Driving down south from the States?

[joshoisasleep]

yeah but sandcruiser... you've got to admit it's still a shame. There's so many once beautiful beach surfer seaside hangouts, that are now rapidly turning into highrise and condo complexes. The property value goes through the roof in these places, so people who have lived there for generations can no longer afford to live there.
A town called Jaco (sp?) comes to mind. I ran into this ex-pat on a bus while killing time before my flight after shipping the cruiser away. He told me to go there because it was the most chill place... he'd been there for 10 years and when I got there I realized that his feeling of this place must have been leftover from when he first lived there. It was all new high-rises going up along the beach, and gringo owned bars. I checked into the 'old surfer hostel' (only cheap place left in town) for $10... there were no surfers there, just their old broke 80's style surfboards hanging from the ceiling. They'd sold the place a few years before to an old guy from Arkansas. The sad ghostly feeling of nostalgia was so strong I couldn't handle it, I left without staying the night I'd paid for and went to Quepos.

 

[joshoisasleep]

There is a distinction made between US GOVERNMENT policy and US CAPITALIST culture.

For the most part, there is envy for US capitalism as it relates to an individual's opportunity to achieve financially and resentment for the US foreign policy.

I think you're off on that one. People down here who have never heard of Iraq or any of the US's foreign policy issues are hurt by the capitalist culture that you say they want. I just heard someone say that there were no roads into the Amazon until Texaco came down and put them in. I also just read in the paper about 15 indigenous people shot in February of this year by forestry or oil workers. That kind of thing goes on down here.

People find jobs abroad because their country's economies have been torn to shreds by the capitalist culture you mention above... things along the lines of foreign banks giving massive loans to countries who can't afford them, on the condition that the money is spent on infrastructure to be built by US firms. Those people would prefer that 90% of their tax money didn't go to paying off interest for something their country was tricked into investing in in the 70's, and instead into boosting their economy so they could find a good job at home, with their families.

I don't think anybody cares about who the US is at war with down here. It's the capitalism that's caused their problems. The image of Che Guevara is everywhere, and not just on t-shirts... painted to people's trucks, on walls and stickers. I don't think people who display that are people who envy capitalism.

 

[joshoisasleep]

btw nice website alvaro! Need some help with your map?

 

[sandcruiser]

98% off topic

Yes! There are certainly areas that are inferior (in my opinion) to what they were before. Jaco is a great example. But it isn't fair to place the blame on US influences. Most of the huge buildings in Jaco are being built by consortiums that have significant (if not majority) shares held by Costa Ricans. *All* of the absurdly tall buildings in Jaco are included in the Costa Rican-authored and approved "plan regulador" (development plan).

This isn't a case of foreigners entering an impoverished area, displacing natives, and economically raping the land. It is a case of the Costa Rican government deciding that for the financial future of the country it is desirable to encourage coastal development in that zone, in order to attract tourists and foreign investors.

And those ivnestors aren't just Gringos. Taiwan was dumping buckets of coin into the country until about last year, when CR decided to jump into bed with China instead. I expect we'll be seeing a "friendship highway" soon that goes from somewhere to somewhere-owned-by-Chinese-investors.

You think that Bolivia isn't courting someone out there? Or VZ? Or any other country you care to name?

Personally, I think that Costa Rica is plucking the proverbial golden-egg-goose. But much more importantly- the leaders of Costa Rican government (the oldest democracy in Central America) are following a plan that they believe is in their best interest. I suspect that "their" refers to the politicians more than the people, just like most other governments. But it should be clear to all that the "progress" happening in places like Jaco is the result of local government trying to capture tourist/construction dollars. Not the result of fiscal pressure nor political pressure brought to bear by the US government. It is the same phenomenon that has passed through areas such as southern Spain, Maui, Los Cabos and Cancun (Mexico), or Miami Beach. Many people made a lot of money in those areas (or continue to make it). A relatively small number of people leave the area, grumbling (rightfully) about the sissies who took over the place.

I'd rather see development models like Santa Barbara, CA or The Hamptons or various other high-value/low-density areas. But until I'm elected uncontested decision maker supreme.... it might not happen.

One unhappy truth is that when pioneers (like you) strike out to discover the "unknown", they leave a trail of information and perceived security for others to follow. Isn't that precisely what this thread is all about? Making it easier for the relatively timid to follow in the footsteps of the more adventurous who have preceeded them?

After enough people find out about the next "cool spot", it usually morphs into something far less cool than it used to be, but far more accessible to the average person.

Look at Burning Man. It used to be the counter-culture. I just talked to someone the other day about a group who had their camp *catered* [shudder].

The list of examples is endless and to fret over "progress" of this type is the inevitable pain of having ventured out to "nobody goes there". So enjoy the new frontiers!! Live the adventure!!

