FJ60 Design Flaws, practical solutions? (1 Viewer)

[Mark W]

Actually, the 3B and the 13B-T were regarded as the best diesels fo their time. The 2H wasn't as durable. 3Bs can run for 600,000km with NO SERVICE except oil and filter change... I know because the Old Faithful still runs and is not an oil guzzler. Never had anything done to the engine, apart from replacing the glow plugs twice...

I've got a 2F in an '82 FJ60 with 320,000 miles on it. Still has nominal oil pressure with the original rings and bearings in it. I parked it because of the sad state of the body and interior. When parked it still started and ran perfectly, even at -20F and colder. Was getting 13-14mpg, not being driven gently. I ran it to 4000 grand most of the time when going through the gears. Last time I checked compression was at about 290,000 milee and it still had 140 or better across the board. I was the only person to wrnch on it for the last 200,000 miles. In that time, it not only did not have a valve job done, but it never had the valves even adjusted. It did have a leaky oil pan gasket and it burned a little oil/smoked on startup a little. For the last 50K miles or so I just poured used motor oil in it when it got low. I *did* change the filter two or maybe even three times in that 50K miles. I think...

If I was to bolt a carb on it and an alternator (to replace the good working ones that I scavenged from it) it would be ready to keep running still.

Yeah, 2Fs are junk too.


Mark...

 

[83bj60]

What is this thing "rust"?

Yes, I know, I can now understand why there are so many classic cars out in the southwest!!! Got some parts from a old 'Cruiser that was ex-Texas (IIRC) earlier this year... Couldn't believe it, no rust whatsover on that spare tire winch... after 15 years!!! Basically in the same shape out trucks are... when they reach the showroom!!!

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Yes, I know, I can now understand why there are so many classic cars out in the southwest!!! Got some parts from a old 'Cruiser that was ex-Texas (IIRC) earlier this year... Couldn't believe it, no rust whatsover on that spare tire winch... after 15 years!!! Basically in the same shape out trucks are... when they reach the showroom!!!

Yes, it's weird. I would say that the central valley of California (where I live) has even less rust than most of the Southwest. They still get freezing weather, and some deicer is used.

Here in the Sacramento area, it never freezes, it rains less than 18 inches per year, and the whole state said no to salt deicing. Things just don't rust. My FJ60 has a working spare tire hoist (didn't think about it until your post), and the frame still has 99% of the factory thin black paint. There are parts of my 40 that don't even have paint, and it's solid, with no evident rust.

Heck, my 220k FJ60 still has the original exhaust system-and even it's not rusted. I see the pictures of the midwest trucks, and worse yet, the Canadian trucks, and that just makes me sick. My Cruisers live outside, and I'll rust before they do.

 

[83bj60]

I've got a 2F in an '82 FJ60 with 320,000 miles on it. Still has nominal oil pressure with the original rings and bearings in it. I parked it because of the sad state of the body and interior. When parked it still started and ran perfectly, even at -20F and colder. Was getting 13-14mpg, not being driven gently. I ran it to 4000 grand most of the time when going through the gears. Last time I checked compression was at about 290,000 milee and it still had 140 or better across the board. I was the only person to wrnch on it for the last 200,000 miles. In that time, it not only did not have a valve job done, but it never had the valves even adjusted. It did have a leaky oil pan gasket and it burned a little oil/smoked on startup a little. For the last 50K miles or so I just poured used motor oil in it when it got low. I *did* change the filter two or maybe even three times in that 50K miles. I think...

If I was to bolt a carb on it and an alternator (to replace the good working ones that I scavenged from it) it would be ready to keep running still.

Yeah, 2Fs are junk too.


Mark...

Actually, the 2F was the first Toyota engine I worked on when I was younger. My God this engine had had a rough life on that F45 pickup that my partner used to have... To pull logs out of the bsuh like a Percheron horse!!! I really fell in love with Cruisers then... Anyway, everything was so simple on it... the smog stuff did it it, however... I had a later 2F and the first thing we did was cut off the smog pump pipes and weld them shut But it was still a gas guzzler!!! That one died a natural death, as 'landscape art', the engine surely could have been salvaged, 'cause I would turn it over every year or so, just to see if it would work

 

[jwest]

but I think I'm being pretty objective when it comes to the 60's lack of highway driveability.

What are the 2007 solutions to my perceived" performace issues? 2F rebuild? Vortec Swap, Diesel swap? They all have their merits and their downsides. Id like to stay with the 2F for reliability and eliminate the emissions junk, but I have yet to see a "roadmap" for de-smoging. This leaves me a little leary about doing it. It seems if done right it would greatly simplify things under the hood and eliminate tons of headaches. Done wrong it sounds like a nightmare.

