- Thread starter
- #61
thanks! It is slowly but surely. And I like the idea of that because I can mount it wherever I can and not worry about the air cooling it. That might be a really good route for me to go
Fj60 diesel conversion
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I just found this thread and read through from the start. I have had a 94 K2500 (F vin) 6.5TD pickup for three + years now, and love it. You'll find lots of information about the 6.5 on these two forum sites. thetruckstop(dot)us and dieselplace(dot)com also, you'll find Leroy at leroydiesel(dot)com very helpful, he's very good at answering your questions.
1993 was the last year of the mechanical IP, and 94 the first electronic IP. The pump mounted driver (PMD) which was mounted on the side of the electronic IP should be remote mounted (not in the engine bay) for longer life. The best way to do the remote is with an extension harness. The harness and PMD can be found at leroydiesel, and other places. The harness is about six feet long and allows you to move the PMD completely out of the heat under the hood. I moved mine to between the bumper and radiator, which does get a lot of air movement. Most people move theirs to somewhere in front of the radiator core support.
As to your oil cooler question. The 6.5 has a cooling problem and came with a stock oil cooler that was mounted in front of the radiator. I'd highly recommend finding a place to mount a cooler as that will provide a lot of help keeping the temps under control. Also, if you have the room to do so, I'd suggest getting one of the plastic 9 blade cooling fans from one of the early Duramax diesels. The blade is a bit bigger than the stock metal blade you have. It is also a direct bolt on in place of the stock fan. You may need to do a small amount of trimming on the fan shroud for clearance, I did.
The stock GM4 turbo does OK, but you may find it falls flat over about 2500 RPM. Numerous 6.5 owners have been working on turbo swaps for better MPG and HP. One guy, known as WarWagon on the truckstop forum went to one called the ATT (A Team Turbo). He's a hot shot hauler, using his 6.5 vehicle and a trailer, delivering to northern Arizona. He's found that the ATT has improved his mileage by about 3 MPG, and has increased his speed as he tops out the long grades. Others that don't tow all the time have had similar reports about the ATT turbo, and a few other turbos as well. A different turbo won't be high on your priority list at first, but something to keep in mind.
I could write a book on what I've learned in the last three years about the 6.5. Those two forums I listed were my teachers. If you have any questions I will try to answer them. Best of luck with your swap and I'll be watching your thread. If you ask a question and I don't get back to you right away then send a PM to me as sometimes I get caught up in things here around home and don't get to check Mud every day. A PM will get my attention as soon as I log onto Mud.
I feel like I'm forgetting something, but not sure what at the moment. I had trouble sleeping so that is why I'm up at this unearthly hour. I'm starting to feel sleepy and my mind is getting fuzzy so I'll see if sleep is coming my way.
Don
1993 was the last year of the mechanical IP, and 94 the first electronic IP. The pump mounted driver (PMD) which was mounted on the side of the electronic IP should be remote mounted (not in the engine bay) for longer life. The best way to do the remote is with an extension harness. The harness and PMD can be found at leroydiesel, and other places. The harness is about six feet long and allows you to move the PMD completely out of the heat under the hood. I moved mine to between the bumper and radiator, which does get a lot of air movement. Most people move theirs to somewhere in front of the radiator core support.
As to your oil cooler question. The 6.5 has a cooling problem and came with a stock oil cooler that was mounted in front of the radiator. I'd highly recommend finding a place to mount a cooler as that will provide a lot of help keeping the temps under control. Also, if you have the room to do so, I'd suggest getting one of the plastic 9 blade cooling fans from one of the early Duramax diesels. The blade is a bit bigger than the stock metal blade you have. It is also a direct bolt on in place of the stock fan. You may need to do a small amount of trimming on the fan shroud for clearance, I did.
The stock GM4 turbo does OK, but you may find it falls flat over about 2500 RPM. Numerous 6.5 owners have been working on turbo swaps for better MPG and HP. One guy, known as WarWagon on the truckstop forum went to one called the ATT (A Team Turbo). He's a hot shot hauler, using his 6.5 vehicle and a trailer, delivering to northern Arizona. He's found that the ATT has improved his mileage by about 3 MPG, and has increased his speed as he tops out the long grades. Others that don't tow all the time have had similar reports about the ATT turbo, and a few other turbos as well. A different turbo won't be high on your priority list at first, but something to keep in mind.
I could write a book on what I've learned in the last three years about the 6.5. Those two forums I listed were my teachers. If you have any questions I will try to answer them. Best of luck with your swap and I'll be watching your thread. If you ask a question and I don't get back to you right away then send a PM to me as sometimes I get caught up in things here around home and don't get to check Mud every day. A PM will get my attention as soon as I log onto Mud.
