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Engine Removal ~ Worth it?

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by C6H12O6, Mar 5, 2007.

  1. C6H12O6

    C6H12O6

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    I've been pouring over the archived posts and it sounds like I have a couple issues pending. I just went from a very sporadic 1 quart of oil consumption per 1500-2000 miles, down to 1 qt. in about 600 miles. Still no smoke, still no leaks or drips when sitting. It only seems to lose oil when running. I have been keeping an eye on the arches, as I do have a little bit of oil seeping out there, but this is more oil and more towards the front. So, here is the list:

    1) Leaking/ oil pan arches ~ front and rear
    2) Another leak up front ~ I'm guessing maybe oil pump o-ring or ???
    3) Impending head gasket PM ~ a couple scares, but I'd like to do it my terms

    From what I read and gather by looking at it, each of these would be much easier with the engine out of the truck. At what point is it worth pulling the engine? That sounds like a bitch in and of itself, but I'm wondering if the PITA of engine removal would cut the work load of these jobs to make it worth it in the long run. I'll have the time this summer to have a little down-time to get it all done, but I don't know if I really have the space to pull the motor.

    Any suggestions?
     
  2. landtank

    landtank SILVER Star

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    replace the PCV valve and grommet. That might be the bulk of your consumption right there. Just be careful of the grommet as it can be brittle and break apart when you try and remove it.
     
  3. C6H12O6

    C6H12O6

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    Yeah, I already did that. It has a new PCV from Dan, new grommet, new air filter, two oil changes with the current loss on the same oil I have run since I bought it two years ago (M1 0W40 and OEM large filter), all the plugs look the same, etc. I haven't done much beyond that to chase this down, but I'm just trying to plan my summer around the worst case scenario. The truck runs like a champ, other than the oil light coming on every two weeks.
     
  4. landtank

    landtank SILVER Star

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    the next thing would be to change the brand of oil you are using. A quart every 600 miles would make a hell of a mess if it was leaking.
     
  5. Ting

    Ting

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    Just curious...What's the mileage on it?
     
  6. landtoy80

    landtoy80

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    My 80 drank M1 oil excessively at high rpm's.
    It would suck a qt in one tank of gas if I pushed it hard.
    I went to Rotella T 5W40 syn and the drinking of gas at high rpm's is over.
     
  7. cpg

    cpg

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    When that oil pump o ring goes it can go from a seep to a leak pretty fast. I would not pull the engine for the crank seal, oil pump o ring, and head gasket. Also Mobil 1 15-50 had better oil pressure and less seepage than the M1 10-30.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2007
  8. C6H12O6

    C6H12O6

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    I'm getting close to another oil change interval, so I might just keep topping it off until then and change brands to see how things go. I would think the mess would be substantial, but it really isn't. There is a light coating and a few visible pre-drips along the edges of the pan, and the front of the engine has a light coating, but it really doesn't look significantly more than it was at half the rate of consumption. I'm sorta stumped. I would think that much oil coming out that quickly would show up more, but it really isn't.

    I do have the black residue on the underside of the distributor that looks like worn belt material mixed with oil (I forget what that was supposed to mean ~ I guess I need to read the archives again), but no wet oil anywhere but underneath the engine.

    I'm nowhere near pulling the trigger on yanking the engine, but I'm looking at people saying the oil pan job is 12+ hours, $$$$ and special tools for the oil pump o-ring, and the prospect of leaning over my ARB bumper and a lifted truck to do the HG and wondering if it wouldn't just be easier to pull the motor and get it all done outside of the truck. If it's 12 hours to lift the motor enough to re-do the oil pan gaskets, is it really that much farther to just yank the motor? I was thinking it might be like pulling the rotors and being most of the way to a front axle job.
     
  9. chibo

    chibo

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    I'd do a leakdown test, it'll rule the rings out... or tell you that's where the oil is going. It'll also test your HG...
    To elaborate (this is from past experience and I assume it still holds in 1FZ-FE world), while doing the leakdown test open the rad cap, if there are bubbles coming out then you popped your hg; open the oil fill cap and if you hear wooshing then your ring is toasted.

    edit: I say this because unless the leaks you listed are major then there is probably something else wrong too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2007
  10. KingOfFools

    KingOfFools

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    I'm nowhere near pulling the trigger on yanking the engine, but I'm looking at people saying the oil pan job is 12+ hours, $$$$ and special tools for the oil pump o-ring, and the prospect of leaning over my ARB bumper and a lifted truck to do the HG and wondering if it wouldn't just be easier to pull the motor and get it all done outside of the truck. If it's 12 hours to lift the motor enough to re-do the oil pan gaskets, is it really that much farther to just yank the motor? I was thinking it might be like pulling the rotors and being most of the way to a front axle job.[/quote]

    I'd yank the front tires and bumper before I pulled the engine. They are not a lot of fun, and if you do it the way I did it with the trans bolted to the engine, you're gonna need a forklift or a small crane to pick it up high enough to get it out of the engine compartment. I know its tempting, but I would leave it in. Just my 2 cents...:beer:
     
  11. C6H12O6

    C6H12O6

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    yeah, I thought about removing the bumper and radiator clip to gain some access to the front. Might be a lot easier than pulling the motor.
     
