CharlieS
GOLD Star
Nope, just bumper plastic.
Finally ready to join LC community with a 200-Series, looking for advice (1 Viewer)
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@TeCKis300
”KDSS is a double edged sword in itself. It's the single largest impediment to LCs not being able to drop in the larger and wider tires that the LX can fit. It's also a passive simpler system of cross linked suspension control. The same technology but in a more capable active and adjustable form exists in AHC.
With AHC lift, larger tire capability, it's arguable whether bumpers even are necessary. I'm on a 6" total lift with 35s and mild AHC sensor lift. All while being dialed whether carrying nothing or 2k lbs. Not much comes close to touching the bumpers. To state it more concisely, an LX would be capable of tackling difficult rated trails with nothing more than just dropping in big tires. That goal and build path is much more costly on the LC.”
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What little Techie said is true. With LX if you mod it to lift all the time, it can indeed fit a larger tire. With LC you have the KDSS bar that limits size of tire.
But what little Techie fails to mention is that when you lift your AHC, the ride becomes worst. The ANGLES are worst on LX…unless you lift AHC to its highest setting…which then turns the ride to crap! So, stock vs. stock, for LX to match LC, you need to lift it to the highest setting (and then some more when AHC detects off camber)…and at the highest setting, the ride is horrible AND your articulation decreases! So, that wonderful RTI score of the LX is ONLY at its ”NORMAL” setting. Once you lift, your RTI score tanks and your ride worsens. Obviously, NOT the case with the LC, which has excellent angles and articulation on any surface.
KDSS may be “simple” but it works better off-road and simply does not break. Ultimate reliability. There was a LX owner on here a while back that busted something (evaporator or something) and his whole AHC system shut down and slammed down to the ground and he was dragging his whole underbody thru off-road terrain!!
And of course, you have AHC and its maintenance, which has been nightmarish for several folks on this forum.
For sensor lift, no one really knows how AHC will do long-term on a 200 series. It is always funny to see little Techie talk about OVER-towing outside engineering limits as stated by Lexus…yet he is so much against using regular fuel because Lexus says not to.
”KDSS is a double edged sword in itself. It's the single largest impediment to LCs not being able to drop in the larger and wider tires that the LX can fit. It's also a passive simpler system of cross linked suspension control. The same technology but in a more capable active and adjustable form exists in AHC.
With AHC lift, larger tire capability, it's arguable whether bumpers even are necessary. I'm on a 6" total lift with 35s and mild AHC sensor lift. All while being dialed whether carrying nothing or 2k lbs. Not much comes close to touching the bumpers. To state it more concisely, an LX would be capable of tackling difficult rated trails with nothing more than just dropping in big tires. That goal and build path is much more costly on the LC.”
————————————————————————————————————
What little Techie said is true. With LX if you mod it to lift all the time, it can indeed fit a larger tire. With LC you have the KDSS bar that limits size of tire.
But what little Techie fails to mention is that when you lift your AHC, the ride becomes worst. The ANGLES are worst on LX…unless you lift AHC to its highest setting…which then turns the ride to crap! So, stock vs. stock, for LX to match LC, you need to lift it to the highest setting (and then some more when AHC detects off camber)…and at the highest setting, the ride is horrible AND your articulation decreases! So, that wonderful RTI score of the LX is ONLY at its ”NORMAL” setting. Once you lift, your RTI score tanks and your ride worsens. Obviously, NOT the case with the LC, which has excellent angles and articulation on any surface.
KDSS may be “simple” but it works better off-road and simply does not break. Ultimate reliability. There was a LX owner on here a while back that busted something (evaporator or something) and his whole AHC system shut down and slammed down to the ground and he was dragging his whole underbody thru off-road terrain!!
And of course, you have AHC and its maintenance, which has been nightmarish for several folks on this forum.
For sensor lift, no one really knows how AHC will do long-term on a 200 series. It is always funny to see little Techie talk about OVER-towing outside engineering limits as stated by Lexus…yet he is so much against using regular fuel because Lexus says not to.
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bloc
SILVER Star
I love my KDSS system but will not go as far as saying it never breaks. There are a couple reports of failures even without corrosion, and that is with the small sample size of US market owners posting in this forum. Not to mention fluid changes are not recommended and many of us are just approaching 200k.. half of our intended mileage for our vehicles.