Let's assume for a moment that everything under the hood is in good working order. What may help you is to have a truer sense of the 2F's intended driveability. You'll then have a better idea about what you're dealing with and can plan accordingly.

IMO, no aspect of the emissions system robs more power than EGR. It effectively reduces the displacement of the motor. Disconnect the system and see if it makes a difference for you.

.

 

[83bj60]

Heck, my 220k FJ60 still has the original exhaust system-and even it's not rusted.

Yes, it dawned on me today as I was driving why it is so, and why anything rusts here:

-Salt on humid roads=slush (a very corrosive mix of salt and ice). Sticks like glue to the frame and doesn't go away till spring (5 months down the road). Awful stuff to have fall on you in winter if you have to get under there for any reason
-Extreme cold temperatures=exhaust systems contract and expands in huge amounts, and cold, acidic exhaust moisture gets into the crevices of the metal and corrodes from the inside. If it doesn't die from salt from the oustide, it dies from the sulfuric and other acrid acids generated when the engine is cold, from the inside.

Even stainless steel muffler systems don't last much more than 10 years here, (according to my local Midas shop).

Add to these hard climate conditions our harsh road surfaces and it is no surprise only the toughest vehicles survive long in our parts, and why I've always been into Landcruisers...

 

[Dazza]

My cruiser was it's most powerful when I removed all of the smog parts, cat included, and replaced the muffler with a flowmaster. sounds like a small block too. Later I realized that motor had a bad head, and had to swap in a 2f out of a 79 fj40 with high mileage.(what can you do for $300)

I plan on keeping this tired old motor going until I can swap in a diesel, probably a 3BT, underpowered but probably the best fuel economy one can hope for in a landcrusher.

I also want to put in an H55F 5 speed so i can go to 4.30 (ish) gears
and still drive on the highway (even if slowly) but then again speed isn't really my thing.

 

[Christian]

As for obviosly designflaws, TOYOTA should have made the 60 in stainless, just like a Delorean!

 

[pismojim]

Wow, glad I didn't miss this thread it's great to see the passion of the 60 lovers.

Chuckardog, the early replies from Mace and Mark complimented by several other knowledgeable wagon men covered the technical and historical aspects of your query very well. There's not much to add.

I will offer you another perspective. I was there at the time. In April 1986 I bought my FJ60 brand new from Toyota. Previously, I owned a 1974 CJ5, with stock 304 V8. I loved that Jeep. Seriously, it is the only vehicle I missed after selling it (I haven't sold a cruiser yet.) But it had some issues, in hind sight it had a lot of issues. I won't bore you with a list but I'll summarize by saying it wasn't Rugged or Reliable.

It also wasn't practical for a family hauler. So I was in the market for the best new family 4x4 vehicle I could find. I thought a fullsize 4x4 with a V8 was the only way to go.

Then I went shopping and took some test drives. Long story short there was NO COMPARISON between the FJ60 and it's contemporaneous competition. To this day, 20 plus years later, I still remember the test drive in my FJ60. I wish everyone could hop in a brand new FJ60 in 100% stock configuration and take it for a spin. It was the tightest, peppiest and smoothest driving rig in its class.

Yes, the big block chevy suburban and others I drove had more power but they ran rougher, were noisier, had more rattles vibrations and groans than any Toyota I've driven. It was scary. Pieces were literally falling off and failing before they could get them off the lot. Honestly the lack of build quality was appalling. And, the "after thought" smog equipment was as bad or worse than the 2F.

So I bought the FJ60 for $15,300 no haggling because there were only half a dozen in the entire San Francisco / Sacramento area. I was told import numbers were very low due to high demand in the Middle East. Toyota was pushing its "new" 4Runner in the USA, not the Land Cruiser. We weren't getting the 70 series although they were covered in my Owners manual. The Land Cruiser FJ60 variants were thriving elsewhere in the world, but the USA market with its changing EPA, DOT and import quotas made it a low priority for Toyota (call that my opinion for the sake of argument).

In my mind, I still wanted the V8 and planned to install one as soon as I paid off the loan. Well, I paid off the loan in 3 or 4 years while I unlearned my V8 CJ5 habits and became a Land Cruiser driver. I still wanted the V8, just not as much. Finally, around 1996 or 10 years later, I figured it was time to do the engine swap.

This was also about the time the Internet was starting to take off (imagine no Internet) and my research let me to the TLCA and LCML. As my research continued I learned more about the 2F and decided my V8 swap money would be better spent in other ways (like a SOA).

