Interested to hear what kind of numbers we can expect with a mild to moderate cam grind with a relatively unchanged idle...ok maybe a little lope would sound cool.
Engine tuning
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Interested to hear what kind of numbers we can expect with a mild to moderate cam grind with a relatively unchanged idle...ok maybe a little lope would sound cool.
I think idle's going to change even with a mild cam. Not necessarily to a hot rod type lope but there's going to be some difference.
The talks are early going and I shared several of the main concerns about maintaining a reliable motor, easy driving characteristics, smog considerations, etc. Funnily, first words out of his mouth when we started talking was "throw the exhaust manifolds away. I've actually seen some restrict airflow so badly that the exhaust gets back into the cylinder instead of out the manifold in the proper manner". I shared the success most of have had with the DT headers and he thought that was great. For some reason his pointing to the manifold was reassuring in a way that gave me some confidence in his knowledge.
After a long couple conversations Eric suggested the cam as the main area for the our next upgrade. He offers a few different cam profiles but the 3 we discussed as good fits for the 4.7L are as follows ...
208 with .354 lift = ~20-25hp
218 with .356 lift = ~30-35hp
230 with .406 lift = 40 or more hp
Keep in mind the HP numbers are for a stock motor and he says they'll likely go up when combined with better manifolds. So if you have the DT header and pick up one of his cams, the potential total is ~45 with the lighter cam and as high as 70ish with the agresive cam.
Prices will vary if we can actually put together a group buy but expect the higher side of full retail rates to be about $3,000-3,2000 which includes the core charges for the cams. A group buy discount and not purchasing the recommended valve springs could get the costs down to $1,500-1,800 (without the core charges or after a refund).
Back to the group buy really quick. This could be a bit trickier to organize because of the shear number of cams. Dual overhead cams equals 4 cams per order so his business just can't support a huge 20 person group buy (which is 80 cams). He was thinking more like 5 person group buys. Obviously we want the best pricing so maybe there could be a way to work out a steeper discount where 10-20 guys pay up front but the orders are full filled in 5 person groups.
Installation should be easier than the header install but might be just about as time consuming. He says 5 hours with a helper but shimming valves and reworking heads is his entire life's work. I'd be way more nervous about screwing up so double, triple, and even double-double-triple checking would be the reason I'd expect the installation to take longer. Say 10 hours or a nice weekend.
More to come as this moves forward. Also, keep in mind he's used to building higher end race motors so I imagine he's a master at milking more out of a motor through precision machining and some pretty good know-how. But it also makes talking about drivability, reliability, normal idle, reasonable gas milage and mild exhaust notes tough. Some of those terms just don't make a lot of sense to him. And what's a "mild" cam to him might be illegal to the CARB police or just plain undrivable for a daily driver or trail rig.
The talks are early going and I shared several of the main concerns about maintaining a reliable motor, easy driving characteristics, smog considerations, etc. Funnily, first words out of his mouth when we started talking was "throw the exhaust manifolds away. I've actually seen some restrict airflow so badly that the exhaust gets back into the cylinder instead of out the manifold in the proper manner". I shared the success most of have had with the DT headers and he thought that was great. For some reason his pointing to the manifold was reassuring in a way that gave me some confidence in his knowledge.
After a long couple conversations Eric suggested the cam as the main area for the our next upgrade. He offers a few different cam profiles but the 3 we discussed as good fits for the 4.7L are as follows ...
208 with .354 lift = ~20-25hp
218 with .356 lift = ~30-35hp
230 with .406 lift = 40 or more hp
Keep in mind the HP numbers are for a stock motor and he says they'll likely go up when combined with better manifolds. So if you have the DT header and pick up one of his cams, the potential total is ~45 with the lighter cam and as high as 70ish with the agresive cam.
Prices will vary if we can actually put together a group buy but expect the higher side of full retail rates to be about $3,000-3,2000 which includes the core charges for the cams. A group buy discount and not purchasing the recommended valve springs could get the costs down to $1,500-1,800 (without the core charges or after a refund).
Back to the group buy really quick. This could be a bit trickier to organize because of the shear number of cams. Dual overhead cams equals 4 cams per order so his business just can't support a huge 20 person group buy (which is 80 cams). He was thinking more like 5 person group buys. Obviously we want the best pricing so maybe there could be a way to work out a steeper discount where 10-20 guys pay up front but the orders are full filled in 5 person groups.
Installation should be easier than the header install but might be just about as time consuming. He says 5 hours with a helper but shimming valves and reworking heads is his entire life's work. I'd be way more nervous about screwing up so double, triple, and even double-double-triple checking would be the reason I'd expect the installation to take longer. Say 10 hours or a nice weekend.
More to come as this moves forward. Also, keep in mind he's used to building higher end race motors so I imagine he's a master at milking more out of a motor through precision machining and some pretty good know-how. But it also makes talking about drivability, reliability, normal idle, reasonable gas milage and mild exhaust notes tough. Some of those terms just don't make a lot of sense to him. And what's a "mild" cam to him might be illegal to the CARB police or just plain undrivable for a daily driver or trail rig.
