[ats4x4dotcom]

OK, thought it may be good to put together the building of my next vehicle, with afew idea's to improve travel, ride, and handling, as I turn it from a stolen and recovered write off, into a capable mountain country and desert traveller, making a good all rounder, on a budget.
I found a 11/95 GXL 80 442 auto, 4.5 petrol cruiser with 260k km for the right price from a wholesaler, not the ideal color we wanted, but when its cheap, cant be to fussy.
day 1, purchase. Vehicle had centre dash area missing, and left hand front fender dinged, everything else was good as can be, well serviced, toyota coolant, auto just serviced, oils chnaged recently, new radiator recently, and good road tyres on it, with pencil shavings and hair clips in the back, it was a mums taxi, with no offroading, but some dirt road work.




As we progress, i will detail what we did, how we did it, and what we found before, and after.

[CJBury]

subscribed.

[CreeperSleeper]

Originally Posted by CJBury

subscribed.

x2... This should help my "I really want another 80" syndrome.

[FirstToy]

nice! can't wait to see what magic you throw at it

engine looks really well taken care of

[ats4x4dotcom]

Thanks guys, heres some suspension pics I am working on.

Day 2

Part of the plan is to run less than 3" of suspension lift, but use extra long shocks, and spec some coils to stay captive with all the extra travel we get fromt he shocks, but with valving that works on a touring truck, rather than a long shock that isnt suitable. We have had some 700mm long front shocks made, with same valving as the silver series stuff we developed earlier, over a std 2" lift shock which is around 615mm and fitted some 40mm front bump stops, to stop the 37's from eating the flares.
The coils I have used are a KING 4" lift, [ignore the yellow, production color is silver like these]

so same as our real 3", in the rates I want to use, as we have done 864 and 850 rate equivalant previously with extra free height, and I wanted a lighter rate spring more like 860 rears, and fronts, for those not so heavy, but the KINGS are way to short at full droop for the shock lengths we are running, so i have specced some details, and having some coils made with taller free height, and same ride hieght, and rates.

we also extended the front sway bar links 70mm to stop the front tailshaft hitting on the sway bar, it now just clears.

I then added 2 deg bushes, to help with flex, and slotted the front holes 14mm to give me 2 deg castor, which we like to see, 2-2.5 with bigger tyres and 3" lift.

I then had to grind the casting lump off the front control arms to prevent the steering arm from rubbing.

I then measured up these little plates, so I can drill the chassis mounts for the front control arms 12mm further forward, to move the axle forward, and help fit the 37's without to much fender trimming. These plates will fit over the existing hole, once its slotted 12mm more, and weld on around the outside. Previously we had machined the eye of the control arm 2mm bigger dia and used castor correction bushes.

In the rear we went to a 740mm long shock, 40mm bump spacers, inner and outer, and extended sway bar links, so the sway bars dont impede on full extension, or compression.

To fit a bush top shock, so as not to side load the seals/shaft of the longer shock, I made these adaptor plates to fit the top and replace the factory items.

I have some 37" Pro Comp muds laying around, so will fit those, along with some 17 x 8 rims, to help keep the 37's inside the flares, and stop rubbing on the turns, and compression. Here they are bolted on.


I have made up some mounts to fit a Fox steering damper, as they have been extremely good for larger tyres in my experience on my previous vehicles.


I have also picked up a Vortech supercharger kit for a 95 on 4.5 petrol, with mounts, exhaust, belt, pulley, off a running vehicle, for a basement price, so this will be added along with a microtech computer, so we can run some extra oomph at the rear wheels. The microtech will plug onto the toyota loom, so i can plug back into the standard computer, remove the belt, and put the standard intake hose back on, if I ever need to limp home.

Going to 4.88 diff ratio's, and the 3.11 marks transfer case gears as well, to cope with the 37's and give me a gear lower than 1st low, along with lock up torque convertor, with in built switch to dash to lock up/unlock from Wholesale auto's and valve body from Rodney as well, to suit. Im looking forward to trying this set up, as it offers the best of all worlds, 2 pedals, lock up for downhills, and a lower low range.