I feel like I'm forgetting something, but not sure what at the moment. I had trouble sleeping so that is why I'm up at this unearthly hour. I'm starting to feel sleepy and my mind is getting fuzzy so I'll see if sleep is coming my way.
Don
- Thread starter
- #63
thanks for the info! Lots of good stuff to know. Oil cooler wise I was going to buy a bit bigger one if I can if not I will get the water cooled ones like said above. Do you have a picture of your setup on where and how you mounted your PMD? Thanks don!
Josh
I don't have a picture, or camera readily available at the moment. I took a small point-n-shoot digital hunting with me, took it out of the backpack when we came home and put it away (apparently not where it's supposed to be as it's not there). If I can figure out my wife's SLR, and how to post them I'll get pictures.
I'll try to make a word picture for you. Since your vehicle is different from my pickup the exact details will not be the same, but the principles will transfer over.
The PMD harness needs to be unplugged, tricky to do but possible. Use a long skinny flat blade screwdriver to reach down there beside the IP and unclip the connector and remove it from the PMD. Use a piece of stiff wire with a hook bent into one end to fish the connector up to where you can grasp it and plug the extension loom in. If the extension loom doesn't have a sleeve of some kind for protection I'd recommend one be put on the harness. I ran it across the front of the motor and over to where the AC lines and the tranny cooler lines go through the core support. I used zip ties to hold it in place.
The heatsink happened to be one I found on Craigslist. The PMD must mount securely to the heatsink using a heat transfer pad or paste. I don't have any definitive experience with the transfer pads, just the paste. I mounted the PMD behind the bumper and under the shrouding that guides air into the radiator, an area that is away from heat and still allows for a lot of air movement. I made a bracket to hold the heatsink in place, yet quickly allow removal.
Don
I'll try to make a word picture for you. Since your vehicle is different from my pickup the exact details will not be the same, but the principles will transfer over.
The PMD harness needs to be unplugged, tricky to do but possible. Use a long skinny flat blade screwdriver to reach down there beside the IP and unclip the connector and remove it from the PMD. Use a piece of stiff wire with a hook bent into one end to fish the connector up to where you can grasp it and plug the extension loom in. If the extension loom doesn't have a sleeve of some kind for protection I'd recommend one be put on the harness. I ran it across the front of the motor and over to where the AC lines and the tranny cooler lines go through the core support. I used zip ties to hold it in place.
The heatsink happened to be one I found on Craigslist. The PMD must mount securely to the heatsink using a heat transfer pad or paste. I don't have any definitive experience with the transfer pads, just the paste. I mounted the PMD behind the bumper and under the shrouding that guides air into the radiator, an area that is away from heat and still allows for a lot of air movement. I made a bracket to hold the heatsink in place, yet quickly allow removal.
Don
- Thread starter
- #65
sweet thanks. I will look into the kit or possibly make my own harness? Sounds like this mod needs to be done to save me heart ache down the road
The PMD has been a known problem for years. Always have a known tested spare PMD with you. Over the past three years I've never had a PMD failure. But there are those who have had more than one unexpected failure in that time. It's just a roll of the dice.
The failure can show up in at least three different ways. A complete shutdown like turning off the key, sudden throttle surges that gradually increase in frequency, and sudden full throttle action. Shutting off the motor and restarting will almost always return operation to normal. As the PMD continues to break down the frequency will increase. From the failures I've read about, those who live in areas that have greater temperature fluctuations seem to me to have more failures.
Getting the PMD out of the under hood heat soak and cool down cycles seems to have increased the life of the PMD. Under the hood, in the stock location, the temps will greatly increase once the motor is turned off and the fan quits pushing air through. This seems to be part of the PMD breakdown. Under the bumper the span of temp high to low is greatly reduced which seems to have helped the life of the PMD.
There are only two companies that manufacture the PMD, Flight Systems and Stanadyne. There is now a slight difference in the PMD connector between the two brands. Flight systems is using the original style, while Stanadyne has slightly modified theirs from stock, and uses gold plated pins in their connector. Stanadyne has an adapter pigtail that allows it to be plugged into the stock harness. However, in a pinch the Stanadyne can be modified to plug directly into the stock harness. Flight Systems rebadges their PMD with other names, while to my knowledge Stanadyne does not.
These are observations I've picked up over the past three years on a couple different 6.5 GM diesel forums.
Don
ps: you can make your own extension harness, or extend the stock harness, but do so ONLY ONE wire at a time to make sure each wire ends up in the correct location in the connector.
