F and 2F engines: Chevrolet influence?

[FJ40Jim]

LITP, didn't somebody take apart a ~1950 Chevy 4-speed and a FJ25 4-speed and found them to be almost identical? Long time ago, maybe on 'mud or LCML or??

 

[TCEd]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[Living in the Past]

LITP, didn't somebody take apart a ~1950 Chevy 4-speed and a FJ25 4-speed and found them to be almost identical? Long time ago, maybe on 'mud or LCML or??

Believe that was a thread in the 25 section and was mainly Jim @Cruiser_Nerd and Phil @FJnotCJ who were comparing the two. Not sure either is around much lately.

 

[Dizzy]

While the BH bolt pattern was the same the Toyota three speed input shaft was shorter. To use a SM420 with a F engine a spacer was required. What I didn't realize the bolt pattern on the FJ25 four speed is not the same as the FJ40 three. So Toyota changed the pattern to match. Never compared the 61 to mid 63 three speed to see which pattern it has. Believe it's like the later three speed but not 100% sure.

So it kinda sounds like the imitation thing was still happening in '69 when Toyota came out with the J30 3-speed, as you are suggesting that the FJ25 bellhousing is different in bolt-pattern.

I don't recall using a spacer with the swap. The Toyota J30 input shaft is actually longer according to: SM420... It is a wider (longer) pilot bearing that supports the SM420 input shaft, no?

So, the Toyota J30 came out in '69, and the non-military-exclusive-SM420 was available from '47 to '67. The Novak Guide to the GM Muncie SM420 Transmission Interesting.

BTW, the floor-shift Toyota 3-speed shifter was a fine match for the SM420 after I bent it to clear the roll-cage and aftermarket center console.

 

[Living in the Past]

So it kinda sounds like the imitation thing was still happening in '69 when Toyota came out with the J30 3-speed, as you are suggesting that the FJ25 bellhousing is different in bolt-pattern.

I don't recall using a spacer with the swap. The Toyota J30 input shaft is actually longer according to: SM420... It is a wider (longer) pilot bearing that supports the SM420 input shaft, no?

So, the Toyota J30 came out in '69, and the non-military-exclusive-SM420 was available from '47 to '67. The Novak Guide to the GM Muncie SM420 Transmission Interesting.

BTW, the floor-shift Toyota 3-speed shifter was a fine match for the SM420 after I bent it to clear the roll-cage and aftermarket center console.

The J30 came out in 63. I have a 63 FSM a supplement for the change to the J30 and matching transfer case. Sure you looked at the parts listing that only goes back to 3/69. Years ago Toyota dropped anything in the parts system prior to that date even if parts are available. Just Toyota's way of thanking the early Land Cruiser buyers who help them establish a dealer network after they failed with the Toyopet.

 

[Cruiser_Nerd]

This thread is like a random stream of thought, or a discussion you might hear at a senior center.

The FJ25 was at Aberdeen to be evaluated for use by US personnel in the area of operations (Asia?), someone needs to go to the archives and do the research, I think @Indygbd was inquiring. Here is a random pic with a bunch of officers posing at the hood of a 25, but not necessarily anything to do with the topic.

 

[1911]

Here is a random pic with a bunch of officers posing at the hood of a 25, but not necessarily anything to do with the topic.
View attachment 1768476

True, since the officers in the photo are obviously British and Indian or Pakistani.

 

[Cat Scan]

There is no doubt of the similarities. Rumor, fact, or fiction? Supposedly Toyota purchased, and GM shipped, 250,000 in-line 6's for the first Toyota production runs. Meanwhile, they developed their own version. Can not say what year, and can not say what specific GM 6 was utilized. I was told this while a young man in the 70's. Perhaps while I was naive. There must be an archive somewhere that either confirms or denies this claim.

C.S.

 

[ryanwk628]

Rather than hijack a page on an already long thread (Matts engine build) I though I would put this on a new thread.

When the topic of the interchangeability of Chevy and F series engine parts came up I remembered some photos I took in Japan at the TOYOTA Commemorative Musemum of Industry and Technology one of the Toyota Museum of technology . Cool pictures on this one too TOYOTA AUTOMOBILE MUSEUM .

