Driveshaft woes

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ID, You mention christo or robbie noticing an out of phase front driveshaft. I thought the front driveshaft is suppose to be out of phase and the rear is in phase. Correct me if I'm wrong cuz as you know I'm tracking down a vibration problem myself and my driveshafts are front out and rear in phase.

Thnx, Vince
 
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IdahoDoug said:
There you go again. For a college boy, you're not exhibiting much of a learning curve. Replace away, I guess...

DougM

Show me a guy who graduated college with good grades and I'll show you a guy with very little common sense. Graduating college means you have good retention/recall skills, doesn't mean you understand the matterial and actually applying that matterial in a real world situation is another matter entirely.

Not that all grads fall in this category, but in my experience of working with 50 or more design engineers on different projects from different countries there were only 3 that come to mind that could really hold their own in front of a broken machine that they were part of designing. The rest would argue for hours over some minute point concerning some technical aspect that really didn't matter all. But this of course lead back to who could better recall the info taught in class and not so much the problem at hand.

Sorry for the rant, but you're in front of the truck and nobody here is. If your comfortable replacing the driveshafts then go for it. If nothing else you'll learn something tangable from the practical experience. Whether reading a book or reading a thread on a web site, there's not alot of practical experience gained here, just other peoples views and opinions to draw on.
 
IdahoDoug said:
NYK sez:

"I'll end up replacing both front and rear driveshafts soon."


There you go again. For a college boy, you're not exhibiting much of a learning curve. Replace away, I guess...

DougM


I was told by a shop that I would need to. Not that I will be replacing the rear any time soon but. Yes I know, I keep reverting back to what I was told by the shop not shutting up and listening to you guys. Hmm no wonder school is so hard.
 
Rick,

Obviously the common sense issue is for a different discussion, but I managed to make good grades both in college and graduate school and what little common sense I had remains intact. I'm sure there are others who also achieved it, though it seems rare in your circle. It's been my experience in life that common sense is now uncommon in nearly every field of endeavor - be it collegiate, flipping burgers, or politics. Ironically, I seem to find it in undeveloped countries rather than those considered "advanced". A connundrum of life....

DougM
 
I do know a couple engineers who graduated with honors and can engineer circles around me. They simply love machines. I know a few mechanical geniuses who never went to college. Unfortunately, I know far more who don't love what they do, I had to help one put the chain back on his bike when we were engineering seniors.

When I was young I noticed the universal joint in my Dad's socket set didn't produce a smooth rotation when it worked through an angle. It went fast-slow-fast-slow, changing every 90 degrees. Years later our formula car trashed it's axles in college, and I wrote my senior paper on how pairs of universal joints out of phase work to produce a smooth rotation. We had put them in phase.

The fast-slow-fast rotation caused by a u-joint at an angle can be neutralized by another u-joint 90 out of phase working at the same angle. 90 out of phase u-joints have the yokes on the driveshaft oriented the same, as on our rear driveshafts. The u-joints are mirror images of each other. The rear axle moves up and down keeping the input shaft parallel to the ground, and parallel to the shaft coming out of the t-case, so the two u-joints always work through the same angle.

Our front driveshafts have very little angle, especially at the front. The axle pivots from near the rear u-joint as it goes up and down, so the front u-joint doesn't change angle much. It looks to me like they have a mostly vertical angle at the rear, and slight horizontal (sideways) angle at the front. Since they work through angles 90-degrees off from each other, they really are out of phase even though the u-joints are oriented the same. This should be smooth on a stock truck going down the highway, the two angles are about the same. At axle extension the two angles aren't the same, but you'd go slow in those situations and not notice any vibration. Unless you have a lift.
 
One more time. Is the front driveshaft suppose to be out of phase? Rear driveshaft in phase?

Thnx, Vince
 
97cruiser said:
One more time. Is the front driveshaft suppose to be out of phase? Rear driveshaft in phase?

Thnx, Vince


Vince...to answer you question directly. The front is 90 degrees out of phase, and the rear is in phase. Look at the pic below and look at your drivelines. See how the Yokes are out of phase? NOW POST BACK AND TELL US WHAT YOU FIND. That's the easiest part and yet seems to be the hardest to get.
shafts.webp
 
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NYK....


STILL WAITING ON FOR AN ANSWER....

I poste this in the last thread of yours as well...but since taking the advice of those on this board doesn't seem to be your strong point, I'll say it again. To test the theory given to you by LCS...simply drop a DS, lock the CDL and see if the vibration goes away. Whis you have them off, grab the Dust Cover and see if you can rotate it any. If this really is the cause of the CLUNK when you engage your truck, it should be as loose as Junks momma. More than likely your clunk comes from play in the rear and or front pinion. Amazingly enough...you can also check this when your DS is off. Just grab the flange at the diff and see how much play you have. You can also check for play at the transfer case flanges, but would best be done with both shafts out....so do it between front and rear tests.