An important thing to note about his limited production capacity is this: There are currently NO aftermarket cam blanks for the 2UZ motor. Each cam comes from an OEM core which is hard-welded and reprofiled to TTC's specs, and this is a time consuming process. Finding that many cores in usable condition at one time is almost impossible, hence the limited runs.
If I was only gonna to drive where AAA would help I'd have done built mah motor up reel long time ago
You're right Fuzz and that's why the group buy will tougher to negotiate. I think we can still pull it off. Also, I discussed this directly with the owner and he has agreed to refund the core charges in full (for usable cams) so even though the core charge is $600 getting the refund makes the final price much lower.
After more conversations with TTC, and really re-stressing the drivability and importance of torque it looks like the 218 cam is the one recommended for our application. With minimal changes to torque curves etc, they're suggesting the 218 cam will provide an additional 30-35hp and for those with the DT headers closer to 40hp. That's a nice pump when combined with the 20-22hp already coming from the DT header.
Loud, more to your point I'd imagine the issue to be one of having a different torque curve or amount of torque in a certain point in the rpm range than one of reliability. A cam change won't really do much to the valves, if done properly. And it's highly likely that you'll increase the reliability of the top end of the motor if you upgrade the valve springs at the same time (which TTC highly recommends as it lowers the chance of a valve erratically floating plus it safely and substantially raises the redline). It's not likely that the cam upgrade can/would affect the bottom end of the motor in anyway and the extra HP won't be much of a factor towards wear-n-tear.
After more conversations with TTC, and really re-stressing the drivability and importance of torque it looks like the 218 cam is the one recommended for our application. With minimal changes to torque curves etc, they're suggesting the 218 cam will provide an additional 30-35hp and for those with the DT headers closer to 40hp. That's a nice pump when combined with the 20-22hp already coming from the DT header.
Loud, more to your point I'd imagine the issue to be one of having a different torque curve or amount of torque in a certain point in the rpm range than one of reliability. A cam change won't really do much to the valves, if done properly. And it's highly likely that you'll increase the reliability of the top end of the motor if you upgrade the valve springs at the same time (which TTC highly recommends as it lowers the chance of a valve erratically floating plus it safely and substantially raises the redline). It's not likely that the cam upgrade can/would affect the bottom end of the motor in anyway and the extra HP won't be much of a factor towards wear-n-tear.
I'm in total agreement with Darin here. Not sure how much the reliability would be affected provided you buy the recommended valve springs (it'd be stupid not to IMO). Certain cam grinds might affect the torque/hp curve in ways that are less desireable for off road driving, but that is specifically what Eric is trying to help us avoid.
I think that headers, TTC cams, and some form of tuning would net some substantial gains. Along the way I think that we would probably start seeing the limitations of the OEM airbox assembly, and an aftermarket system may become necessary. Emphasis on may. We are in uncharted waters with this stuff for now.
I would be interested in seeing the final price depending on how many think this is something that they would be interested in, and I want to do more research on tuning options to see where we could go with it.
I think that headers, TTC cams, and some form of tuning would net some substantial gains. Along the way I think that we would probably start seeing the limitations of the OEM airbox assembly, and an aftermarket system may become necessary. Emphasis on may. We are in uncharted waters with this stuff for now.
I would be interested in seeing the final price depending on how many think this is something that they would be interested in, and I want to do more research on tuning options to see where we could go with it.
Agreed Fuzz.
I'll continue researching cam effects to motors in general (a few of my friends are BMW tuners) and working with Eric to learn more about TTC specifics. Eventually we can present a thread to the Mudders and see who's really interested and not.
This is real preliminary and based on our unofficial discussions with Eric but it seems there'd be about a $300 savings for cams + springs. So I'm guessing pricing would like: purchase price of ~$2,600 with a final price of $2,000 (after cores are returned & refunded). I think there could be another $100 or $200 more savings if we got enough guys.
And paying roughly $2k and getting 30-40 hp is a very worth while project IMO. Adding that bump to the header increase (a combined 60hp total), these trucks will be putting out just under 300 hp. A tune or tune w/ intake mod will surely get a Mudder in the 300 and up range. For a total cost of $3-4k it's a fraction of the SC and turbo costs while maintaining the reliability and desired torque curves for daily driving and trails.
I'll continue researching cam effects to motors in general (a few of my friends are BMW tuners) and working with Eric to learn more about TTC specifics. Eventually we can present a thread to the Mudders and see who's really interested and not.
This is real preliminary and based on our unofficial discussions with Eric but it seems there'd be about a $300 savings for cams + springs. So I'm guessing pricing would like: purchase price of ~$2,600 with a final price of $2,000 (after cores are returned & refunded). I think there could be another $100 or $200 more savings if we got enough guys.
And paying roughly $2k and getting 30-40 hp is a very worth while project IMO. Adding that bump to the header increase (a combined 60hp total), these trucks will be putting out just under 300 hp. A tune or tune w/ intake mod will surely get a Mudder in the 300 and up range. For a total cost of $3-4k it's a fraction of the SC and turbo costs while maintaining the reliability and desired torque curves for daily driving and trails.