OK, enough rambling. The point is I wish you could travel back in time to the mid-eighties so you could do side by side comparison with the FJ60 and its contemporaneous competition. A real, unbiased comparison based on your values. I think you might revise your perspective.

Come to think of it, we might be able to do the comparison today with 20 year old vehicles. That is if we could find suitable specimens of the "competition" still on the road and running.

Cheers,

 

[Jaybikman]

mini's are also spring over..

Personaly I see almost no value to the general public with a Shackle reversal.

You have to admit thought you have to look pretty damn hard to find those springs. I think that looks badass. However seeing those beefy 60 springs looks badass too.
J-

 

[83bj60]

I plan on keeping this tired old motor going until I can swap in a diesel, probably a 3BT, underpowered but probably the best fuel economy one can hope for in a landcrusher.

I also want to put in an H55F 5 speed so i can go to 4.30 (ish) gears
and still drive on the highway (even if slowly) but then again speed isn't really my thing.

the 3B is underpowered, but I doubt that you will the turbo version underpowered. There isn't a big difference between a turboed 3B and a 2F torque and power wise if you look at the charts. Don't quote me on this, but IIRC, the turbocharged 3B will have a bit less power (less top end and acceleration) but probably a little more torque than the 2F (better at maintaining speeds).

I'm not sure the h55f will help a lot for your intended use. It has a very small overdrive gear. By that I mean the difference between 4th and 4th is minimal (about 10%). Also, the gaps between 2nd and 3rd and 3rd and 4 are huge (they should have gotten 3rd much closer to 2nd and 4th closer to 3rd).

I think Landcruiser gearboxes were primarily designed for modest speeds typical of what you would find on dirt roads, where most fo the driving is between 50 and 80 kph, not for pure highway like most north americans really use them for.

 

[agent orange]

Wow, glad I didn't miss this thread it's great to see the passion of the 60 lovers.

Chuckardog, the early replies from Mace and Mark complimented by several other knowledgeable wagon men covered the technical and historical aspects of your query very well. There's not much to add.

I will offer you another perspective. I was there at the time. In April 1986 I bought my FJ60 brand new from Toyota. Previously, I owned a 1974 CJ5, with stock 304 V8. I loved that Jeep. Seriously, it is the only vehicle I missed after selling it (I haven't sold a cruiser yet.) But it had some issues, in hind sight it had a lot of issues. I won't bore you with a list but I'll summarize by saying it wasn't Rugged or Reliable.

It also wasn't practical for a family hauler. So I was in the market for the best new family 4x4 vehicle I could find. I thought a fullsize 4x4 with a V8 was the only way to go.

Then I went shopping and took some test drives. Long story short there was NO COMPARISON between the FJ60 and it's contemporaneous competition. To this day, 20 plus years later, I still remember the test drive in my FJ60. I wish everyone could hop in a brand new FJ60 in 100% stock configuration and take it for a spin. It was the tightest, peppiest and smoothest driving rig in its class.

Yes, the big block chevy suburban and others I drove had more power but they ran rougher, were noisier, had more rattles vibrations and groans than any Toyota I've driven. It was scary. Pieces were literally falling off and failing before they could get them off the lot. Honestly the lack of build quality was appalling. And, the "after thought" smog equipment was as bad or worse than the 2F.

So I bought the FJ60 for $15,300 no haggling because there were only half a dozen in the entire San Francisco / Sacramento area. I was told import numbers were very low due to high demand in the Middle East. Toyota was pushing its "new" 4Runner in the USA, not the Land Cruiser. We weren't getting the 70 series although they were covered in my Owners manual. The Land Cruiser FJ60 variants were thriving elsewhere in the world, but the USA market with its changing EPA, DOT and import quotas made it a low priority for Toyota (call that my opinion for the sake of argument).

In my mind, I still wanted the V8 and planned to install one as soon as I paid off the loan. Well, I paid off the loan in 3 or 4 years while I unlearned my V8 CJ5 habits and became a Land Cruiser driver. I still wanted the V8, just not as much. Finally, around 1996 or 10 years later, I figured it was time to do the engine swap.

This was also about the time the Internet was starting to take off (imagine no Internet) and my research let me to the TLCA and LCML. As my research continued I learned more about the 2F and decided my V8 swap money would be better spent in other ways (like a SOA).

OK, enough rambling. The point is I wish you could travel back in time to the mid-eighties so you could do side by side comparison with the FJ60 and its contemporaneous competition. A real, unbiased comparison based on your values. I think you might revise your perspective.

