For John. N74L vs N101

[dclee]

Derek,

It sounds like you are of the opinion that only Darren and Slee should post since they are "experts".

Not at all. But observations and opinions are a far cry from fact and truth, the latter of which is how John always portrays his comments. All I'm saying is, on a technical forum, call it what it is, an observation. I have no problems with John or anyone else posting observations or opinions, or even (gasp) fact and truth, as long as they are presented as such. But John likes to make blanket statements that he passes off as fact because his wheeling buddies agree with him, or his wife thinks so, when in fact they are merely observations or opinions.

It also annoys me that he calls out people to prove themselves, when they have already done that all along with their words and actions, and more importantly, their histories in the sport, to a much greater degree than himself.

So, you could say I take issue with the behavior, not the person. I'm sure John is a great guy in person. But I only have his presentation on this forum to go by. Notice that I don't really have anything disparaging to say about ANYONE ELSE on this forum, because no one else really acts the way John does.

And since when do pictures not "mean squat". Oh wait, you and Nolan said so, so it must be true. I don't even think we need a disclaimer, I think everyone knows the pictures were not taken under labratory conditions, to exacting scientific standards.

If that's the case, as you acknowledge, then they should not be used to prove a factual statement.

Sure, enjoy them for what they are: graphical representations of what a Cruiser is capable of. NOT a technical analysis that proves a hypothesis of how a particular modification improves performance.

 

[calamaridog]

Derek,

99% of the posts in this forum are based upon observation or opinion, not scientifically proven facts. We lend more credit to certain observations than others, based upon the "track record", or experience if you will, of the individual posting the thread. When additional people begin to say the same thing, it lend even more weight to a certain concept.

As far as pictures go, an observation plus a picture is worth much more than a simple write up because you now have more information to base your opinion of a mod upon. Seeing is believing. Pictures speak volumes.

By his own admission, Jonn is not a mechanic or suspension designer, but his observations and opinions should not be disregarded either, since he has considerably more off-road time behind the wheel in his 100 series than 99% of the forum participants.

Considering that most of the threads in this forum have very little off-road related content, I welcome any threads that do.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Not at all. But observations and opinions are a far cry from fact and truth, the latter of which is how John always portrays his comments. All I'm saying is, on a technical forum, call it what it is, an observation. I have no problems with John or anyone else posting observations or opinions, or even (gasp) fact and truth, as long as they are presented as such. But John likes to make blanket statements that he passes off as fact because his wheeling buddies agree with him, or his wife thinks so, when in fact they are merely observations or opinions.

It also annoys me that he calls out people to prove themselves, when they have already done that all along with their words and actions, and more importantly, their histories in the sport, to a much greater degree than himself.

So, you could say I take issue with the behavior, not the person. I'm sure John is a great guy in person. But I only have his presentation on this forum to go by. Notice that I don't really have anything disparaging to say about ANYONE ELSE on this forum, because no one else really acts the way John does.





If that's the case, as you acknowledge, then they should not be used to prove a factual statement.

Sure, enjoy them for what they are: graphical representations of what a Cruiser is capable of. NOT a technical analysis that proves a hypothesis of how a particular modification improves performance.

Derek: Forum...shmorum Factual...tactual Annoy...ashmoy

If you can't get past the personalities and simply look at the DATA and the TEST RESULTS presented in this thread...then simply don't read it. UNSUBSCRIBE

What counts is the in-field testing. Forget what I've reported about this for a moment. If even a friggin' passenger (like my wife) can tell a big difference before and after, then that's important to bring up to the thread. If a friend or enemy in another rig can see BY SIGHT the improvements, then that's worth reporting too.

How do you buy a speaker, or a TV? Read the technical specs, or listen to the speaker and look at the TV? Specs smecks. What sounds best and looks best wins!