The failure can show up in at least three different ways. A complete shutdown like turning off the key, sudden throttle surges that gradually increase in frequency, and sudden full throttle action. Shutting off the motor and restarting will almost always return operation to normal. As the PMD continues to break down the frequency will increase. From the failures I've read about, those who live in areas that have greater temperature fluctuations seem to me to have more failures.
Getting the PMD out of the under hood heat soak and cool down cycles seems to have increased the life of the PMD. Under the hood, in the stock location, the temps will greatly increase once the motor is turned off and the fan quits pushing air through. This seems to be part of the PMD breakdown. Under the bumper the span of temp high to low is greatly reduced which seems to have helped the life of the PMD.
There are only two companies that manufacture the PMD, Flight Systems and Stanadyne. There is now a slight difference in the PMD connector between the two brands. Flight systems is using the original style, while Stanadyne has slightly modified theirs from stock, and uses gold plated pins in their connector. Stanadyne has an adapter pigtail that allows it to be plugged into the stock harness. However, in a pinch the Stanadyne can be modified to plug directly into the stock harness. Flight Systems rebadges their PMD with other names, while to my knowledge Stanadyne does not.
These are observations I've picked up over the past three years on a couple different 6.5 GM diesel forums.
Don
ps: you can make your own extension harness, or extend the stock harness, but do so ONLY ONE wire at a time to make sure each wire ends up in the correct location in the connector.
- Thread starter
- #67
I knows PMD is brand new and I think making my own harness will be worth the coin I save for other areas. What do you know about the vacuum waste gate? Does the pump build enough pressure to run that and my brakes if I tee off on it? And do you know if they are always rub or roller valve trains? I know 6.2s are always rub
- Thread starter
- #68
Finally got to work on it today. Not much done but I or the hold down ls for the batteries made and I got the washer bottle and radiator overflow mounted
- Thread starter
- #69
Question for all you guys. Does it seem stupid going through all this work to have the 6.5 radiator In there or is it a waste of my time? The original plan was the champion radiator triple pass replacement for the stock 60 one. I need opinions guys thanks
I would highly recommend getting a second PMD for backup. It is possible for the PMD to let you down suddenly and leave you stranded. I've read where several on the diesel forums have bought a "used but tested" PMD for considerably less than new. If you do go that route for a spare then you need to put it on in place of your current PMD and run it for a while to prove it is actually good. That way if it proves to be faulty it can be returned for an exchange.
On your F vin motor, only the vacuum wastegate is run off the vacuum pump, so I don't know how it would work having two items being supplied by the pump. I don't see the wastegate as needing high volume vacuum, so I'm not sure if the pump will be big enough to operate vacuum brakes also. There is a big difference between the volume of vacuum available from even a small gas motor as compared to the stock vacuum pump.
I've never been inside one of these motors, but it seems like I've seen pics of roller lifters in the 6.5. The pics I've seen of the rockers is very much like the standard non-roller rockers.
For the radiator question, the 6.5 has known cooling concerns under heavier use. I would tend to go with the stock aluminum radiator, as long the one you have is in good shape, since it has been proven to work with the 6.5 under DD type of uses. I don't know what size the 60 series radiator is, but the aluminum 6.5 radiator is a two row core, 2 1/8th" thick, 19 7/16th" high, by 34" long, with a tranny cooler built in for the auto tranny. As long as you don't do anything more than occasional light utility trailer towing the stock radiator should be enough. If you plan to tow anything bigger let me know and I can give you recommendations for upgrading the cooling system.
Don
On your F vin motor, only the vacuum wastegate is run off the vacuum pump, so I don't know how it would work having two items being supplied by the pump. I don't see the wastegate as needing high volume vacuum, so I'm not sure if the pump will be big enough to operate vacuum brakes also. There is a big difference between the volume of vacuum available from even a small gas motor as compared to the stock vacuum pump.
I've never been inside one of these motors, but it seems like I've seen pics of roller lifters in the 6.5. The pics I've seen of the rockers is very much like the standard non-roller rockers.
For the radiator question, the 6.5 has known cooling concerns under heavier use. I would tend to go with the stock aluminum radiator, as long the one you have is in good shape, since it has been proven to work with the 6.5 under DD type of uses. I don't know what size the 60 series radiator is, but the aluminum 6.5 radiator is a two row core, 2 1/8th" thick, 19 7/16th" high, by 34" long, with a tranny cooler built in for the auto tranny. As long as you don't do anything more than occasional light utility trailer towing the stock radiator should be enough. If you plan to tow anything bigger let me know and I can give you recommendations for upgrading the cooling system.