I wish I had taken more picures, had more time to spend etc. but my wife was struggling after 5 hours or so which was sort of understandable. Only disapointing thing was the lack Land Cruisers - even got left out of some timelines, perhaps because they were not cars, F series engine in particular.

Light green engine is the 1933 Chevy I6, black one is a 1935 Toyta (might still have been Toyoda?).

Truck is a replica of a G1 which used the engine, also used in the AA sedan.
View attachment 245999View attachment 246000View attachment 246001

Also:

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/toyota-land-cruiser/59345-true-origins-f-engine.html

I havent been able to track down the article referenced

 

[Living in the Past]

This thread is like a random stream of thought, or a discussion you might hear at a senior center.

More like visiting day at the senior center. I carry my senior citizen card. I remember the first car crunch and what I was driving at the time. Know how funny it is bringing articles from 2015 as to why we didn't have diesels back in 1975. Believe or not it was a different world.

There is no doubt of the similarities. Rumor, fact, or fiction? Supposedly Toyota purchased, and GM shipped, 250,000 in-line 6's for the first Toyota production runs. Meanwhile, they developed their own version. Can not say what year, and can not say what specific GM 6 was utilized. I was told this while a young man in the 70's. Perhaps while I was naive. There must be an archive somewhere that either confirms or denies this claim.

C.S.

Not sure all the vehicles Toyota was using inline six cylinders in at the beginning but it was a long time before Toyota produced a quarter million Land Cruisers. @JohnnyC has some pretty good stats. When Toyota started importing Land Cruisers sales were not in the hundred of thousands or even thousands units sold each year but was in the hundreds. Not clear import verses sales but possibly less than two hundred and fifty FJ25s were imported to the US. Toyota changed the VIN number system in 59 and again in 60 but believe the total number FJ25s ever produced it low.

 

[FJ40Jim]

In reference to the above pic of the A engine from the Toyota museum, I shall quote myself:
"Just to clarify:
The Toyoda A engine is a 3 main bearing inline 6 without full pressure oiling, copied from the Chevy 1st gen 207CID stovebolt, ca. 1928.
Toyoda/Toyota B engine is 4 main bearing without full pressure oiling, copied from Chevy's 2nd gen 216CID stovebolt, ca. 1936
Toyota F engine is 4 main bearing with full pressure oiling, copied from the GMC truck inline 6, ca. 1938. Architecture is from the tall deck 270, with bore size of the 228."

 

[Dizzy]

At what point did GM start with the siamese manifolds, and was it always a cast aluminum intake?

 

[73FJ40]

There is no doubt of the similarities. Rumor, fact, or fiction? Supposedly Toyota purchased, and GM shipped, 250,000 in-line 6's for the first Toyota production runs. Meanwhile, they developed their own version. Can not say what year, and can not say what specific GM 6 was utilized. I was told this while a young man in the 70's. Perhaps while I was naive. There must be an archive somewhere that either confirms or denies this claim.

C.S.

Doesn't this qualify as Fake news?

Clearly, FJ40Jim has the facts..

 

[ryanwk628]

In reference to the above pic of the A engine from the Toyota museum, I shall quote myself:
"Just to clarify:
The Toyoda A engine is a 3 main bearing inline 6 without full pressure oiling, copied from the Chevy 1st gen 207CID stovebolt, ca. 1928.
Toyoda/Toyota B engine is 4 main bearing without full pressure oiling, copied from Chevy's 2nd gen 216CID stovebolt, ca. 1936
Toyota F engine is 4 main bearing with full pressure oiling, copied from the GMC truck inline 6, ca. 1938. Architecture is from the tall deck 270, with bore size of the 228."

Pics or it didnt happen

 

[shelfboy1]

I had a friend back in the day who had a 63 and he swapped in a 292 Chevy six. I was told it was essentially a bolt in exchange but that was many years ago so I may be wrong. He ran the 292 for many years without problems.

i put several 292s in fj40s over the years and its not a bolt in exchange /40 years later 1 is still actually plowing snow.the earliest being a 1964