But don't be upset when the sun goes down at the end of the day, or when the developers follow the tourists who follow the travelers who followed the explorers who followed the pathfinders...

yeah but sandcruiser... you've got to admit it's still a shame. There's so many once beautiful beach surfer seaside hangouts, that are now rapidly turning into highrise and condo complexes. The property value goes through the roof in these places, so people who have lived there for generations can no longer afford to live there.
A town called Jaco (sp?) comes to mind. I ran into this ex-pat on a bus while killing time before my flight after shipping the cruiser away. He told me to go there because it was the most chill place... he'd been there for 10 years and when I got there I realized that his feeling of this place must have been leftover from when he first lived there. It was all new high-rises going up along the beach, and gringo owned bars. I checked into the 'old surfer hostel' (only cheap place left in town) for $10... there were no surfers there, just their old broke 80's style surfboards hanging from the ceiling. They'd sold the place a few years before to an old guy from Arkansas. The sad ghostly feeling of nostalgia was so strong I couldn't handle it, I left without staying the night I'd paid for and went to Quepos.

 

[cruiser_guy]

The potholes are big in Costa Rican roads, the shoulders... small. Be cautious. Drive s-lo-w-l-y. It is neither legal nor advisable to drive over 90km/hr *anywhere* in Costa Rica. That's under 56mph. Most "highways" have posted limits of 60. That's kilometers, not miles, per hour. That's less then 40mph.

Are the speed limits actually followed? Here in Guatemala it's the same but drive 60 kph and you'll be run off the road! The only folks going slower are the cops and everyone passes them all the time.

 

[sandcruiser]

Most people drive faster than 60 in a 60 zone, for sure. I do.
But not usually all that much faster, usually less than 80.

But someone driving a heavily-loaded cruiser with a "I'm not from around here" look to it, may benefit a lot by staying closer to the posted speed limit. Cops here will pull a vehicle with foreign plates much more readily than one with local plates.

Are the speed limits actually followed? Here in Guatemala it's the same but drive 60 kph and you'll be run off the road! The only folks going slower are the cops and everyone passes them all the time.

 

[joshoisasleep]

Jaco is a great example. But it isn't fair to place the blame on US influences.

I didn't mean to.

Most of the huge buildings in Jaco are being built by consortiums that have significant (if not majority) shares held by Costa Ricans. *All* of the absurdly tall buildings in Jaco are included in the Costa Rican-authored and approved "plan regulador" (development plan).

The problem is the greedy people everywhere. They could have done a really beautiful job of developing Jaco, but what they've done (are doing) is really crap, like so many other places. The problem is people everywhere trying to make a quick buck, and not caring about the end result.

But it should be clear to all that the "progress" happening in places like Jaco is the result of local government trying to capture tourist/construction dollars. Not the result of fiscal pressure nor political pressure brought to bear by the US government.

Yeah you're right, totally different issues.

But don't be upset when the sun goes down at the end of the day, or when the developers follow the tourists who follow the travelers who followed the explorers who followed the pathfinders...

well put

 

[joshoisasleep]

a rant... tenchnically not ENTIRELY off topic...

Sorry, I know this is still not about trucks (and I'm the one who went on about that), but as others have mentioned, it IS about driving to Central or South America.

One unhappy truth is that when pioneers (like you) strike out to discover the "unknown", they leave a trail of information and perceived security for others to follow. Isn't that precisely what this thread is all about? Making it easier for the relatively timid to follow in the footsteps of the more adventurous who have preceeded them?

Has anyone read the note on their South America map about the cartographer who put it together? I'm not sure if there's another map made by someone else or not, but on two different South America maps I've had now there's been this interesting little writeup about the guy.
One of them went into detail about how the guy was so driven to map the continent properly for the first time because he wanted to help improve the quality of life for the people living there. He wanted his maps to enable access to areas, encourage tourism and positive foreign interest. I guess it's a double-edged thing really...

There's a lot of backpackers and travelers down here, and I think a lot of them miss out on what's 'real'. I'm not saying that just to make myself feel like more hardcore, I'll admit I'm the first to head for the comfort and safety of a beachside tourist town given the chance, and I often follow a guidebook. You see all these problems down here (crappy low wages, corruption, crappy laws about working conditions, indigenous women breastfeeding their babies while trying desperately to sell things on the highway for pennies), and you want to encourage everyone you know to come down and see it for themselves, so people in your country will know the score from more than just reading about it. But then you realize that they're already here, but they're flying from highlight to highlight (hey, I wouldn't go to the crappy little towns if I didn't get lost or just have to pass through them on my way). And in some places it even feels like it's just one big massive party (beachside surfer towns), and people think there's no difference between their country and this place except the bathrooms are crappy and the beer is cheap.

Seeing a little bit of the way things are down here has really brought things home for me. I mean, it's not that I didn't know what I was going to encounter, but it's just that something so huge... an entire continent (ok so just a little bit of it so far) that's still like the wild west, and with such a brutal class gap and so many other things... it's a big concept, and you need to see it properly to really get it.