I'm researching ported and polished heads as an option as well.
I be interested, given an actual dyno with results afterwards. Group buys are my latest weakness.
Stupid question here, but what good does the extra power do for us? I've certainly had higher power engines (my 5.7 tundra) but my diesel defender 110 with half the torque and power of the 100 series went anywhere I tried to take it.
I could see the advantage when towing, but offroading I don't see that the extra power would be better than other mods I could make for the cost (like air lockers or increasing the travel of the front suspension). Don't get me wrong, extra power would be nice, but I think it would be pretty low on my upgrade list priority, especially at this price/return range, or am I missing something?
I could see the advantage when towing, but offroading I don't see that the extra power would be better than other mods I could make for the cost (like air lockers or increasing the travel of the front suspension). Don't get me wrong, extra power would be nice, but I think it would be pretty low on my upgrade list priority, especially at this price/return range, or am I missing something?
The only thing you are missing, is that we aren't looking to increase horsepower for offroad driving. It's for general driveability everywhere else. 
In my situation (living up at altitude), the extra power would make a world of difference in driveability. Every vehicle is anemic up here, but the 100 is especially laggy compared to my Suburban (and the burb has 100k more miles on it). For mountain driving especially, a few extra ponies would be wonderful. Cams combined with DT headers would be excellent, and both together wouldn't cost as much as a supercharger kit.
In my situation (living up at altitude), the extra power would make a world of difference in driveability. Every vehicle is anemic up here, but the 100 is especially laggy compared to my Suburban (and the burb has 100k more miles on it). For mountain driving especially, a few extra ponies would be wonderful. Cams combined with DT headers would be excellent, and both together wouldn't cost as much as a supercharger kit.
Fuzz already said it. The extra power is for the daily driving and not for off road (although no harm there either).
And since the tuning isn't adding displacement or forced induction, it's probably increasing efficiency too.
Id imagine theres no loss of MPG or reliability.
You guys are imagining things.
Installation of hot cams in a 2UZ-FE will almost certainly have negative effects on efficiency, reliability, and general-use drive-ability.
If you were building a drag racer or a sled-pulling vehicle, then the aftermarket cams might be worthwhile. But in those cases, you'd be better off with a big-block Chevy, not a 4.7 liter Toyota.
Have you noticed the smoothness of the 4.7 Toyota?
Have you noticed that the engine requires NO internal maintenance?
Have you noticed that it starts every time and provides plenty of power and torque for 100% of general-use situations?
The 2UZ-FE represents a zenith of automotive engineering. (apart from the exhaust manifolds)...
These engines will run 300k miles without even looking at the internals.
Toyota put their best engineers on the 2UZ-FE, and they designed the factory cam profile to work in concert with the rest of the engine and the vehicle as a whole. Part of the reason these trucks last so long is because they do not vibrate.
Sure you can squeeze-out more peak power with hot cams
(and i agree, a little lope at idle WOULD be cool).
But are you willing to sacrifice smoothness and reliability for some extra horsepower that you can show your friends on the dyno printout?
If you want a truck with lots of horsepower that sounds like a Chevy and runs like a Chevy, then get a Chevy.
If you replace the cams in the 2UZ-FE, I think you are missing the point.
I agree with loud on this one:
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Subscribed. I was pretty set on going with a Slee Turbo but if I saw real world dyno's of some engine upgrades I'd be all over it for the cost.
I dyno'd before I did the DT Header upgrade to understand my LX's baseline. As well, I'm certain there's more under the hood for the 4.7L but the "where" and at "what cost" still remain a mystery. Enough guys have tried the easy bolt on stuff to know that there's not much real world gain with these mods. I'm guessing we'll need to do more substantial stuff: polished intakes, porting heads, different cams, etc.
Keep in mind that my intentions aren't to have a hot rod. I'd like to keep the original reliability and characteristics of this motor but with power closer to 300. 20hp already comes from headers so a massage here or there to some of the other major components should be reasonable and within range.
Keep in mind that my intentions aren't to have a hot rod. I'd like to keep the original reliability and characteristics of this motor but with power closer to 300. 20hp already comes from headers so a massage here or there to some of the other major components should be reasonable and within range.
Has anyone spent any time on Lextreme? Looks like they will address the internals and have some experience doing it.
There's an article on some crazy tuning, supercharging, turbo and NOS on a 2UZFE engine: Single Turbo Toyota Tundra
I've seen some references of Tundra owners using the universal STS Turbo system which is $2k for a single turbo or $3k for a twin. Seems like that's a more reasonable cost for a turbo.
There's an article on some crazy tuning, supercharging, turbo and NOS on a 2UZFE engine: Single Turbo Toyota Tundra
I've seen some references of Tundra owners using the universal STS Turbo system which is $2k for a single turbo or $3k for a twin. Seems like that's a more reasonable cost for a turbo.
^^^Guys, beware of Lextreme, it could easily breed a newer and more expensive branch into your LC build thoughts! They know these motors in and out over there and even offer parts for a stroker! Really really cool stuff going on over there. Don't say you weren't warned,