Don
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Did more thinking about your vacuum pump question. In my earlier post I forgot that the S vin motors, in the half ton rated vehicles, had a second use for the pump. They also had the EGR system working off the vacuum pump. I'm not an expert about how much vacuum the wastegate and EGR systems together pulled, but to my thinking neither one would require much vacuum in a properly working system.
Don
Don
- Thread starter
- #72
so you think I should keep the 6.5 radiator in as it is now then? Or did you mean stock as in go back to the Toyota one?
- Thread starter
- #73
Don here is what I am thinking. If that vacuum pump won't run my brakes I will run the hydro brakes like I was thinking. But my dual batteries are in the way. So I am already thinking and decided I am gonna convert it to mechanical injection (like I should of on the engine stand ) and possibly do the stock replacement aluminum radiator from champion that cools 550 horse power with dual electric high cfm fans pulling the air. Then my batteries can go in stock locations and I can run hydro brakes. What do you think? What does everyone think?
I love my hydro brakes and the mechanical injection system should be more reliable than the electric one. It'll keep the truck down longer, but it'll be better in the long run.
Go for it!
Go for it!
Oopps! My bad! I should have been more clear on which rad I was referring to as stock. I was thinking of stock being as in stock to the 6.5, not the 60 series. I went back and looked over your pics that showed the 60 series rad, and compared them to the ones showing how the 6.5 rad was mounted. It really appears that the 60 series rad is much smaller in square inches presented to cooling air than the 6.5 rad.
Several people on the 6.5 diesel forums I haunt have tried converting their 6.5 vehicle to electric fans, usually unsuccessfully. The electric fans available that will fit the 6.5 rad apparently are not able to pull as much cooling air in as the stock 6.5 clutch fan. I don't remember the CFM of the stock clutch fan, but I think I can find that on the diesel forums. The 6.5 is IDI combustion which creates more heat in the head, creating a need for better cooling.
I don't know how the 6.5 clutch fan would compare to the rad and electric fans you are referring to. What is the core size of that rad, and how much CFM does the fan setup pull in? Also, this would pull a lot more amps from the charging system. The stock alternator I think is about 100-105 amps. Would this be enough to cover the draw of the fans, and the rest of the 60 series systems? On a side note I did change my stock alt from the CS130 to a CS144, for about 145 amps capacity. This did require modifying the rear alt support bracket on the 6.5, but it's not hard to do if you have cutting and welding equipment and skills.
The only thing I can see in the pics that I would say constitute a problem with the 6.5 rad is in how the core support blocks a large chunk of the 6.5 rad. This essentially is reducing the effective cooling area of the 6.5 rad down to the size of the 60 series rad. Although I'm not an expert on this, my opinion is that you need the size of the 6.5 rad and need to open up the 60 series core support to allow full flow of air to the 6.5 rad. From the pics it doesn't appear that modifying the core support would jeopardize the strength of the support.
Converting to a mechanical IP from the electronic would solve several possible problems. Wiring up the motor would be much easier. The electronic IP is drive-by-wire, and also must have the ECM wired in. Going mechanical eliminates all of this. The wastegate then would need to be converted to a mechanical operation since it needs a computer to work the vacuum solenoids. The vacuum pump could then be dedicated to operating just the vacuum brakes, brakes that are already in operating condition. The PMD concern would also be eliminated.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the electronic IP. The ECM for the 94 and 95 OBD1 systems has a chip inside that is easily removed and replaced with an aftermarket tune, of which there are several available out there. These tunes go from mild to wild. Economy to rubber burning power. It's just that going with the mechanical IP could solve several potential problems for you.
Don
Several people on the 6.5 diesel forums I haunt have tried converting their 6.5 vehicle to electric fans, usually unsuccessfully. The electric fans available that will fit the 6.5 rad apparently are not able to pull as much cooling air in as the stock 6.5 clutch fan. I don't remember the CFM of the stock clutch fan, but I think I can find that on the diesel forums. The 6.5 is IDI combustion which creates more heat in the head, creating a need for better cooling.
I don't know how the 6.5 clutch fan would compare to the rad and electric fans you are referring to. What is the core size of that rad, and how much CFM does the fan setup pull in? Also, this would pull a lot more amps from the charging system. The stock alternator I think is about 100-105 amps. Would this be enough to cover the draw of the fans, and the rest of the 60 series systems? On a side note I did change my stock alt from the CS130 to a CS144, for about 145 amps capacity. This did require modifying the rear alt support bracket on the 6.5, but it's not hard to do if you have cutting and welding equipment and skills.
