F and 2F engines: Chevrolet influence?

[Living in the Past]

i dont think it was patterned after the chevy my opinion is the gmc 270 .i have both engines and they are close .years ago i used the water proof ignition from an m211 on a 65 fj40 bolted right in plugs and all. in 64 or so the engines were almost identical timing cover and valve cover .just my opinion based on having both engines the 270 gmc engine was used in the 6x6 trucks during ww2

The 270 makes sense if you figure the US military had a big presence in Japan post WWII. It is well know it was the US military that encouraged the production of the now Land Cruiser.

 

[ryanwk628]

What diesels were those? Only remember a few in the small pickups that were never good for towing. My parent bought mini motor home on a Toyota one ton chassis that to me was a dead trap. Have a trailer made from a early seventies Hilux. The spring in the rear as very light duty compared to a FJ40 from the same period. Had a friend who bought a new Datsun pickup in 1974. We went wood cutting and is rear spring inverted before the wood was piled to the top of the bed. My 68 FJ40 was stacked to the top and springs never moved. He traded it in on a new 75 FJ40. He bought one of the first ones imported to LA. Think it was the whole truck not just a weak diesel why it wasn't popular. I remember there was the Toyota pickup, Datsun pickup, Ford Courier made by Mazda and the Chevy Luv made by someone company in Japan (Mitsubishi?). Toyota won out and has ruled the now mid size truck market. But those trucks do not even compare to the Tacoma today. But if you count Hino Motors Toyota has had diesels here for a long time.

The 80's Chevy diesels no one wants. Cadillac Eldorado Diesel. Mercedes sedans.

From the NYT: As the World Embraces Diesels, Americans Still Play Hard to Get

“Quiet” and “diesel” are two words not usually seen together. When American consumers think of diesel-engine vehicles — if they think about them at all — other words most likely come to mind, like “noisy,” “smoky” and “slow.”

“That car was a train wreck; it was a disaster,” he said. Driving to Los Angeles, he couldn’t get up a mountain faster than 35 miles an hour.

Why diesel sputters in the US market

"The Olds diesel has been dogged by many reports of serious problems," wrote Popular Mechanic in 1981. "Ruined projection pumps and injectors, worn cams and valve lifters, cracked engine blocks, and even broken crankshafts."

"It was spewing black smoke and failing and just doing badly," says Bruce M Belzowski, managing director at the Automotive Futures group at the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute. "When you get to that point where people start to say, 'I'll never buy another one of those vehicles,' it hurts your reputation."

So among most non-truck driving American consumers diesel is still a dirty word. Add to that Europe had incentives in the form of taxes, where the US did not and had disincentives with our emissions standards (the whole idea of measuring per unit volume exhaust, rather than emission be unit of fuel consumed, is silly IMO because often running the engine less efficiently in terms of consumption yields better emissions results... but Im sure the oil lobby had nothing to do with that)

Why European Diesel Cars Are Not Available in the U.S.

 

[shelfboy1]

The 270 makes sense if you figure the US military had a big presence in Japan post WWII. It is well know it was the US military that encouraged the production of the now Land Cruiser.

the us military actuall had a landcruiser at abberdeen proving grounds, can you imagine the flack back then if they would have used a japenese vehicle in the military .from the article in wheels and tracks magazine it failed politicaly

 

[Living in the Past]

The 80's Chevy diesels no one wants. Cadillac Eldorado Diesel. Mercedes sedans.

From the NYT: As the World Embraces Diesels, Americans Still Play Hard to Get

“Quiet” and “diesel” are two words not usually seen together. When American consumers think of diesel-engine vehicles — if they think about them at all — other words most likely come to mind, like “noisy,” “smoky” and “slow.”

“That car was a train wreck; it was a disaster,” he said. Driving to Los Angeles, he couldn’t get up a mountain faster than 35 miles an hour.

Why diesel sputters in the US market

"The Olds diesel has been dogged by many reports of serious problems," wrote Popular Mechanic in 1981. "Ruined projection pumps and injectors, worn cams and valve lifters, cracked engine blocks, and even broken crankshafts."