Bar here tomorrow, so will get that on shortly. Air freighted it in from Slee Offroad along with some other gear.


Will go to Fox bolt ons down the track after development is done on the current shocks, like these I do for patrol.



Inside, I have a storage system I used for my prado, and had in my gq wagon, which will go in next week, will add pics as we go. Engel water tank between mesh frame and back seat with storage under, 60lt engel on slide one side, and 40lt slide containerised on the other, storage either side of frame, short barrier, and able to stack on level above fridge slides as well.


I need to get VIV inspection and reg done before to much more is added, that is all scheduled for next week, then we head off to Rodney at Wholesale automatic in Bayswater, and do some auto mods to cope with the supercharger install.

[Alvaro]

Congratulations, excellent job so far, truck looks great, can't wait to see what's next. Do you have some pictures of the engel water tank? was looking at their website but there are no pictures either.

Regards from south america.

[Doc]

Wow!

[e9999]

nice fabbing job! do you do that all yourself?

I thought that 37"s etc were had to have permitted in Oz. Depends on state?

[Lugboot]

Subscribed!

[Atticus]

Subscribed.

[FJBen]

awesome, subscribed....

waiting for you to put the "L" shocks on for HUGE flex

[cruiserdan]

Originally Posted by Atticus

Subscribed.

Ditto...

[ats4x4dotcom]

Originally Posted by e9999

nice fabbing job! do you do that all yourself?

I thought that 37"s etc were had to have permitted in Oz. Depends on state?

We do some fab work in house, and I have a guy who is semi retired, works from home, who has a lathe and a mill, so I give him designs, and he makes them for me.

He is also aon good terms with the platers, and we polish the alloy parts here.

Cant wait to get those yellow coils out.

And yes, 37"s arent "legal" here,

Oh, and I got Christo to send me a slide out cupholder, with the bull bar, that will be one of the most important mods, to make sure the coffee doesnt get spilled....

mmmmmmcccoofffffeeeeeeeeeeeeee..........

[CJBury]

I really like what you have done with the 80. That seems like the perfect set up for the type of wheeling that I do. East coast USA. Off camber with rocks into trees. I like the idea of larger tires with minium lift. You have a low center of gravity with 37's. How much triming do you think it will need? I also like what you have done with clearancing all the odds and ends. Is this a prelude to a U.S. available kit?

Oh and the coffee cup holder is a mandatory mod.

[Uncle Meat]

[Nay]

What are your travel ratios up/down with the extra travel shocks and longer springs running 37" tires? I'm guessing about 12" of travel, but how much can you really have in up travel on a 3" lift with 37's and intact flares? Will she run fast on those outback roads?

I like it - it just seems tuned for crawling with the spring/shock/tire size you have designed. This is something of the anti-OME, and for that you get and my encouragement that this would sell very well in the U.S. market if in fact you can get it tuned to run 37's on a 3" lift with at least 4" of up travel with reasonable load bearing.

I'm also curious how you got the extra spring length without going to a substantially lower spring rate (progressive?)? I think long spring/lower rate with extremely high quality shocks to allow a focus on suspension down travel is a simply excellent idea for the 80, and one for which I look forward to hearing the results.

[ats4x4dotcom]

We have around 100-110mm [4-41/2 "] up travel to the bump stop in the front, and 120-130 5-51/2"] ish mm in the rear, giving me my favorite option of 1/3 up and 2/3 down travel, so, with the shocks running within one inch of bottoming with our 40mm [1.5"] bump spacers, with a 12" stroke front shock, valved to suit a well equipped cruiser, and the shock length goes close to bottoming the steering tie rods, and we will set the adj panhard rod angled, so it compresses the bush easier on up travel, and will allow full droop without binding, now, as per this pic,

We have also machined new alloy housings for the internal bump stop cushion to move it down 40mm also, and with this spacing, on the 17 x 8 rims, the tyres just touch on full compression, on part lock, and moving the front axle forward with these

will prevent any tyre rubbing, with only a slight modification to the rear of front fender, around the mudflap, with a hammer, to make some room, while keeping it looking factory.