How long do you let your truck warm up before you slap it in gear? What RPM are you pulling? Personally I've noticed that if I'm in a hurry and slap it in Drive over 1.2k RPM I get a clunk. If I let it warm up to where it drops below 1k, there is no clunk. Give it a shot and .....


POST BACK UP!!!!!!!!!
 
Thnx Safado, I was pretty confident that the front shaft is suppose to be out of phase but after reading this from ID: For instance, Christo and Robbie (Slee Offroad) specialize in the 80 series and would have noted the incorrectly installed out of phase front shaft in about, oh 9 seconds after getting it on the rack to diagnose your front vibration. We here on the forum caught it also. LCS did not. Kinda got me guessing.
 
Whups, sorry to confuse Vince. Should have been "incorrectly installed but should have been out of phase front shaft.."

This is a well known "feature" on the 80 by 80 tech folks, but is extremely unusual in the world of drive shafts.

DougM
 
97cruiser said:
One more time. Is the front driveshaft suppose to be out of phase? Rear driveshaft in phase?

Each u-joint is a pair of yokes, 90 degrees from each other. The input yoke is toward the engine, output yoke toward the axle. Each end of the driveshaft has a u-joint. If the input (engine side) yoke of each u-joint is oriented the same, they're in phase. That's what our front driveshafts look like, and that's unusual.

There are three shaft segments to a driveshaft: input, transfer, output. When the input and output shafts are parallel, the angles of each joint are the same. Out of phase u-joints cancel each other's vibration. That's how our rear driveshaft is set up. The u-joints have their input (engine side) yokes 90-degrees off from each other.

The front driveshaft input and output shafts are angled in different planes from each other. The u-joints would have to be rotated to match those angles to cancel each other out. That would be easy on 3-D CAD, which I'm sure Mr. Toyota had access to when building our trucks. Think very carefully before messing with the orientation of the front u-joints.
 
Yeah...even I was getting confused there for awhile, especially with Scott's explination. I think he's got the right concepet, just hard to keep the front and rear DS straight in your head. FSM shows it clearly.

scottm said:
90 out of phase u-joints have the yokes on the driveshaft oriented the same, as on our rear driveshafts.
 
holy crap. you gotta be kidden me, all this time my 96 80 has been shakin a leg, and you guys are tellin me it is the front shaft, I looked under there, my front shaft is in phaze, not like the pic on this thread, I guess that could be part of it huh?

Guess I will be fixen that this week. As well as a busted sway bar mount up front, just happened, get the welder out again!

Sethro
 
sledge916 said:
holy crap. you gotta be kidden me, all this time my 96 80 has been shakin a leg, and you guys are tellin me it is the front shaft, I looked under there, my front shaft is in phaze, not like the pic on this thread, I guess that could be part of it huh?

Same here. When I bought the truck two years ago I had a toyota dealer give it an inspection -I told them I wanted them to run the same inspection they are required to perform before they sell a "certified" used toyota. They gave it a very good rating. When I asked about the vibration I felt at speed, they said it was the "off-road tires" (It came with BFG AT KO). They completely missed the front DS being in-phase. I'd like to try to fix this myself, How difficult is it? I have the manual but haven't done more than change brake pads before. If I can find time, I'd like to do more work on the cruiser myself -especially since there isn't a good shop around here period, let alone one that knows the particulars. Can't even trust the stealership anymore.
 
Dropping and disassembling a driveshaft isn't typical PM (unless you're my brother). Unless you bought it with a ton of miles or it was wheeled hard and broken, I doubt it was messed with by the PO. The front driveshaft should look like it's in phase, opposite the setup on the rear driveshaft. Take another look at the drawing and under your truck.
 
>> How difficult is it? <<

An impact or a big breaker will come in handy.
-B-
 
Scott,

The front shaft should have the two ears on each end at 90 degrees from each other, correct?

The rear shaft should have the two ears in line with each other.

Just clarifying since I think your use of "in phase" is correct from an engineering standpoint, but visually as most will be using for their input, my two statements may be easiest for us civilians.

DougM
 
scottm said:
Dropping and disassembling a driveshaft isn't typical PM (unless you're my brother). Unless you bought it with a ton of miles or it was wheeled hard and broken, I doubt it was messed with by the PO. The front driveshaft should look like it's in phase, opposite the setup on the rear driveshaft. Take another look at the drawing and under your truck.

My truck has 146,000 miles. A previous owner installed the center diff lock switch so it "might" have been wheeled but no way of knowing for sure. My manual shows the front shaft as being out-of-phase : the yokes are oriented 90 deg. to each other- ie: if the yoke at the diff is up and down, the yoke at the transfer will be side to side. The rear is shown as in-phase by the manual. I don't know why you say the front should "look" like it is in-phase.
 
Beowulf said:
An impact or a big breaker will come in handy.
-B-

No air tools here.......yet ;-)
 

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