"It was spewing black smoke and failing and just doing badly," says Bruce M Belzowski, managing director at the Automotive Futures group at the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute. "When you get to that point where people start to say, 'I'll never buy another one of those vehicles,' it hurts your reputation."

So among most non-truck driving American consumers diesel is still a dirty word. Add to that Europe had incentives in the form of taxes, where the US did not and had disincentives with our emissions standards (the whole idea of measuring per unit volume exhaust, rather than emission be unit of fuel consumed, is silly IMO because often running the engine less efficiently in terms of consumption yields better emissions results... but Im sure the oil lobby had nothing to do with that)

Why European Diesel Cars Are Not Available in the U.S.

Does Ford make the V10 gas engine or is it long gone? Believe in the truck world diesel is King. In cars gas is clearly the choice. SUVs are somewhere in between.


We can go round and round with opinions why, the only fact is Toyota was the one who didn't bring in a diesel LC or all the other options we never got not poor sales being the reason. You can say Toyota tried the Toyopet and it failed but not the diesel LC. While I'm not one of them there is a following today looking to import 4X series diesels. Currently no better for the modern roads we have today than back when these were new.

 

[AZMoonshadow]

The V-10 is still in production I believe in the E-350 and E-450 chassis. I own a 2-valve 1999 E-350 (15 passenger) and have always loved it.

 

[ryanwk628]

Does Ford make the V10 gas engine or is it long gone? Believe in the truck world diesel is King. In cars gas is clearly the choice. SUVs are somewhere in between.


We can go round and round with opinions why, the only fact is Toyota was the one who didn't bring in a diesel LC or all the other options we never got not poor sales being the reason. You can say Toyota tried the Toyopet and it failed but not the diesel LC. While I'm not one of them there is a following today looking to import 4X series diesels. Currently no better for the modern roads we have today than back when these were new.

Im not sure there is a debate or that this is subjective. The market research indicated there was not enough demand to justify the costs of compliance with US emissions standards. Yes there is a niche market, however a majority of US consumers had a negative opinion of diesels in the late 70s and onward. Toyota is incredibly aware of their markets. Manufacturers float the idea of a diesel via rumors or concept cars, then gauge interest off the response. Many times they do not feel there is enough enthusiasm to justify the risks of bringing it to market at a higher price tag and often with more requirements like urea systems.

When I interned at Toyota Motor Sales in Torrance it started with a 2 day long indoctrination in the company history and the TPS. They are VERY self aware and acknowledge this is from their initial US offerings being perceived as under-powered, small and inadequate for American drivers. They know their strength is "quality" which was defined to me by a Quality Engineer there as such: "Quality is what the customer expects." (Ive since seen a similar quote "quality is what the customer says it is.") Toyota, a brand hyper focused on quality as part of their identity, does not want to fail to deliver on any customer expectations. In the case of diesels, that is the American consumer's expectations of performance which rightly or wrongly is juxtaposed with American V8s. People have criticized them as being risk adverse because of this, but the results of decades of success speak for themselves.

 

[Living in the Past]

the us military actuall had a landcruiser at abberdeen proving grounds, can you imagine the flack back then if they would have used a japenese vehicle in the military .from the article in wheels and tracks magazine it failed politicaly

I have read that too. The tests were on the FJ25. If they were to have test a FJ40 with floor shifters (floor shift was standard in other markets) three speed and two speed transfer case like the jeep at the time would have even harder so say it wasn't a superior vehicle. The US military was using Land Cruisers in Korea during the fifties.

 

[OGBeno]

Im not sure there is a debate or that this is subjective. The market research indicated there was not enough demand to justify the costs of compliance with US emissions standards. Yes there is a niche market, however a majority of US consumers had a negative opinion of diesels in the late 70s and onward. Toyota is incredibly aware of their markets. Manufacturers float the idea of a diesel via rumors or concept cars, then gauge interest off the response. Many times they do not feel there is enough enthusiasm to justify the risks of bringing it to market at a higher price tag and often with more requirements like urea systems.