Screw the technical mumbo-jumbo and listen to the RESULTS! If you can't do this...UNSUBSCRIBE. It's that simple. Or, start a new thread about my in-forum horrific personality, but DON'T set aside my results when you've not tested the same setup yourself. That misleads others considering the mod and they might suffer.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

99%

Careful Dog. Some who post here might argue with your numerical statistic.

 

[FirstToy]

debating for less information, tech info and facts. That's a novel concept.

Read Christo's and DMC's posts, they are saying [gain knowledge and real understanding of how things work] and [don't mislead people that may take wrong info as gospel].

It's the 'give a man a fish/ teach a man how to fish' scenario. At least w/ Christo & DMC's shared knowledge, I can apply it to future projects. Problem solve, create new solutions and better understand what is going on.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

debating for less information, tech info and facts. That's a novel concept.

Read Christo's and DMC's posts, they are saying [gain knowledge and real understanding of how things work] and [don't mislead people that may take wrong info as gospel].

It's the 'give a man a fish/ teach a man how to fish' scenario. At least w/ Christo & DMC's shared knowledge, I can apply it to future projects. Problem solve, create new solutions and better understand what is going on.

This sounds like a post from you Toy. Wake up!

So let me get this straight.........in order for someone to modifiy their rig and say it's made a notable difference, they first should be tech savvy and know the lingo?

Wow, so all the people in the world who buy a Cruiser, slap a lift kit on it and then tell others that it helped out on the trail should first "gain the understanding of how it works" before they speak"?

Are you (and others) nuts? Any moron can ride in my 100 before the mod and after and tell the difference. You don't need to know jack about tech (like Becky) to tell the difference.

What a thought.....for someone to see why one TV's picture looks better than another, one must first understand how they work inside the guts? WAKE UP!

And to set you and everyone straight: My words on the improvements to my 100 are "gospel" as they've been proven on the trails. If you don't like the outcome then UNSUBSCRIBE. If the NEGATIVO postees in this thread discourage others to settle for 100-shocks, then the NEGATIVO'S have done a big injustice.

 

[FirstToy]

This sounds like a post from you Toy. Wake up!

So let me get this straight.........in order for someone to modifiy their rig and say it's made a huge difference, they first should be tech savvy and know the lingo?

Wow, so all the people in the world who buy a Cruiser, slap a lift kit on it and then tell others that it helped out on the trail should first "gain the understanding of how it works" before they speak"?

Are you (and others) nuts? Any moron can ride in my 100 before the mod and after and tell the difference. You don't need to know jack about tech (like Becky) to tell the difference.

What a thought.....for someone to see why one TV's picture looks better than another, one must first understand how they work inside the guts? WAKE UP!

And to set you and everyone straight: My words on the improvements to my 100 are "gospel" as they've been proven on the trails. If you don't like the outcome then UNSUBSCRIBE.

Pathetic. I said none of those things. (edit- and why my sig line remains)

No matter how many times it is said, you never get it.
Information=good. Facts=good. Learning suspension dynamics=good.

That has nothing to do with your shock mod. You just assume that facts and truth are somehow slamming you.

It is always good to know the WHY and HOW. That is called a foundation that may help the owner in the future on other mods & problem solving.

If you put shotts on the ignore list, skim all the posts repeating facts to shotts & just read the tech--- there is alot of good info a 100 (or any LC owner) can put in the bank to create something much more.

This should be the goal of tech.

When someone advocates ignorance, that should be a red flag. Or not; that's the choice of anyone that reads this thread.

 

[dclee]

Derek,

99% of the posts in this forum are based upon observation or opinion, not scientifically proven facts. We lend more credit to certain observations than others, based upon the "track record", or experience if you will, of the individual posting the thread. When additional people begin to say the same thing, it lend even more weight to a certain concept.

I'll reiterate. I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with observations or opinions. Most of what I post here is of that variety. However, what I object to is passing off observations or opinions as FACT.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Pathetic. I said none of those things. (edit- and why my sig line remains)

No matter how many times it is said, you never get it.
Information=good. Facts=good. Learning suspension dynamics=good.