In the rear, we are using a 12.5" stroke shock, that is also close to fully compressed when car is on bump stops, so I get maximum droop from the shock length Im using, when the bump spacers are installed, to help fit the tyres. The rear tyres are rubbing on the mudflap area at compression in the rear, and some "massaging" and if required, a 1/2" body lift, using all the factory bolts will be added, to help with clearance.

If you look closely at this pic,

you can just see the middle bump cushion extension sticking up over the coil at the bottom, and the alloy spacer under the chassis bump stop. The internal one bolts to the hole on the housing spring seat.

The sway bar extension lengths are critical, so they dont limit up, or down travel with the shocks we are using. The fronts with the new shocks we have had to go to 70mm extended, rather than 40mm to prevent the sway bar hitting the front tailshaft at full droop.


Yesterday, taking the car out for a run, we jumped the vehicle twice, where we have an old train station platfrom we can jump up onto, and after turning off the road at over 65mph into the bumpy gravel section, sliding tail out left, then right, and adding some brake, to stready the car as we hit the up onto the platform, and the car went up, and down, very nicely, and had no tyre rub, and the suspension is working very well, and will improve, once we add some weight in accesories.

We also have a back small gravel road in an industrial area, badly corrugated and big potholes like 4 ft round, and up to 8" deep, with a 45 deg corner on it, where it is worst for bumps, and generaly a good handling lifted 4wd should be able to go around there at up to 85 mph, [and we do regularly] in a nice 4 wheel slide, controlled, but quick, yesterday at 65mph, the car was very composed, no bucking, no understeer, no oversteer, nothing sudden that could catch you out, so once it has some more power, we will continue to push it, but very happy so far.

Dual batteries were fitted today, and wiring, so will post some more pics [inc water tank] in next few days.

[Nay]

Outstanding. I have been griping for 2 years+ that the 80 stuff on the market has the wrong bias entirely (up travel). The FOR kit was designed to address this to a degree, but you have gone a major step forward in fitting 37's and engineering the 1/3 to 2/3 travel ratio (a rock crawler's ratio for sure )

Still, though, how are those coils giving you 7-8" of droop without coming well off the tower...or are they and you have restrained them? The front I can buy to a degree, but the rear on the 80 is extremely difficult to get the load bearing in the coil rate while also designing a long travel suspension focused largely on droop. Even at 5" of droop you are pushing the limits of keeping a typical 3" coil (250 lb/in or so) seated.

I'm just asking because I'm curious as the spring rate to travel issue is the primary factor in achieving this design balance (rock crawling travel ratios while retaining load bearing on a very heavy rig). My up travel is nearly identical to yours, but you have 2" more down (I'm 50/50 accordingly). I know I could easily run 36" tires on my setup, but 37" would be pushing it even without flares and I'd have coil problems with 2.5" more droop in the rear for sure.

What shock valving have you dialed in if you don't mind saying? Geez this gets me thinking at least 36's...good thing I did those 5.29's

[ats4x4dotcom]

I have had coils made with a taller free height, to stay captive at full droop, effectively a variable rate coil, but the first rate is only 90-120 lb rate, so its compressed at ride height, and keeps the coil trapped at droop, while offering some resistance, when the vehicle comes back onto the coil, in a wheeling situation.

We have managed this by tapering the wire, for the last coil section, to a smaller dia.

I have had these coils made in front and rear for 80/105 for heavy touring wagon, like 864 eq rear, but taller free height, and slightl;y softer rate, so car sits where we want and wont shake your fillings out when some gear is taken out, and we have done an equivelent front coil as well. I also have them for patrol front and rear, in a heavy tourer, and the process of the current coils, with softer rate, more like 860 rear rate, is to spec the spring, and get some of these made as well.

in this pic, you can sort of see the type of design, from my old patrol front coils, which was before we went tapered wire, so we could reduce the amount of upper coils.


