Engine Knock, need some educated help!

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Azca

If there is a harder way - I will find it...
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Threads
147
Messages
1,987
Location
Surprise AZ.
Hi guys, trying not to just throw parts at the engine. The engine is knocking when it gets up to operating temp and air temperature is over 90. I have checked timing, increased octane to 91 and even dumped in some octane booster, still has a knock. Also tried seafoam for carbon build up with no difference noticed.

I will try spark plugs next, but the ones that are in there now have less than 14k miles on them. Before I go and rip out the knock sensor(s) do you have any other suggestions? It is not throwing any error codes either...
 
Strain your oil through a coffee filter. Also, drop the oil pan and see if there is metal. This should tell you if its a bearing problem.
 
Strain your oil through a coffee filter. Also, drop the oil pan and see if there is metal. This should tell you if its a bearing problem.

Just got an oil report from blackstone labs a few weeks ago, everything looked good. It was knocking before I sent the report.
 
Hi guys, trying not to just throw parts at the engine. The engine is knocking when it gets up to operating temp and air temperature is over 90. I have checked timing, increased octane to 91 and even dumped in some octane booster, still has a knock. Also tried seafoam for carbon build up with no difference noticed.

I will try spark plugs next, but the ones that are in there now have less than 14k miles on them. Before I go and rip out the knock sensor(s) do you have any other suggestions? It is not throwing any error codes either...
Why not have Camelback Toyota take a look? At the very least give Murf a call. That would be the best time and money spent IMO.
 
That is a great idea, just don't have $ to spend at the moment. I will give him a shout anyway and see what he can do...
 
My vote is pinging due to the mention of octane boosters.

Not an expert in Toyota Engines, however, most modern vehicles have what is called in laymans terms 'knock' sensors. Usually two of them on V engines, one on the left bank and one on the right bank. They detect teh high frequency ringing that occurs when the air-fuel mixture predetonates on compression (before the plug fires).

Generally the tests of these sensors can range from 'replace with known good' to a simple resistance check. Also, in some cases, a small amount of pinging is actually considered normal. But not a prolonged ping, as that can destroy an engine. So if it only pings say pressing the accelerator but the ping tapers off to almost none, you may be in one of those marginal vehicles.

The first place to look is the actual static engine timing at idle, make sure it's in spec and not tweaked up a few degrees.

The second place to look is the ensure all teh vacuum lines are 'right' and go where they should. Most cars have a vacuum advance circuit. If that is not working well, it may be advancing too much all the time (the static test might show higher advance, and teh vacuum system woul dbe the next thing to test.

After that - look for vacuum leaks that might lead to lean burn conditions by checking plug color - lots of references for 'proper' plug color on the web. The benefit of popping the plugs out and looking are many: one plug may be burned/discolored enough you know which cylinder to chase in the next step.

After no leaks, then might be an injector that isn't flowing well. Use a long screw driver or stethoscope to listen to each cylinder to find the culprit (if ping can be produced standing still, otherwise see Arab 2'wheel manual for how to use stethoscope at speed...

The last place to look are the knock sensors... or do this earlier if the test is a simple resistiance check.
 
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What weight oil are you using and does it knock at idle or under power?
 
I think he needs to establish whether it is a KNOCK (bearing noise) or a PING (preignition). Based on what he's said, it appears to be preignition.
 
To me it seems like pinging. I only hear it when engine is at operating temperature AND air temp is over 90. Driving in the mornings she is good, on the way home from work is when I notice it. I did shift it into neutral yesterday and did not notice it. Need to spend more time trying it today to see if it does the same. Will let you know.
 
Could be something simple (and hard to find) like a pin hole or a crack in a vacuum line.

If it were me, diagnostic test via Murf will point you in the right direction.
 
Place your phone into audio record mode, lay it on the dash or console and try to record what you are hearing. Will make diagnosis much much easier.
 
Will try to record again tomorrow. But after "playing" with it I have come up with the following observations.
  • She does not knock when in neutral or park and slowly, or quickly for that matter, reving the engine
  • The rattle (now I am sure it is not a knock) starts off slow then quickly grows in volume as RPM is increased finally dying, or being drowned out by the engine, somewhere around 1500 RPM.
  • When the transmission is engaged, forward or reverse, I can induce the rattle but I have to work at it.
  • It is easier to get it to rattle from a stop and accelerate or from a slow roll and accelerate
  • Trans fluid is good, perhaps too much. changed about 15k ago with synthetic
  • Oil is good, 10/40 Mobil 1 high mileage (changed about 1500 miles ago)
  • Octane has no bearing on the rattle
  • Rattle does not occur when:
  • Engine is cold, despite ambient temperature
  • Engine is at operating temperature and the ambient temperature is below 85
 
Will try to record again tomorrow. But after "playing" with it I have come up with the following observations.
  • She does not knock when in neutral or park and slowly, or quickly for that matter, reving the engine
  • The rattle (now I am sure it is not a knock) starts off slow then quickly grows in volume as RPM is increased finally dying, or being drowned out by the engine, somewhere around 1500 RPM.
  • When the transmission is engaged, forward or reverse, I can induce the rattle but I have to work at it.
  • It is easier to get it to rattle from a stop and accelerate or from a slow roll and accelerate
  • Trans fluid is good, perhaps too much. changed about 15k ago with synthetic
  • Oil is good, 10/40 Mobil 1 high mileage (changed about 1500 miles ago)
  • Octane has no bearing on the rattle
  • Rattle does not occur when:
  • Engine is cold, despite ambient temperature
  • Engine is at operating temperature and the ambient temperature is below 85

You have just defined predetonation. It also sounds vacuum related (based on throttle position and load -- or air mass flow).

The only thing that would conflict is the idea it will ping while slowly reving the engine in PARK but wait - you said is does NOT ping in park! Engines will predetonate under those conditions, but normally it's more noticeable under a light to medium load.

How long has it been since you changed the air cleaner? And is it STOCK OEM air cleaner or a cheap parts store brand? And I'd check all vacuum hoses around the ait cleaner to make sure they are attached where they belong and in good working order. But as an FYI, some pinging is normal and expected. You might be in a snipe hunt (to use someone else's vernacular).
 
Newer air cleaner, less than 15 k on the clock, not oem. I have replaced 90+ % of the rubber under the hood in the last year,m everything except what is under the intake manifold that is. I have not replaced the fuel filter yet, sitting on my shelf now. I guess I get to play "trace the hose" now and make sure everything lines up with the diagram.
 
Hadn't made any calls yet, not much I can do until Saturday anyway. I did make a couple recordings. Apologize for the wind noise. The second video had the best shot at recording as I was able to get it to knock pretty good by reving between 800 and 1200 RPM but it didn't record very well...



 
Hadn't made any calls yet, not much I can do until Saturday anyway. I did make a couple recordings. Apologize for the wind noise. The second video had the best shot at recording as I was able to get it to knock pretty good by reving between 800 and 1200 RPM but it didn't record very well...






Sounds like a bad bearing in one of the following: alternator, water pump, A/C, A.C tension pulley, or alternator belt idler pulley. Have you tried to identify it with a stethoscope? John
 
No sure hadn't and I think I still have one hiding around here somewhere. I replaced the water pump and idler pulley when I replaced the leaking oil pump gasket and crank seals. Wouldn't you also hear it when in neutral? Also no go on the rattle when cool. Can't get it to rattle when in neutral and reving the engine no matter how much I try.
 
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