IMO *any* “sealed for life” system is suspect. Yes, it is very reliable, and the passive nature and resulting reduced complexity compared to AHC helps that, but we can’t say it never has problems. And when it does.. special tools and $$$$ for parts.
IMO *any* “sealed for life” system is suspect. Yes, it is very reliable, and the passive nature and resulting reduced complexity compared to AHC helps that, but we can’t say it never has problems. And when it does.. special tools and $$$$ for parts.
Correct me if i am wrong, but most non-corrosion “failures” of KDSS is from people improperly turning those KDSS bolts. And while the KDSS bolts/Allen do rust…they do not cause failures UNLESS you decide to do aftermarket lift and have to release the KDSS. Maybe my time on this forum is limited, but i have never heard of a LC KDSS going bad suddenly without some form of user error and / or while installing lift kit, you are dealing with rusted bolts.
So, if someone were to drive to 300-400k miles. Even if the KDSS bolts rust, then it should NOT cause any issue unless owner starts screwing around with releasing the KDSS system pressure (to install a lift for instance) OR the rust goes THROUGH the whole system…but then if that happens, you have other issues to deal with!
bloc
SILVER Star
I can think of two or three total failures from corrosion without messing with screws. The valve I cut apart was one of them, in that case the vehicle started leaning heavily one day. I never figured out what caused the lean but the most likely explanation is an external leak from one of the circuits, leading to a big imbalance in circuit pressures. The other corrosion case I can remember had similar symptoms. I’m fuzzy on whether there were 2 or 3 total corrosion posted since I started paying attention.
The non-corrosion cases I remember were leaking cylinders, on clean vehicles. And if you think about it this makes sense. We have a dynamic seal holding back 400+ psi of oil with a shaft sliding in and out of it as the vehicle goes down the road. Yes most of the large travel will be off-road and much more rare, but there are small movements happening all the time. It is unrealistic to expect this system to last forever.
The great thing is that both AHC and KDSS can be removed and replaced with aftermarket lifts and anti-sway bar kits should one experience a failure or prefer to work around the systems entirely since they both have their limitations.
bloc
SILVER Star
Exactly.
Without the very thick KDSS sway bar I believe a cruiser won’t corner as flat, but then it’s a 6000lb SUV.. we shouldn’t expect a track car.
Edit: actually, I believe the mounts on the KDSS rear axle are substantially different and I'm not sure a standard sway bar can be fitted. has anyone done this?
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mycars
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #48
Wow, that is helpful and took me to some good threads about the differences between the LC and LX. Thank you very much for this.It's often quoted that the LX angles are not as good. Not untrue, but there's more to the story. Only the approach angle is better on the LC. Every other metric: departure, breakover, wading depth and potentially sidehill, give the nod to the LX, on account of the 3" lift and lower on demand. There's also differences between the model years. Table copied from here
KDSS is a double edged sword in itself. It's the single largest impediment to LCs not being able to drop in the larger and wider tires that the LX can fit. It's also a passive simpler system of cross linked suspension control. The same technology but in a more capable active and adjustable form exists in AHC.
With AHC lift, larger tire capability, it's arguable whether bumpers even are necessary. I'm on a 6" total lift with 35s and mild AHC sensor lift. All while being dialed whether carrying nothing or 2k lbs. Not much comes close to touching the bumpers. To state it more concisely, an LX would be capable of tackling difficult rated trails with nothing more than just dropping in big tires. That goal and build path is much more costly on the LC.
That doesn't stop the LX from getting armor. With the cost and effort saved elsewhere, most aftermarket bumpers can be fitted with some mild customization as many examples of LXs have shown.
Separately, there's a laundry list of details differences (varies through model yrs) that the LX gets over the LC. Copied from here
1) More sound deadening (acoustic glass, engine covers, more extensive interior insulation)
2) Powered rear hatch for open/close, also key fob operated (later LCs got this)
3) Soft open rear lower tailgate, with power latching
4) Surround camera system
5) Ventilated/Heated front row (later LCs got this)
6) Mark Levinson Reference (only other model to get the Reference system is the LS) w/surround (19 speakers vs 14, 10" sub vs 8")
7) Power side view mirrors with auto-fold (later LCs got this)
8) AHC - AVS, lift on demand, adjustable and continuous damping logic, anti-dive/roll/squat, leveling, etc.