This pic below, was when i started playing with the idea back in the mid to late 90's, with my then almost new 80, after having Koni bus shocks re valved to suit the car, in the lengths I wanted, at the time..


Our valving, for the silver series we have put together, is aprox 15% stiffer, for the more lift, and heavier vehicles, over what we had been using in the white series, and probably 20-35% more than some OME shocks, but also works differently with viton seals,a nd better RFA on the shafts to reduce friction, as well as shot peened internals, and a different oil. Build quality of these shocks would be in the same range as Koni, but I prefer the way these shocks work, with less of a pointed "sweet spot" and a longer flatter curve where they are at thier best, especially running larger heavier rim/tyre combination.

[Nay]

Again, outstanding . FOR did the same thing to a far less degree when we were prototyping by adding a small progressive wind to keep the coil captured, and you achieve that nice unloaded road ride without sacrificing load carrying capability. I imagine those coils aren't cheap , but that seems to be exactly what is needed and this is an entire level above the FOR design.

I'll stop asking questions now, outside of "when do you plan to sell it ?" I have been of the view ever since I bought my 80 that this rig is more perfectly suited to the design premise of "maximize the base platform" than any other rig I have even been around. You look to have taken that idea to a new level:

Relatively low lift for road stability/performance including washboard
Maximum tire size for lift height (OME sets you up for 33's at this height )
Suspension design to enable loaded/unloaded configuration without serious detriment (no stinkbug or harsh unloaded ride)
Desirable suspension droop characteristics for crawling

Sign me up to prototype your entry into the US market .

Thanks for the info on shock valving and shocks. I look forward to the long term reports as this setup so completely challenges the "tried and true" belief set on 80 series suspensions on this forum as to inspire a LOL response for me.

[Bikeman]

Darren, will this stuff ever make it to the US soil thru an importer like Slee, especially bolt-in, no-adapter needed, long travel shocks other than OME, or will the stuff stay secret like those Bilsteins you talked about awhile back?.

[landtank]

Originally Posted by Bikeman

Darren, will this stuff ever make it to the US soil thru an importer like Slee, especially bolt-in, no-adapter needed, long travel shocks other than OME, or will the stuff stay secret like those Bilsteins you talked about awhile back?.

I contacted him back in the Bilstein days about getting a set and was told that giving me a price was a waste of my time as I wouldn't be able to afford them.

For better or worse I came away with the idea that they weren't his property as he indicated in his posts.

[Nay]

Originally Posted by Bikeman

Darren, will this stuff ever make it to the US soil thru an importer like Slee, especially bolt-in, no-adapter needed, long travel shocks other than OME, or will the stuff stay secret like those Bilsteins you talked about awhile back?.

Those are looking like the Fox 2.0 5/8" emulsion shocks that appear to be customer tunable for $140/ea (or maybe $190 based on the finish). You could get springs built in the US. If you are really looking to do something like this now, I'd call FOR as the springs would be an extension (literally) of his existing design. The problem with custom springs, though, is you pay for the trial and error. Question is how much risk you build into an existing design to modify the springs on the first attempt?

I will be looking into these shocks, though, as they seem a pretty ideal upgrade for the current 5125 Bilsteins I am running and I'm looking to keep my suspension tuned very much along these lines. I wouldn't mess with my springs unless I was dying for 37's over 36's since I could run 36's now with no additional mods and I've been very happy with the performance of a 50/50 travel ratio on the 80.

Still, to have this kind of down travel with exception road manners is seriously drool worthy. I hope it makes it to market

[ZPDFJ]

Originally Posted by ats4x4dotcom

That is the one and ONLY Nissan i would ever drive, otherwise ALL toyota, THAT THING IS SEXY!!!!

[landtank]

Originally Posted by ZPDFJ

That is the one and ONLY Nissan i would ever drive, otherwise ALL toyota, THAT THING IS SEXY!!!!

also looks like the front left and right rear tire has been greatly aired down to exaggerate the effect of flex.