When I interned at Toyota Motor Sales in Torrance it started with a 2 day long indoctrination in the company history and the TPS. They are VERY self aware and acknowledge this is from their initial US offerings being perceived as under-powered, small and inadequate for American drivers. They know their strength is "quality" which was defined to me by a Quality Engineer there as such: "Quality is what the customer expects." (Ive since seen a similar quote "quality is what the customer says it is.") Toyota, a brand hyper focused on quality as part of their identity, does not want to fail to deliver on any customer expectations. In the case of diesels, that is the American consumer's expectations of performance which rightly or wrongly is juxtaposed with American V8s. People have criticized them as being risk adverse because of this, but the results of decades of success speak for themselves.

Very well said.

 

[73FJ40]

GMC 270 looks a lot like an F engine to me:

 

[OGBeno]

GMC 270 looks a lot like an F engine to me:

I want that jig setup BADLY....

Awesome.

 

[FJ40Jim]

It doesn't matter if somebody's opinion is that an F engine looks like a Chevy 235 or a big Jimmy or is Toyota's own design.

The fact is the tall deck GMC and the F engine have the same deck height, bore pitch, rod length, stroke, bore, wristpin diameter, lifter diameter, water pump mounting pattern, distributor, fuel pump....

 

[zebrabeefj40]

It doesn't matter if somebody's opinion is that an F engine looks like a Chevy 235 or a big Jimmy or is Toyota's own design.

The fact is the tall deck GMC and the F engine have the same deck height, bore pitch, rod length, stroke, bore, wristpin diameter, lifter diameter, water pump mounting pattern, distributor, fuel pump....

There you go again, letting facts get in the way of a feel-good story...bastid.

Nick

 

[shelfboy1]

I have read that too. The tests were on the FJ25. If they were to have test a FJ40 with floor shifters (floor shift was standard in other markets) three speed and two speed transfer case like the jeep at the time would have even harder so say it wasn't a superior vehicle. The US military was using Land Cruisers in Korea during the fifties.

 

[shelfboy1]

during war2 dodge trucks all had single speed t cases except the wc 62 and 63 6x6 dodge wonder if they had any influence on the fj25 set up.trying to find the photo i have of the fj25 at aberdeen

 

[TCEd]

Since diesels snuck into this thread did VW's software scam kill the market for diesel passengers cars in this country ?

 

[John in Utah]

Since diesels snuck into this thread did VW's software scam kill the market for diesel passengers cars in this country ?

If you read into the articles @ryanwk628 linked they touch on the VW scandal.

I was working at Cummins in emissions research at the time restrictions were really ratcheting down (right before the vw scandal) It’s my opinion that the R&D and infrastructure needed to produce comsumer vehicles to US diesel regulations is really cost prohibitive to the companies that haven’t been doing it from the start (ie the big 3). It’s really a shame since, when done right, modern diesel cars are incredibly clean with particulate and urea systems.

 

[ryanwk628]

Since diesels snuck into this thread did VW's software scam kill the market for diesel passengers cars in this country ?

It did not help. If Mazda actually comes through with Skyactive-D (they have been talking about it for years but have not got it to where they want it with our emissions) I think it will fill that niche, but it hurt mainstream appeal. Chevy did the cruz diesel but people had a hard time justifying the price tag. Everything is moving to smaller turbo motors to meet the MPG requirements, even in full size trucks. Those requirements are the biggest reason why there is a new wrangler out. My Accord with an NA V6 is not an option anymore, only a turbo 4. Diesels help fleet MPG, however I think the market is more receptive in trucks like Colorado and Tacoma than cars.

 

[Dizzy]

Back in the day, I swapped a Muncie 420 from a Chevy Apache into my '73 40 with the J30. With regard to bellhousing pattern and clutch input and output shafts' spline, does it track back with what domestic build?

 

[FJ40Jim]

Yes, the early Cruiser used many SAE standard things, like BH pattern, spline count & diameters, 1" diameter idler gear in t-case, etc.

 

[Living in the Past]

Yes, the early Cruiser used many SAE standard things, like BH pattern, spline count & diameters, 1" diameter idler gear in t-case, etc.

While the BH bolt pattern was the same the Toyota three speed input shaft was shorter. To use a SM420 with a F engine a spacer was required. What I didn't realize the bolt pattern on the FJ25 four speed is not the same as the FJ40 three. So Toyota changed the pattern to match. Never compared the 61 to mid 63 three speed to see which pattern it has. Believe it's like the later three speed but not 100% sure.