Dual Battery questions

[firetruck41]

My BFG's don't have any warranty associated with them, and it's good product.

You are wrong, they do, as most quality products do.

 

[mobi-arc]

You crack me up and I like your direct attitude. Mud member supplying testimonials...talk to Spressomon or what's his name...Christo Slee. Look at your options and make an informed decision.

I'm not your Buddy, I'm your antagonist.

You take every opportunity to run down the other manufacturers of dual battery electronic products calling them inefficient, failure prone, BS, old technology, etc. You continue to spread FUD about competing products; even those with lifetime warranties.

You don't supply us facts to back up your claims and you expect us to take your word because you've disassembled a similar solenoid.

Where are the 'Mud members supplying testimonials on your product? I've read 5 or 10 write-ups on the Hellroaring product. I've seen many positive reviews on the SurePower. I've read Raven's writeup on the BlueSea ACR. You've been telling us how great your product is for almost 3 years; 2 of those years it was vaporware. You are a vendor hawking your wares in the non-Vendor areas so I believe you should be prepared for some critique of your product and your claims of it's vast superiority to all of your competitors.

I'm not your Buddy, I'm a skeptic and I apologize to the group if I come across too direct.

-B-

 

[mobi-arc]

Me too....this gets old...and it's always the same guys going through the same tit-for-tat. I'm sure you'll weigh your options and figure our what works best for you. Like most people here, this board is a diversion and a forum for exchanging ideas and information and if I've got insight, information, or opinions to share, I'm going to share them. It's not my intention to use it as a distribution channel.

MrMoMo, Rich, MikeS, bulldog-yota, firetruck41 -- thanks for the great info!

mobi-arc, while your product may be splendiferous, it is also VERY new in this market. You would probably get less push-back if you weren't so aggressive in your marketing/hyping/evangelizing/promoting on the forum. I've seen multiple threads degenerage into yada-yada-yada once the PowerGate is mentioned. (where's that dead-horse?)

I'll post-up my plans for review/comment once I get them off of the paper napkins and postits

 

[Hants]

Me too....this gets old...and it's always the same guys going through the same tit-for-tat.

...And you're one of them...

(no hard feelings )

 

[MrMoMo]

For others reading this thread that didn't know, Mobi-arc sells the Powergate, an alternative dual batt manager

Hmm. so he is a salesman. Not an engineer. Yup that makes sense.

Oh, and AFAIK, the BlueSea ACR is NOT a mechanical solenoid. NO moving parts.

If you are going to bash someone elses product, you might want to do some market research on what it is first. Then go and talk to your design engineers to make sure your argument is valid and you have the facts to back it up. If you aint got facts to prove it, I aint gonna waste my time listening/arguing. It also makes you much less credible when you don't even know how your competitions products work.

I have continuously read this thread since I posted in it, however, I decided to wait untill the bull**** stopped flying around to step back in.

ANY simple mechanical device, that has been proven over a LONG period of time will win my vote over a "newfangled" electronic device if I can make it work. The simplest way to paralell your batteries is a switch. Manual. Period. Engage it under NO LOAD. Disengage it under NO LOAD. It will last forever. (I would personally choose a Blue Sea switch here, only because I use them all the time and have not had problems.

FWIW, I do not work for BlueSea, or Surepower. I build boats, with multiple battery banks and multiple 300A alternators. I build them for Fire and Police departments, as well as the US Navy (yes,they used Surepower isolators) So far we have not had ANY surepower failures that have been reported to us. All of our boats seem to manage to charge the batteries, even with the voltage loss over a diode isolator. IIRC, a PB acid battery nominal voltage is 12.6V. if your alternator is putting out 14.2 you can loose up to 1.6V before you stop being effective. You don't loose that much over a diode type isolator.

FWIW, I have never experianced the "amazement" of watching a Powergate operate. Perhaps my whole view of life would change if I witnessed this amazing device working, and blowing away the competition. How ever does anything in the world work without it I wonder.

Go ahead, bash away. I am just giving you my $0.02, and it's Canadian, so you can equate the exchange rate into that.