  12. cpg

    cpg

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    The special tool is really simple here is what i made with 7 dollars worth of steel and you can use it on your pinion gears also. With the radiator out the oil pump is very easy to get to. Also with the aircleaner out the head gasket is not bad either.
    tool.JPG tool1.JPG pilpump.JPG
     
  13. fzj80kidpen

    fzj80kidpen

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    Sounds like front crankshaft seal to me.
    Mine leaks a little as well and I need to do this.
    I am at the 1 quart per 1500 miles now
     
  14. CreeperSleeper

    CreeperSleeper SILVER Star

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    ... alright, alright. Twist my arm.... I'll help you with whatever you decide to do. I'm game for either and may even let you borrow a car out of my fleet until it gets done... (I'm such a good friend... don't forget it.:flipoff2:)
     
  15. landtank

    landtank SILVER Star

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    Any interest out there for a tool similar to what CPG made? With his blessing I could work up something similar and have my guy make a bunch.

    Then again CPG, you could do the same.
     
  16. toylndcrusr

    toylndcrusr

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    This has been argued before with my opinion being the only one of dissension in favor of pulling the engine. I have not PM'd my HG or removed the engine from my Land Cruiser's. I have however, worked on over 100 vehicles, and done HG's on several dozen cars and trucks. Most were in-line engines with timing chains rather than belts. Some were on lifted trucks, most with combination body/suspension lifts. I say all of this as a clear caveat to anything I may say in support of my opinion that pulling the engine for these makes the work easier to perform, and worth the extra effort.

    First, if you pull the head, you must remove the air intake, fuel delivery system, wiring harness and intake and exhaust manifolds. To get to the lower end of the front of the engine, the radiator must come out. At this point all that remains to get the engine out is the motor mounts and the bell housing bolts. If at this point you decide to pull the head off the engine, the heater hoses at the firewall will make you wish the engine was on a stand. Imagine trying to gently place the head back on the engine and new HG with the long reach required, combined with the weight of the head, and those hoses suck!

    Second, if your gonna do a bunch of PM like arches, main seals, PS pump etc, all of these jobs are much MUCH easier to do with the engine on a stand, and the rear main isn't accessible unless the engine and trans are separated anyway.

    And lastly, cleaning the old gasket material off the block is tedious job. I would not risk scraping the old gasket material without removing the oil pan because it is difficult to thoroughly clean the deck without getting some material into the oil galleys and water jacket. Cleaning the cylinders after removing the old gasket is easy, but even using a shop vac while scraping doesn't catch everything, and I don't like the idea of having gasket material in the pan. With the engine on a stand and the pans removed, all the galleys can be thoroughly cleaned, and the deck is about a thousand times easier to clean and inspect for trueness if it's on a stand. Bending over the fender to do this stuff is hard on my back.

    Plus, my oil pressure is a bit low, so if I were to go into my engine, I would want to plastigage my mains while I was in there. This is just my personal preference, a system developed over more then a decade of wrenching out of my own shop. Having an engine hoist and engine stand available make the decision easier, but these items are so cheap and readily available these days, that anyone can get them. If you do choose remove the engine (remembering that the transmission must be supported) you back will thank you. You can spend hours leaning over the fenders, or sitting on a roll-around shop stool. When you replace the head on the block, you and a trusted friend can struggle with the weight and the reach and the freaking heater hoses, or you can easily set the head with gentle precision.

    There are many others here who think I am insane for pulling the engine to do a HG. I say they don't know what they are missing. But to each his or her own. This works best for me. Plus there are little tricks like using looooong extensions to remove the bell housing bolts from the foot of the trans. Do this enough times and you will find a system that works best for you. Good luck with it!
     
  17. KingOfFools

    KingOfFools

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    The equipment plays a huge roll in the decision, but if the engine is pulled with the trans, (the top bellhousing bolts, transmission cooling lines and wiring harness are a PITA) a standard engine hoist is NOT up to the task. A chain hoist with a very high ceiling would be ideal. With the need for that and the required work to split the motor in the truck, if working anywhere except a well equiped proffesional shop I would do it in the truck. If it was almost any other vehicle I'd yank it and do it on the bench. I've done it both ways on the 1FZs, neither way is real comfortable, but if its anything short of a complete rebuild, I'll leave them in frame. And yes, my back hates me. :cheers:
     
  18. toylndcrusr

    toylndcrusr

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    King,

    I have only ever pulled one engine with the trans attached. One of the top bell housing bolts was frozen, and by the time I got ahold of the truck, the bolt was destroyed, so there were two options, cut an access hole in the floor to get to the bolt, or pull the trans with the engine. Man what a huge PITA! I had to take all four tires off and support the truck on jack stands (it was lifted), and I underestimated the room needed to get the hoist, engine, trans clear of the truck, and that turned into a huge fiasco. All that just so I could grind what was left of that bolt off. That one had an auto trans too, and between the caked on motor oil and trans fluid it was a huge mess. I cut my hands to ribbons on the flashing on the trans case. That one wasn't too long before I quit wrenching for $$$. And you know what? I don't miss it:D
     
  19. KingOfFools

    KingOfFools

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    I don't blame you! Mine was the one I pulled as an assembly.....talk about suck. At least I was able to pressure wash everything. I only work on stuff for friends and family now, gives me more time in the office to play on mud and get asked how much noises cost to fix.:confused:
     
  20. jditom

    jditom

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    X2,

    I would try Shell Rotella 5/40 before doing anything.;p