the finer details / enhancements around it. I’d recommend others planning on doing an install based on this post that they really do their homework to ensure it is a good fit for them.
Yes I have an upgraded alternator. However that is a different post -- I’ll add this information to my main post.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/758132-160amp-alternators-ebay-135-shipped.html
My shroud does not rest on the Radiator core, in fact the Spectra Radiator has engine sided vertical edging that runs the vertical length of the radiator, this edging is ~.5” away from the radiator core. This is where my shroud is touching. My shroud is 1.125” deep, placing my shroud 1.625” away from the core (See PIC) and it covers the entire core. Based on the SPAL fan type that I am using this is pretty much the max depth I could make my shroud. When I measured the intake by Ft/Min my results were very consistent no matter where I placed it on the radiator. If I get some time I’ll post up a pic of these results.
Thank you for the thoughts around the air flaps and slopes, I get what you are saying about both of these items. The Air flaps are something I could consider in future designs. For the slopes -- I wanted to make my shroud to have a slope like the photos however there just wasn’t enough room to be viable solution. The only question I have around these two is -- most of the FAN shrouds (Like the Malibu I was looking at - (More Info Here -- https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/780483-malibu-radiator-electric-fan-swap.html) don’t have air flaps or slopes and they cover the entire radiator core. So maybe these items might be good for overall design but depending on your application not totally necessary. For me I will monitor the cooling efficiencies of the current design and make adjustments from there.
Keep these ideas coming in I really do appreciate all the positive feedback!
As you can tell from this post this is a work in progress and thought its functioning properly right now I’m still working out the finer details / enhancements around it. I’d recommend others planning on doing an install based on this post that they really do their homework to ensure it is a good fit for them.
Yes I have an upgraded alternator. However that is a different post -- I’ll add this information to my main post.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/758132-160amp-alternators-ebay-135-shipped.html
My shroud does not rest on the Radiator core, in fact the Spectra Radiator has engine sided vertical edging that runs the vertical length of the radiator, this edging is ~.5” away from the radiator core. This is where my shroud is touching. My shroud is 1.125” deep, placing my shroud 1.625” away from the core (See PIC) and it covers the entire core. Based on the SPAL fan type that I am using this is pretty much the max depth I could make my shroud. When I measured the intake by Ft/Min my results were very consistent no matter where I placed it on the radiator. If I get some time I’ll post up a pic of these results.
Thank you for the thoughts around the air flaps and slopes, I get what you are saying about both of these items. The Air flaps are something I could consider in future designs. For the slopes -- I wanted to make my shroud to have a slope like the photos however there just wasn’t enough room to be viable solution. The only question I have around these two is -- most of the FAN shrouds (Like the Malibu I was looking at - (More Info Here -- https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/780483-malibu-radiator-electric-fan-swap.html) don’t have air flaps or slopes and they cover the entire radiator core. So maybe these items might be good for overall design but depending on your application not totally necessary. For me I will monitor the cooling efficiencies of the current design and make adjustments from there.
Keep these ideas coming in I really do appreciate all the positive feedback!
MattMan555,
I appreciate you posting this build- I am learning a lot from it! I will start my build next week and will be posting as I go... and I dont think it hurts to include some of these ideas added like the rubber flaps for improved air flow at highway speeds...
I appreciate you posting this build- I am learning a lot from it! I will start my build next week and will be posting as I go...
and I dont think it hurts to include some of these ideas added like the rubber flaps for improved air flow at highway speeds...
- Thread starter
- #34
MattMan555,
I appreciate you posting this build- I am learning a lot from it! I will start my build next week and will be posting as I go...
Hey Thad... thanks for posting up and your welcome... I totally agree I like the idea of the flaps but I'm not quite sure I want to remove my shroud right now to enhance it.
In late December I plan to go from the Phoenix area to Show Low AZ in my TLC. Its 210 Miles each way, elevation in Phoenix is 1100 Feet, toping out a 7500 feet, and then settling in Show Low at 6500 feet. Though it will be cold outside its a trip I often take and I plan to do this again in the summer time.
I was thinking about using my ELM blue tooth ODB-II and record measurements as I go with my phone or Laptop. I haven't done this before and I'm totally open to suggestions (software or things to monitor) I'd be glad to see what I can come up with.
- Thread starter
- #35
Hey All – Happy New Year!
In my last post I talked about posting some measurements on a trip from Phoenix AZ to Show Low AZ.