That has nothing to do with your shock mod. You just assume that facts and truth are somehow slamming you.

It is always good to know the WHY and HOW. That is called a foundation that may help the owner in the future on other mods & problem solving.

If you put shotts on the ignore list, skim all the posts repeating facts to shotts & just read the tech--- there is alot of good info a 100 (or any LC owner) can put in the bank to create something much more.

This should be the goal of tech.

When someone advocates ignorance, that should be a red flag. Or not; that's the choice of anyone that reads this thread.

Whatever dude. It's apparent why you posted those comments and re-posted ATS's and Slee's words above.

If you want to get all techy, go for it.

One doesn't HAVE to know WHY something is better than something else, just that it IS better. I don't care why the N74L improved my 100 so much, just that IT DID.

Why don't you or somebody else start a new thread titled:

"WHY DOES THE N74L SHOCK IMPROVE THE 100 OFF-ROAD?"

I won't post but I'll recommend the mod.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

passing off observations or opinions as FACT.

It is a FACT that the shock change has dramatically improved my off-road capability. You show ignorance to even dispute it. You've not tested it. And others already have supported my FACTUAL "observations". Sorry DCLEE....IT'S A FACT and Cruise Moab is over soon. GregB HAS THE BEST 100-SERIES SUSPENSION THERE!

Wake up! The L-shock adds capability to a lifted 80. Why can't it do the same to a lifted 100. The experiment worked. THAT'S A FACT!

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

didn't have a longer travel solution for the 100 when I began this experiment.
If ATS starts a thread on what he does suspension-wise he won't get arguments from me because he's trail tested the setup and I have not. For him or anyone to dispute my findings (especially the way he has done so) without doing their own testing shows one's ignorance or one's rush to judgement.

John,
like I have said numourous times, the mod you have done, we have been doing for years, and we have trail tested it, and tested what you have tried many moons ago, hence why i knew all the details and measurements of what you had done, and was able to knowlegably comment on why what you were doing wasnt the best way to gain what you wanted, though it did offer some improvement.

If an expert who could explain what they did properly, without the poser pics or attitude, i think you would be right, more people would pay attention, but it isnt about the mod itself, like i said, its more about you.[both ways]

Stop contradicting yourself, and speak less, of more quality, and you will get the reactions you are seeking. [or post in chat where you style is expected]

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

Derek,

99% of the posts in this forum are based upon observation or opinion, not scientifically proven facts. We lend more credit to certain observations than others, based upon the "track record", or experience if you will, of the individual posting the thread. When additional people begin to say the same thing, it lend even more weight to a certain concept.

All of this is correct, and while John was trying to add weight to his own subject by posting on it continued opinions of his own, it wasnt until I asked him for test/trail data, and measurements, and what had impoved, that his wheels fell off. So i told him what he had, why it could be improved and what little gain he had achieved. The rest has played out because John is trying to back up what he tried to achieve, without the know how, and continues now to care, not care, and contradict himself as he continually tries to point out others dont know, while he is to pig headed to actually learn anything, which is what got him into the position he is in now.

The reason I did this in this way, was to show that there are more than one way to skin a cat, and dont follow the lead of someone who has the biggest fanfare and poser pics to try and prove a point, because the proof is always in the pudding.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

we have been doing for years, and we have trail tested it, and tested what you have tried many moons ago,

If an expert who could explain

Stop contradicting yourself, and speak less, of more quality, and you will get the reactions you are seeking. [or post in chat where you style is expected]

You're so full of crap it makes me sick. I remember back on 100YAHOO when you and Rod were questioning Doron and me for 100 info.

An expert? You don't have to be an expert ot SLAP A SHOCK ON and drive to see if it helps!

I'm not seeking a reaction. My setup works superbly. You speek of a better idea and have provided NOTHING for the forum.