So I guess what this rant is about is that yeah, the trail of information does so often just bring people in to party and build highrises. However, I really like the idea (like the cartographer) that that trail of information can also bring positive change. That if more people in North America really had a deep personal concept, and not just knowledge of the situation of so many people down here, that we'd see some real progress (it's 2008, and your bananas are still picked by a guy who literally slaves all day and can barely feed his family). If just the majority of North Americans realized the difference they could make by researching brands and treatment of workers, and refusing to buy from companies who are bad. The bottom line, everyone should drive a landcruiser across the Americas (and the rest of the world).

 

[Bogo]

I'd rather see development models like Santa Barbara, CA or The Hamptons or various other high-value/low-density areas.

I have a very raw nerve when it comes to development. I have friends who's families settled Long Island. They had to sell the family farm because of inheritance taxes. Despite the wish to continue farming the land, the inheritance taxes were to much. There was no way to pay them with what could be earned from farming the land. So ended an over 300 year old farming legacy. I don't know what you think, but to me that is a very great loss. There aren't that many places in the USA where you could even have that old of a legacy. What was it replaced by, more McMansions and yet another ****ing beach resort. What a waste. It isn't just Long Island that is seeing losses like this. Farmland near any city is being plowed under and turned into developments and shopping centers at an alarming rate. Often because the inheritance taxes have gotten so high the next generation can't afford to farm it any more.

 

[joshoisasleep]

Uhhh, I just want to say that I posted the above this morning and I think I was still a little drunk from last night. I'm not one to delete a post, so I'll just leave it at that

 

[Alvaro]

btw nice website alvaro! Need some help with your map?

Well it's actually not mine but a friend's.

 

[sandcruiser]

Bogo: I'm 100% with you on your opposition to inheritance taxes, especially w/regards to income producing assets.... how can you tax something at a rate higher than it's inherent earnings potential? Ludicrous.

Alvaro: thanks for sharing that site. Really interesting!

Josh: My take on what you were typing is that... Sure, nearly everyone who travels will tuck into a fun/easy situation when the opportunity arises. You don't travel *just* to get stuck in muddy muck somewhere. But getting from haven to haven by Landcruiser can really open your eyes to how the rest of the world is living, and help you appreciate what you've got.

I do wish that everyone would spend some time traveling overland. Even if it is just to a few states away, but the further the better and I suspect that the world would be a little bit less grouchy if we all saw a little more of it.

 

[joshoisasleep]

My take on what you were typing is that... Sure, nearly everyone who travels will tuck into a fun/easy situation when the opportunity arises. You don't travel *just* to get stuck in muddy muck somewhere. But getting from haven to haven by Landcruiser can really open your eyes to how the rest of the world is living, and help you appreciate what you've got.

Thanks for the translation! Also, I think it helps you appreciate how much you're "part of the problem".

...it is easy to feel safe somewhere even if it's a dangerous place, if you're one of the lucky ones who don't have a problem...

Back to safety issues... The night before last a guy got stabbed to death in front of my hostel. I saw the guys arguing outside as my girlfriend and I walked back from dinner. A few minutes later we heard a commotion, and then everybody's standing around the guy in front of the door. It was raining hard, so the street was literally flowing with blood. People called but no ambulance came, but eventually some cops pulled up and tossed his body in the back of their pickup and drove off. This is a neighborhood that I would probably describe as 'safe' if my friends were asking for travel advice.
In this case I think it was gang related, but it could easily have been a mugging. What I saw before it happened was two guys holding two others up against a wall (or 3 holding one? We walked right past them, but I make a point not to look lest it gets me involved). Others told me that the guy who got taken out pulled out the knife, and the other guy stabbed him with it... just like you always hear.

 

[1tontoy]

The reality is that it takes money to travel.

Those of us who can afford a landcruiser AND drive it on extended adventures can't forget how lucky we are to be in a society with such free opportunity...something that 70% of people on earth don't have because of a variety of issues out of their control.

If one has some extra cash and time, take advantage of the opportunity . Get out and spend it on a trip. When we are about to die, memories will be of the places on earth we've seen and the peoples we've shared time with along the way...not the $$$ or the porsche in the driveway...

 

[cruiser_guy]

Those of us who can afford a landcruiser AND drive it on extended adventures can't forget how lucky we are to be in a society with such free opportunity...something that 70% of people on earth don't have because of a variety of issues out of their control.

It's closer to 94% of the rest of the world who doesn't have that opportunity! We really are a priveliged few.

 

[sandcruiser]

Taking this thread on yet another tangent:

An interesting statistic I read a little while back is that 20% of Americans, when asked, thought that they were in the top 10% of personal net worth. 30% thought that they were in the bottom 10%. That would be within the USA. Can't find the citation right now, if I do find it, I'll post.

The point being: While a number of people are either over-confident or under-estimate the enormous wealth that is the top 10, an even larger number under-estimate the extreme poverty that represents the bottom 10. And the bottom 10% in the states is an awful lot wealthier (in terms of strict dollars and cents) than the poor folks I've seen touring Central America.