Well I’m happy to say I completed this trip and the results were very nice. I’ll let the charts speak for themselves but I’m happy with how it performed. I used my Android Phone, a ELM Mini 327, and Torque Pro to measure. Outside Temps during the trip up were 75f – 40f, and going back 50f – 80f
Now before you start barking all over my results – Yes I realize its winter time and yes even in Arizona (Especially the Rim Area) there was a bit of snow on the ground. Just keep in mind I plan to make this run again over the months to come and will record those results. However if there are a few tips you might have around using Torque Pro or other items I should record, then I’m all ears.
Notes around performance and using Torque Pro to measure -
Average Temp was 187f, Low was 167f High was 205f
Torque Pro measured 2609 times during the trip to Show Low and 2657 back to Phoenix. I used excel to count the number of times it measured a temp. This backs up the average of 187f, it seems like my operating temp on this trip really ranged from 180-190f.
Here are the results -
TEMP - Count
167 1
169 1
171 2
172 5
174 1
176 19
178 8
180 15
181 128
183 113
185 714
187 776
189 216
190 522
192 38
194 36
196 5
198 1
199 3
203 1
205 3
I’ve noticed when the vehicle is turn off for fueling, rest stops, and the like the temp will go up. This is noted in the graph as the 205f reading. While in Phoenix I drove for about 20 Miles, stopped for some fuel for about ~15 Mins and the temp went from 190f to 205f. Once I started up the fan went into high mode and very quickly cooled the truck down (< 2 Mins back to 190f)
I noticed when slowing down to go through towns the temp will rise a few degrees but then quickly cools down once on the highway again. I would attribute this cooling effect to the more airflow, similar to what one would expect with flaps. (See Post #29)
I think both of these observations would be common to most vehicles however I don’t have a basis to measure against.
I've attached two pics - 1 is a comparison of Temp To Altitude and 2 is a pic of my TLC at the Woods Canyon Turn off ~7500 Feet
Thanks for reading!
In my last post I talked about posting some measurements on a trip from Phoenix AZ to Show Low AZ.
Well I’m happy to say I completed this trip and the results were very nice. I’ll let the charts speak for themselves but I’m happy with how it performed. I used my Android Phone, a ELM Mini 327, and Torque Pro to measure. Outside Temps during the trip up were 75f – 40f, and going back 50f – 80f
Now before you start barking all over my results – Yes I realize its winter time and yes even in Arizona (Especially the Rim Area) there was a bit of snow on the ground. Just keep in mind I plan to make this run again over the months to come and will record those results. However if there are a few tips you might have around using Torque Pro or other items I should record, then I’m all ears.
Notes around performance and using Torque Pro to measure -
Average Temp was 187f, Low was 167f High was 205f
Torque Pro measured 2609 times during the trip to Show Low and 2657 back to Phoenix. I used excel to count the number of times it measured a temp. This backs up the average of 187f, it seems like my operating temp on this trip really ranged from 180-190f.
Here are the results -
TEMP - Count
167 1
169 1
171 2
172 5
174 1
176 19
178 8
180 15
181 128
183 113
185 714
187 776
189 216
190 522
192 38
194 36
196 5
198 1
199 3
203 1
205 3
I’ve noticed when the vehicle is turn off for fueling, rest stops, and the like the temp will go up. This is noted in the graph as the 205f reading. While in Phoenix I drove for about 20 Miles, stopped for some fuel for about ~15 Mins and the temp went from 190f to 205f. Once I started up the fan went into high mode and very quickly cooled the truck down (< 2 Mins back to 190f)
I noticed when slowing down to go through towns the temp will rise a few degrees but then quickly cools down once on the highway again. I would attribute this cooling effect to the more airflow, similar to what one would expect with flaps. (See Post #29)
I think both of these observations would be common to most vehicles however I don’t have a basis to measure against.
I've attached two pics - 1 is a comparison of Temp To Altitude and 2 is a pic of my TLC at the Woods Canyon Turn off ~7500 Feet
Thanks for reading!
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Hey mattman555, how's your setup doing now that we've got real heat here in the Valley?
I see you have some numbers for your dual fan setup. Can you tell us how the airflow of your new setup compares to the stock single belt driven fan?
RockJock82
Sometimes you have to kick a little A$$
If I remember correctly the fans he used pull ~1600 cfm each. So 3200 cfm consistently.
Rockjock- I was asking how that number compared to the stock fan setup. Also not sure you would add those numbers since they are smaller fans both pulling the same cfm over the same surface, so I believe the number would just be 1600cfm, but over a larger surface because you have 2 fans. Someone who knows this stuff please jump in for clarification.
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