 

[mobi-arc]

"BlueSea ACR is NOT a mechanical solenoid. NO moving parts"

Wow...it takes a lot to anger Canadians...nicest people on the planet. Canada Bell, likely your telephone service provider, is currently removing all their Surepower and Vanner devices and installing POWER-GATE units at enormous expense....1,500 E-Series service vans....I won't elaborate as to why, let's just say it involves fire trucks and insurance companies. They found us, we didn't look for them. Did they get bored? Do they like spending money when they don't have to? No....they sought a solution to a chronic problem and although P-GATE is pricey, the product walks the walk. And if the Blue Sea device, which by the way is a fine product, isn't a mechanical solenoid, please enlighten me. And jeesh, I'm not bashing anything and I haven't thrown out any information that a first year engineering student can't figure out on his own. With respect to your experience in military and marine circles, I'm sure you use the best products available when the application needed to be fullfilled. "You can loose up to 1.6 volts".....for the love of god, why would you find that acceptable or desirable? That's nearly 20% of your alternator's output getting pissed away as heat. Conservation of energy. Last time I checked, the idea was to not throw away power as heat in the first place, not generate heat and strap 8 pounds of aluminum to it, mount it vertically, and blow air over it.

Can we finally end this fun? How do we transition back to basic dual battery information? My brain is starting to tire. If I agree that a solenoid can be switched at 2,000 amps for 10,000 cycles and work as well as it did on the first cycle, can we stop? How about that new Slee bumper?

Hmm. so he is a salesman. Not an engineer. Yup that makes sense.

Oh, and AFAIK, the BlueSea ACR is NOT a mechanical solenoid. NO moving parts.

If you are going to bash someone elses product, you might want to do some market research on what it is first. Then go and talk to your design engineers to make sure your argument is valid and you have the facts to back it up. If you aint got facts to prove it, I aint gonna waste my time listening/arguing. It also makes you much less credible when you don't even know how your competitions products work.

I have continuously read this thread since I posted in it, however, I decided to wait untill the bull**** stopped flying around to step back in.

ANY simple mechanical device, that has been proven over a LONG period of time will win my vote over a "newfangled" electronic device if I can make it work. The simplest way to paralell your batteries is a switch. Manual. Period. Engage it under NO LOAD. Disengage it under NO LOAD. It will last forever. (I would personally choose a Blue Sea switch here, only because I use them all the time and have not had problems.

FWIW, I do not work for BlueSea, or Surepower. I build boats, with multiple battery banks and multiple 300A alternators. I build them for Fire and Police departments, as well as the US Navy (yes,they used Surepower isolators) So far we have not had ANY surepower failures that have been reported to us. All of our boats seem to manage to charge the batteries, even with the voltage loss over a diode isolator. IIRC, a PB acid battery nominal voltage is 12.6V. if your alternator is putting out 14.2 you can loose up to 1.6V before you stop being effective. You don't loose that much over a diode type isolator.

FWIW, I have never experianced the "amazement" of watching a Powergate operate. Perhaps my whole view of life would change if I witnessed this amazing device working, and blowing away the competition. How ever does anything in the world work without it I wonder.

Go ahead, bash away. I am just giving you my $0.02, and it's Canadian, so you can equate the exchange rate into that.

 

[Darwood]

All I have to say is mobi-arc, you come across as a tard and because of you I am less inclined to consider purchasing anything from the company you represent even if it is better. You are doing more harm for the company than good.

 

[MrMoMo]

"BlueSea ACR is NOT a mechanical solenoid. NO moving parts"

It just occoured to me that you may be referring to the L series ACR where I am referring to the CL series ACR..... Yes, the L series is a solenoid, AFAIK, the CL is not.

 

[Hants]

Ok, mobi-arc, I'll give a go at this...

I'm looking to design a dual battery system that is:

1) automatic
2) runs a winch on BOTH batteries when the alternator is charging
3) isolates the batteries when the alternator is NOT charging
4) has NO chance of misconfigured switches (cook the alternator, no charge to secondary battery, etc.)

Based on my book knowledge, I anticipate 200A typically across the combiner (whatever it is), with a peak load of 400A (for, say <5 minutes).

I think that there is at least a theoretical chance that 1000+A *could* cross the combiner when the secondary battery is fully discharged, and the primary is fully charged (assuming AGM batteries on both sides, as I don't think any other technology could train/charge at those rates). Practically, I suspect this condition wouldn't ever materialize... but I have only book knowledge and thought experiments

Can your isolator/combiner be used in this way? Will it automatically isolate (or cycle back and forth) when the winch kicks in and the draw lowers the voltage?

The only solutions I've found that can do this in the real world are 1) manual switches (doesn't accomplish my goals), and 2) high-amperage solenoids (which work in real life, despite your predictions).

Ball is in your court.