9) AHC underbody armor
10) Shorter roof rack (LC has a longer roof rack with 3 supports per side)
11) Steering headlights (AFS)
12) Projector headlights ('16+ LCs got this)
13) Headlight washers
14) Storage in rear seat armrest
15) Power slide rear seats
16) Second row storage on front seatbacks is a panel vs net
17) 14-way adjustable driver seat vs 10-way LC (passenger 12-way vs 8-way)
18) Adjustable tilt front headrests
19) Power stowage for 3rd row seat
20) All windows down by holding remote door open button for 3+ seconds (not sure Toyota's have this?)
21) Substantial Lexus key fob
22) Fade-To-Off interior lighting (I believe LC got this in 2014?)
23) Puddle and side step lights
24) Door sill lighting
25) Interior ambient lighting
26) Additional trunk side light and open tailgate lighting
27) +2hp / +2tq (requires 91 octane, LC is 87 octane)
28) Semi-aniline leather and more luxurious interior appointments
29) Ventilated second row outboard seats
30) Four-zone climate concierge
31) LED Headlamp with AHS Sequential Turn
32) LED Cornering Lamp
33) 12.3-inch high-res split-screen display (LC 9")
34) Head-up display
35) Steering wheel paddle shifter
36) Door puddle projector lamps
37) Rear door retractable sun shades
38) 2020 gets special trims: "LX570 Sport" to "LC Heritage"
39) Dual screen rear entertainment
40) All-Speed Dynamic Radar Cruise Control (LC DRCC for 25mph and up)
41) Auto air quality air recirculation
Correct me if I'm wrong. But the suspension geometry of the LX and the LC is the same. The only differences between the suspensions are the shocks, springs, and swaybar (+links). Doesn't that mean if anything you can/can't do to an LX has the exact same effect on an LC? The main difference being that it costs a lot more than $0 to lift a LC?
If you lifted a LC, wouldn't it's RTI score "tank" just as much? There's no doubt the newer LXs have snowplows for bumpers, but let's not get too dramatic about the differences.
Also, you don't have to lift an LX to run oversized tires. Certainly no more than you have to lift a LC.
bloc
SILVER Star
Not necessarily. If the shocks installed on the LC have a greater extended length that turns into extra down travel and can help RTI significantly, as long as the springs are still soft enough to be compressed into the bump stops. My kings are an inch longer than stock in front, which nets 2" of down travel. Rears are about .75" longer but their orientation means that is only .75" extra at the tire.
Whereas a sensor lift on a LX just moves the vehicle up in it's available travel, and does so by increasing virtual spring rate via shock pressure. This makes the compressed corners harder to get into the bump stops effectively.
Teckis has been playing with equalizing this a bit by installing 10mm strut spacers in front for almost an inch of down travel, and IIRC is looking into relocating the lower eyelet on the rear shocks to do the same thing.
At NORMAL AHC mode, the stock LX has worst angles than stock LC.
At HIGH mode, stock LX matches or comes near stock LC angles. So, at max height, from angles perspective, LX and LC are similar. Again, LX at highest setting is NOT better than LC.
BUT at HIGH mode, the LX ride worsens and articulation is worst. LC has no such issue(s).
This is stock vs. stock. How aftermarket parts can affect this or that…i defer to the experts on this forum.
And i am only talking about off-road.
On-road, AHC is worst than KDSS in quick transitions and thus handling is worst with AHC (even in Sport mode) when compared with KDSS. (Funny story, little Techie used to boast how AHC makes Lexus LX handle like a Porsche on rails! And you gotta trust him because he boasted repeatedly his deep experience with sports cars and he’s a self-proclaimed ride expert. Of course, he has kept quiet after i showed him REAL world handling numbers.)
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I won’t argue that if you add longer shocks that this would be better than a sensor lift, but for mild changes, AHC is probably pretty close (especially with spacer mods that are 3-5% the cost of upgrading a LC).
As far as using AHC high mode, that’s part of the magic. It’s dynamic, so it can be high when it needs to be and N when it needs droop.
Either way, my fault, I really didn’t want to be part of another AHC vs KDSS thread.
As far as using AHC high mode, that’s part of the magic. It’s dynamic, so it can be high when it needs to be and N when it needs droop.
Either way, my fault, I really didn’t want to be part of another AHC vs KDSS thread.