The only thing I can see in the pics that I would say constitute a problem with the 6.5 rad is in how the core support blocks a large chunk of the 6.5 rad. This essentially is reducing the effective cooling area of the 6.5 rad down to the size of the 60 series rad. Although I'm not an expert on this, my opinion is that you need the size of the 6.5 rad and need to open up the 60 series core support to allow full flow of air to the 6.5 rad. From the pics it doesn't appear that modifying the core support would jeopardize the strength of the support.
Converting to a mechanical IP from the electronic would solve several possible problems. Wiring up the motor would be much easier. The electronic IP is drive-by-wire, and also must have the ECM wired in. Going mechanical eliminates all of this. The wastegate then would need to be converted to a mechanical operation since it needs a computer to work the vacuum solenoids. The vacuum pump could then be dedicated to operating just the vacuum brakes, brakes that are already in operating condition. The PMD concern would also be eliminated.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the electronic IP. The ECM for the 94 and 95 OBD1 systems has a chip inside that is easily removed and replaced with an aftermarket tune, of which there are several available out there. These tunes go from mild to wild. Economy to rubber burning power. It's just that going with the mechanical IP could solve several potential problems for you.
Don
- Thread starter
- #76
Don the radiator I can get ahold of is a triple pass and costs 250 bucks. So you think the performance of the 6.5 is down to the stock Toyota rad with me not opening it up? It sounds weird but I am kinda not for cutting up my core support I like to keep it in a way that I can always return to stuff setup it sounds weird I know.
- Thread starter
- #77
what rad are you running with the 4bt?
- Thread starter
- #78
Oh and Don I believe the fans pull 2300 cfm a piece so 4600 cfm total
I'm running my stock fj60 radiator and my motor always runs cooler than the 2F did. That said, the cummins motors run notoriously cold, I think due to direct injection.
I can fully understand not wanting to cut up your good condition core support.
Can you measure the opening in the core support and compare those square inches to the 6.5 rad core size? The 6.5 rad core has 663 sq inches of front facing core open to incoming air by the way. Since the core support opening is smaller than the 6.5 core, the area covered by the metal of the core support will be blocking air flow and reducing frontal area open to incoming air. I wish I knew of an accurate way to measure cooling capacity of a radiator. I would really like to accurately compare the three core aluminum rad to a stock 6.5 rad.
I feel I need to explain why I'm being paranoid about cooling. Do you know the difference between direct injection (DI) for a diesel and indirect injection (IDI)? Up until about three to four years ago I was totally ignorant when it came to diesels, but I ended up with lots of extra time, so I spent that time learning (although I still have a long ways to go).
With DI the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder. But with IDI the diesel fuel is injected into a chamber in the head that is separate from, but connected to, the cylinder bore by way of a small opening. As the piston moves up and compression increases the fuel is injected into the pre-combustion chamber (pre-cup). When the fuel ignites the resulting flame front moves from the pre-cup through the small opening and into the cylinder. This keeps more of the combustion heat in the head than with a DI diesel. This then creates a need for much better cooling, and is why I'm so concerned about the rad.
I'm going to disappear from Mud for a while and go to the diesel forums to find what the CFM is for the stock 6.5 fan.
Don
Can you measure the opening in the core support and compare those square inches to the 6.5 rad core size? The 6.5 rad core has 663 sq inches of front facing core open to incoming air by the way. Since the core support opening is smaller than the 6.5 core, the area covered by the metal of the core support will be blocking air flow and reducing frontal area open to incoming air. I wish I knew of an accurate way to measure cooling capacity of a radiator. I would really like to accurately compare the three core aluminum rad to a stock 6.5 rad.
I feel I need to explain why I'm being paranoid about cooling. Do you know the difference between direct injection (DI) for a diesel and indirect injection (IDI)? Up until about three to four years ago I was totally ignorant when it came to diesels, but I ended up with lots of extra time, so I spent that time learning (although I still have a long ways to go).
With DI the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder. But with IDI the diesel fuel is injected into a chamber in the head that is separate from, but connected to, the cylinder bore by way of a small opening. As the piston moves up and compression increases the fuel is injected into the pre-combustion chamber (pre-cup). When the fuel ignites the resulting flame front moves from the pre-cup through the small opening and into the cylinder. This keeps more of the combustion heat in the head than with a DI diesel. This then creates a need for much better cooling, and is why I'm so concerned about the rad.
I'm going to disappear from Mud for a while and go to the diesel forums to find what the CFM is for the stock 6.5 fan.
Don