[toyman317]

Good call Rick.

[Nay]

Originally Posted by landtank

also looks like the front left and right rear tire has been greatly aired down to exaggerate the effect of flex.

That doesn't change the function of the coils in terms of building a progressive wind purely to keep the coils retained without sacrificing road use with a too soft base spring rate.

The ramp is nothing but a measure available shock travel and link restriction on a coil sprung vehicle - it has little to do with suspension dynamics or even rock crawling capability. Nobody takes this line - it is pure posing, so might as well pose as much as possible.

The point of the pic is to show an early model of the upper winds on the coil. Let's stick to a discussion on the benefits and/or disadvantages of this design rather than the amount of air in the tires, because the US market for the 80 can use suspension designs that go beyond increasing spring rate and vehicle weight proportionate to lift height, and that will only come to market with a reasonable view of the benefits and demand that could follow.

[Bikeman]

Originally Posted by Nay

The point of the pic is to show an early model of the upper winds on the coil. Let's stick to a discussion on the benefits and/or disadvantages of this design rather than the amount of air in the tires, because the US market for the 80 can use suspension designs that go beyond increasing spring rate and vehicle weight proportionate to lift height, and that will only come to market with a reasonable view of the benefits and demand that could follow.

This may step on some toes. The US market is thriving for this stuff, but from old topics/posts, ATS looks (appears) unwilling to export these items. Could also be that some importers are so stuck on OME (no offense to anyone).

Maybe we need to try to get some of the newer expedition/overlander supply companies popping up to work directly with the manufacturers in other parts of the world to get the valving right on a shock and to get these new-generation coil springs and parts into the US.

It could benefit the heavily-loaded and some of the recent lightweight-built 80's as well.

[landtank]

Originally Posted by Nay

Let's stick to a discussion on the benefits and/or disadvantages of this design rather than the amount of air in the tires

Then why post this picture? He could just take one of his new springs out of a box and photo that.

I thought this was a discussion of the suspension he had on his truck and how it is better suited for the 80 and that pic was to illustrate that. I merely pointed out that the pic didn't accurately illustrate the flex gotten from those springs and how I knew.

And why post a pic of a patrol when he owns the 80 the springs are on?

But I'll stay out of it. Nay, let me know when you get a set of springs and shocks from this guy.

[Nay]

Originally Posted by landtank

Then why post this picture? He could just take one of his new springs out of a box and photo that.

I thought this was a discussion of the suspension he had on his truck and how it is better suited for the 80 and that pic was to illustrate that. I merely pointed out that the pic didn't accurately illustrate the flex gotten from those springs and how I knew.

And why post a pic of a patrol when he owns the 80 the springs are on?

But I'll stay out of it. Nay, let me know when you get a set of springs and shocks from this guy.

I'm not asking you to stay out of it nor I am expecting to ever see one of these springs stateside given the business case it would take to bring them here.

He said why he posted the picture, which was simply to show the coil as an example of a coil with a fully compressed at static load progressive wind to allow extra droop design into the suspension. The flex shot opens up the wheel well so you can see it. I don't think there are any production coils in a box to open up and take a picture.

This thread lays out a design goal and the elements used to achieve it. I have not read the case that this is "better" (although I think it is for certain usage types) here, but rather that this design premise can in fact be achieved in stark contrast to the not-so-long-ago conventional wisdom that you needed 5" of lift on an 80 to effectively run 35's.

I giving the to conventional wisdom at every opportunity, because like FOR, that is the only way you get new product to market to be tested and optimized.

A serious debate about the long term viability and true performance characteristics of this coil design would be very much in order, as it simply represents the foundation of taking the next step in 80 series suspension design if in fact it can meet the loaded/unloaded ride quality test, support 12" of full range travel (in the rear at least) and handle high speed backroad use while enabling absolutely maximum tire size on the smallest possible lift.

These qualities are the earmark of platform optimization and deserve the credit of honest debate and ultimately market testing. That won't happen if we hone in on negative incidentals as a matter of course.