@TeCKis300
”KDSS is a double edged sword in itself. It's the single largest impediment to LCs not being able to drop in the larger and wider tires that the LX can fit. It's also a passive simpler system of cross linked suspension control. The same technology but in a more capable active and adjustable form exists in AHC.
With AHC lift, larger tire capability, it's arguable whether bumpers even are necessary. I'm on a 6" total lift with 35s and mild AHC sensor lift. All while being dialed whether carrying nothing or 2k lbs. Not much comes close to touching the bumpers. To state it more concisely, an LX would be capable of tackling difficult rated trails with nothing more than just dropping in big tires. That goal and build path is much more costly on the LC.”
————————————————————————————————————
What little Techie said is true. With LX if you mod it to lift all the time, it can indeed fit a larger tire. With LC you have the KDSS bar that limits size of tire.
But what little Techie fails to mention is that when you lift your AHC, the ride becomes worst. The ANGLES are worst on LX…unless you lift AHC to its highest setting…which then turns the ride to crap! So, stock vs. stock, for LX to match LC, you need to lift it to the highest setting (and then some more when AHC detects off camber)…and at the highest setting, the ride is horrible AND your articulation decreases! So, that wonderful RTI score of the LX is ONLY at its ”NORMAL” setting. Once you lift, your RTI score tanks and your ride worsens. Obviously, NOT the case with the LC, which has excellent angles and articulation on any surface.
KDSS may be “simple” but it works better off-road and simply does not break. Ultimate reliability. There was a LX owner on here a while back that busted something (evaporator or something) and his whole AHC system shut down and slammed down to the ground and he was dragging his whole underbody thru off-road terrain!!
And of course, you have AHC and its maintenance, which has been nightmarish for several folks on this forum.
For sensor lift, no one really knows how AHC will do long-term on a 200 series. It is always funny to see little Techie talk about OVER-towing outside engineering limits as stated by Lexus…yet he is so much against using regular fuel because Lexus says not to.
Hah, so you figured out I haven't left these boards and you want to embarrass yourself some more?
Yeah, let's let the class clown teach us how AHC works based on anecdotes. It's surely easier than those of us that have it, collaborated, iterated, and learned , to then properly tweak the system for the benefit of everyone.
Maybe his cosmetic steps give him madkat cred and I'm just doing it wrong. And maybe I don't actually own a Porsche Turbo, have tracked the car, to make any reasonable commentary on the LXs handling abilities - despite its weight and body on frame architecture. Understand that doesn't take anything away from the LC, because they're 95% the same car.
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bloc
SILVER Star
I love my kings, but there is no debate that the LX is the smarter and cheaper play for many people, offering most of the performance for way less work and investment. Still, I bought a cruiser knowing it would be more costly, and I'm glad I did. To me it feels a bit more special.
Personally I wouldn't even do a sensor lift on a LX, and have been advising my good friend with one not to. Just go +5 on the aspect ratio, use High as needed, maintain on-road stability and mileage, and enjoy.
But yeah.. OP's thread has gone into the weeds. Sorry I was a part of that.
I've owned several LCs over the years and recently purchased a 2021 Base model. With the exception of a Slee dual swing arm rear bumper I have it exactly how I want it...Soooo if I could give you any advice It would be to install a LR additional fuel cell as these "Beasts" get miserable gas milage...
Good luck w the search and purchase!
Don’t get me wrong…besides the AHC system, Lexus LX is a great SUV! Beautiful very high-quality interior…makes LC interior look like it came out of a Corolla. No offense to Corolla. LC has fake wood…now, THAT is a disgrace! The mouse-based infotainement system in LX is a bummer BUT the optional sound system (Mark Levinson) is truly phenomenal. I personally like the 2016+ LX exterior styling (if i was not off-roading much)...i kinda think LX exterior looks better than LC at some angles, esp rear view.
If you tow often, then LX is much better because AHC self-levels. If you have bad knees or have children or old folks, then AHC is better because it can kneel down.
So, it all depends on your priorities and what part of vehicle you emphasize on.
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I've had them both and I prefer things about both. Overall we are happier with the LC because we love its much more discreet nature, stealth wealth as I've heard it called lol. Hopefully Lexus got away from the trackpad and mouse based infotainments on the 300 LX, they suck.
Beautiful build! Almost exactly what I want to do to mine. Do you mind sharing your wheel and tire set up? I am also assuming you have an aftermarket suspension? Looks about 2-3 inches of lift. Thank you!