Come to think of it, we might be able to do the comparison today with 20 year old vehicles. That is if we could find suitable specimens of the "competition" still on the road and running.

Cheers,

This is good stuff, it reminds me of how my dad got my 62. He was looking for a fullsize SUV, and was looking at jeeps and blazers and such. He just didnt like the other stuff, although they had more power. His buddy in tennesee gave him a call and said ive got the truck for you, come and get it. He drove down, tested it out, and came back with it 17 years ago. Its been a DD for almost its entire life, and now its my wheeling rig. Gotta love a vehicle you can get 230k DDing it and then wheel the piss out of it.

 

[Dazza]

83 bj60 -

don't mean to hijack.

thanks for the 3B info, I may need to rethink my gear ratio ideas, what do you think is best setup with 3B for fj60? pm me if you want...

 

[Tofudebeest]

Actually, the 3B and the 13B-T were regarded as the best diesels fo their time. The 2H wasn't as durable. 3Bs can run for 600,000km with NO SERVICE except oil and filter change... I know because the Old Faithful still runs and is not an oil guzzler. Never had anything done to the engine, apart from replacing the glow plugs twice...

I'm calling B.S.

The 2H is not inferior to the 3B.

 

[jeffsclan]

Love'm or leave'em. Most people think I'm crazy for driving such an old vehicle that I have to shift (gasp). It is what it is. Sure its not the fastest thing on the road It gets around fine, of course its slow when compared to a diesel truck. My "new" ford has broken more times then the old 60. I can for the most part fix the 60 with simple tools. The new vehicles are designed to be taken to the dealer for repair. They are also moving the driver further away from the driving. The old cruiser, your in tune with the machine. Whats all this about an oil galley plug ?

 

[phoenixrider]

yes, I think alot of people forget what Detroit was churning out in the 80's... for the most part - crap!

The LC comp would have been what - a 80's Suburban, a Jeep Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer, maybe the Blazer and Bronco?

which one of those fixed up 80's rides can still get 10-20k (or more)? Bout the only thing people want the Jeeps for is the D44's, the others - scrap metal?

 

[83bj60]

I'm calling B.S.

The 2H is not inferior to the 3B.

Just a matter of opinion; mine is based on the fact that the 3B, with its piston oil cooling jets, is designed to be turboed for utility and thrift, whereas the 2H, although nicer to run in a 60, doesn't.

 

[Christian]

Just a matter of opinion; mine is based on the fact that the 3B, with its piston oil cooling jets, is designed to be turboed for utility and thrift, whereas the 2H, although nicer to run in a 60, doesn't.

There is a perfectly logical reason for this: The 2H does not have the jets, because the 12HT has. TOYOTA knew what they where doing. I agree that is is an issue when turboing a 2H (I have one), but that was never TOYOTA's intention. If you wanted a turbo, you bought a HJ61, not a HJ60.

 

[83bj60]

There is a perfectly logical reason for this: The 2H does not have the jets, because the 12HT has. TOYOTA knew what they where doing. I agree that is is an issue when turboing a 2H (I have one), but that was never TOYOTA's intention. If you wanted a turbo, you bought a HJ61, not a HJ60.

I don't dispute that. But you can take a 3B powered truck, turbo it and voilà, more power. No engine swapping, it just makes more sense!

Plus the 4 cylinder is simpler and much easier to work on (less parts, more space to install an intercooler). Finally, being smaller, it's potentially more thrifty. Oh, and I forgot, if you use the 3B as is you get a piston injection pump and pre-cups (more relaible, possibility of using alternate fuels...) AND increased compression ratio (potentially better efficiency as compared with the 13BT).

Plus I much prefer the sound of the 3B than that of the 2H

Like I said... It's just my opinion! If I had a choice of engines for my present truck, I would definitely have preferred a 4 litre 4 cylinder with normally high compression, piston injection pump with aftermarket turbo than the existing 4.3 litre 6 cylinder (something like the engine in the Megacruiser)... there isn't that much space under the hood with that long 6 cylinder!

Not that I dislike the 1HD-T... It's smooth, powerful and quite thrifty

 

[bigpk]

Im just saying, it sure sounds like you don't want your truck. And if money isn't an issue and you can buy any truck, is the fact that you put a few thousand into it supposed to mean something. i have put a lot more thn that into mine and plan to put more into it. I love it when it isn't running and I love it even more when it is. Who cares if its supposedly underpowered, I drive it up to tahoe all the time and avg about 60 65 with stock gearing and 33's. And furthermore my 60 gets about the same mileage as my new fj.