 

[mobi-arc]

Interesting. I've simply provided straight-forward information about different technologies that I'm quite familiar with to fellow Land Cruiser owners. If people don't like the opinions, get over it......it's just an opinion. With respect to you being disinclined to buy a MOBI-ARC or POWER-GATE, I'm sorry to hear that. No apologies for being zealous about our products or excited about our technology. It's not right for everybody and, quite frankly, we're not targeting the off-road market. We continue to decline offers for writeups in off-road magazines. I simply provide information to fellow Land Cruiser guys because they appreciate well engineered products and like having choices. That's all we offer is an alternative. Those who are schooled in the art realize it's tremendous....those who are not think it's pretty.

All I have to say is mobi-arc, you come across as a tard and because of you I am less inclined to consider purchasing anything from the company you represent even if it is better. You are doing more harm for the company than good.

 

[mobi-arc]

Yes. SR200-C or SR400-C, depending on how much current you want to flow. Expect a voltage from of 20 to 40 milli-volts (20 to 40 thousanths of a volts) at full continuous current which is better than any isolator on the planet. You'll have more resistance in a 2-foot piece of #4 cable. Feel free to call me. On another note, I'm done monitoring this thread.

Ok, mobi-arc, I'll give a go at this...

I'm looking to design a dual battery system that is:

1) automatic
2) runs a winch on BOTH batteries when the alternator is charging
3) isolates the batteries when the alternator is NOT charging
4) has NO chance of misconfigured switches (cook the alternator, no charge to secondary battery, etc.)

Based on my book knowledge, I anticipate 200A typically across the combiner (whatever it is), with a peak load of 400A (for, say <5 minutes).

I think that there is at least a theoretical chance that 1000+A *could* cross the combiner when the secondary battery is fully discharged, and the primary is fully charged (assuming AGM batteries on both sides, as I don't think any other technology could train/charge at those rates). Practically, I suspect this condition wouldn't ever materialize... but I have only book knowledge and thought experiments

Can your isolator/combiner be used in this way? Will it automatically isolate (or cycle back and forth) when the winch kicks in and the draw lowers the voltage?

The only solutions I've found that can do this in the real world are 1) manual switches (doesn't accomplish my goals), and 2) high-amperage solenoids (which work in real life, despite your predictions).

Ball is in your court.

 

[Darwood]

Interesting. I've simply provided straight-forward information about different technologies that I'm quite familiar with to fellow Land Cruiser owners. If people don't like the opinions, get over it......it's just an opinion. With respect to you being disinclined to buy a MOBI-ARC or POWER-GATE, I'm sorry to hear that. No apologies for being zealous about our products or excited about our technology. It's not right for everybody and, quite frankly, we're not targeting the off-road market. We continue to decline offers for writeups in off-road magazines. I simply provide information to fellow Land Cruiser guys because they appreciate well engineered products and like having choices. That's all we offer is an alternative. Those who are schooled in the art realize it's tremendous....those who are not think it's pretty.

This is a fairly good response to my probably unjust harsh words. Thank you.

 

[dfmorse]

Hants;

Here are some details of my system that I have been testing for about 4 years. Keep in mind that the site is still under construction and some of the wiring diagrams require updating.

http://homepage.mac.com/dfmorse/BattProj3.2.0/index.html

...

 

[Hants]

Yes. SR200-C or SR400-C, depending on how much current you want to flow. Expect a voltage from of 20 to 40 milli-volts (20 to 40 thousanths of a volts) at full continuous current which is better than any isolator on the planet. You'll have more resistance in a 2-foot piece of #4 cable. Feel free to call me. On another note, I'm done monitoring this thread.

Are these new products? I wasn't aware that you had a 400A version?

I'll give you a call and discuss this further.

Here are some details of my system that I have been testing for about 4 years. Keep in mind that the site is still under construction and some of the wiring diagrams require updating.

Thanks for the updated link. I had the link to your v2 site.

 

[bulldog-yota]

Hants;

Here are some details of my system that I have been testing for about 4 years. Keep in mind that the site is still under construction and some of the wiring diagrams require updating.

http://homepage.mac.com/dfmorse/BattProj3.2.0/index.html

...

Nice!! I used the 925 as my second batt as it is a nice small package, but still carries quite a punch. My installation is fairly simple and doesn't require messing with the main battery and wiring. Have been working flawlessly for less than a year , but I don't foresee any issues in the long run. I will probably drop the OEM battery in the future when I get a winch and put in a Odessey 1700.

http://www.toyota120.com/html/4runner_dual_batteries.html

 

[dfmorse]

Thanks Bull;

I like that a lot! Much better than my site.

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