Get a life. You've been after my hide since I hurt your feelings by saying your 4Runner/GX is not a comparable vehicle overall to a 100. (Same with DCLEE)

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

All of this is correct, and while John was trying to add weight to his own subject by posting on it continued opinions of his own, it wasnt until I asked him for test/trail data, and measurements, and what had impoved, that his wheels fell off. So i told him what he had, why it could be improved and what little gain he had achieved. The rest has played out because John is trying to back up what he tried to achieve, without the know how, and continues now to care, not care, and contradict himself as he continually tries to point out others dont know, while he is to pig headed to actually learn anything, which is what got him into the position he is in now.

The reason I did this in this way, was to show that there are more than one way to skin a cat, and dont follow the lead of someone who has the biggest fanfare and poser pics to try and prove a point, because the proof is always in the pudding.

You are the Aussie version of the US's Ted Kennedy. You're crazy. My wheels never fell off. I stand by my mod and it's results. I need to back up nothing. I only continue on with this for the newbies. They need to know you're full of crap and that the N74L does in fact work.

Attack me personally. I can take it.

So, Mr. ATS Expert. Show us all the details and pics of your supreme rear suspension mod like MANY have asked for? Oh, that's right. You don't have too.

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

So, Mr. ATS Expert. Show us all the details and pics of your supreme rear suspension mod like MANY have asked for? Oh, that's right. You don't have too.

I only heard you asking for pics john, and I have provided more than enough info than any pic would show you, and others, but keep up the charade if you like, I think your actions speak louder than words here, and the true John has become very apparent.

I have nothing to prove here John, because I dont use pics and words to try and improve my standing, and then try and keep it, when things dont add up that i say, and I dont contradict myself, while doing so, I simply try and help anyone who asks, what they do with the info is up to them.

I find Its amazing how well things turn out for me, when Im doing it for the right reasons

 

[calamaridog]

So in summary:

1) John needs to choose more carefully how he represents his observations, making it clear they are observations from a lay-person, not a professionally trained expert.

2) The 863/N74L combination is the best currently available "bolt-in" solution for the rear end of a U.S. spec 100 series.

I think that just about sums it up...


It's amazing how this thread really went to s***, it had so much potential...

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

So in summary:

It's amazing how this thread really went to s***, it had so much potential...

I agree, and didnt expect John to take any where near as long to understand, but going by his last few posts, it would appear he still isnt open enough to get the picture just yet.

As for the mod itself, thats a different issue alltogether.

 

[Imola Red]

Wow....

some of you guys need to get a life.

Notice how nobody here has a problem with John or what he's saying except for the SAME people over and over and over...... and BLAH!!

Grow up.

Until you actually provide some worth at all on this forum ats then why should anybody listen to you? All you do is just come on here and argue the opposite of everything John say's (here comes the quote of what I just said by you replying "because John is always wrong"). It get's old. Who cares if he's not always right or if he is. Who made you the know it all?

Give it up and stop ruining this forum with crap.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

My appologies for getting sucked into the people making all the negative comments about this modification.

My promise from here on out is that I'll stay on task and keep it to the modification itself so others will benefit the way I did. That is the whole reason I keep this thread going anyhow.

I expect only positive comments from those who have made this shock change. Time will tell. Thanks!

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

Wow....

some of you guys need to get a life.

Notice how nobody here has a problem with John or what he's saying except for the SAME people over and over and over...... and BLAH!!

Grow up.

Until you actually provide some worth at all on this forum ats then why should anybody listen to you? All you do is just come on here and argue the opposite of everything John say's (here comes the quote of what I just said by you replying "because John is always wrong"). It get's old. Who cares if he's not always right or if he is. Who made you the know it all?

Give it up and stop ruining this forum with crap.

Well, all the data worth reading is there, but your free, just as am I, to post what we like, wether it be right or wrong.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it think


John,
great on the mod, I think everyone knows the mod is ok, no one actually has a problem with the mod, heck, we have been doing it [though with more travel] for years, so we understand it, and know it inside out, we have just been trying to help you do the same.