Yeah I kind of thought about a new thread, but this one had related info and sounded like it had run its course. Either way. /shrug
Discuss: FJ62 5VZ-FE Conversion
- Thread starter SAR_Squid79
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I have a 2002 taco and with a load of stuff in the bed the 3.4 does suffer some. It has great power above 2500 rpms. Anything below that though is another story. The 3FE has a ton of rotating mass which is great for low end slow stuff. For me, I'd never consider a 3.4 Toyota. I'd do a 5.7 Chevy 1st. Nothing original, but sure is a good setup.
I wish i could have drive the FJ62 Georg did the 4-speed swap in for an impression. I loved my wife's FJ62 but is was a bit pokey.
- Thread starter
- #23
wow, you're fully afflicted! maybe even moreso than myself. i think we should move this to a different thread as to not hijack this one even more than we already have.
As far as my ponderings - this thread has run its course, and you guys are welcome to continue the discussion. It makes for great reading. Jaw on!
Thank you guys for your inputs. I'm pretty certain that as soon as I get back from Afghanistan, I am going to do the H55 conversion in my FJ62. I am sold on the fact that the 3.4L would probably be a bad choice, and the juice would most definitely not be worth the squeeze.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
i did'nt get a chance to reply sooner but that's exactly what i was going to recommend for several reasons:
1) cheapest option
doing the h55f swap will be way cheaper than any engine transplant, nevermind having to change the trans, t-case and axles at the same time.
2) good investment
compared tothe other options, this would gain you the most ( percentage wise 0 resale value. even if you decided to go with a different setup in the future, you8 could re-sell the h55f for most of what you paid for it. they are sought after units
3) room for improvement
if you do go with this conversion and you still want more power, you can simply replace the engine with a gm V8 of many flavors. you won't have to go out and spend more money on another trans and t-case combo. what you have would hold up just fine to a V8.
4) pretty much a "bolt in"
this would be the simplest conversion because most of the parts will be oem toyota and will be easy to source and to replace should the need arise. also, there are no 'custom" parts required for this swap.
we'll just leave it at that.
i did get to drive the 62 i converted quite a bit. the manual trans made a noticeable difference. i wish i could have driven the truck after the spring over was completed since that was the true test of how well it drove and how much power it really had to climb hills.
when i got to drive it, there were 31: tires on it so that might have been slightly mis-leading. although, i have driven a few 62s with 31s with the auto trans. heck, i owned one for a while and they definetly were'nt as peppy as the one with the 4spd.
hth
georg @ valley hybrids
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
Apologies for taking this thread down a different turn, and I know we'll never get to something definitive (but it is fun to jaw).
Georg- you are among a pretty select few group of people I can think of that have probably some of the most varied experience with different drivetrain/model combos. Would you be willing to lay them out and give your impressions? I know that I am not alone in considering some drivetrain changes.. here is an example of what I'm looking for and I'll use my experiences as a start. I think it's important to add qualifiers as much as possible to shade the impression. Things like miles on engine (or rebuild), engine health, gearing, tires, weight carried, etc.. it all comes into play. I really wanted to put the weight of my FJ62 (6200lbs now with the winch, fully loaded, all the bumper/armor and roof top tent) into that 13B-T/A440 to see what kind of difference it may have made.
my history:
1974 FJ40 hardtop, stock 2bbl 1F/4spd, mid-high 100k miles, stock running gear, 30" tiers. My first cruiser in '92ish. I knew nothing and it felt like an old truck but it didn't matter because the top came off and I was in college.
1964 FJ40 hardtop, 1F 1bbl/3spd, higher 100k miles, I think it was a "rebuild the top 40k ago" truck. Came with 31" Yoko Super Diggers with probably 40% tread. More FJ40 bliss, but it was a slow, sputtery truck. I went way into the boonies of Oregon alone many times and it always brought me back. Upgraded to 33x9.5 BFG MTs and an 8274 winch, not much difference, harder push to get over passes. 2wd low was fun.
1981 BJ42 hardtop. 3B w/Fairey OD (stuck in OD iirc), otherwise stock. Came with 29" tires, 250k kilometers on the clock. Wow, 450 mile range on a tank. Great gearing combo (stock 4.11 in BJ42s) with the tires and OD. Not fast but capable up a pass. Fairey blew up, so yanked it, rebuilt the t-case, added 33x12.5 MTs. Noticeably more of a dog and passes were more work than the original form. May have had less weight due to pretty terminal body rust.
1982 BJ42 hardtop. All stock, had to be in the 200k+ kilometers. 29" Hankook snow/all terrains. This was an internet deal gone bad and I have it sitting as parts for some distant future drivetrain swap into the '64. Ran fantastic, drove it home to Oregon from Maine in the middle of February. Similar to the '81 in driveability- capable but not outstanding. 19+ mpg. Was loaded with spare parts/tools/extra fluids/duct tape/bailing wire/JB weld. Kind of scary as I found the rear frame rotted. Most the truck is bondo, so not sure if that is heavier or lighter than sheet metal.
80s BJ75 pickup. 3B/H55. 4.11s on 31" BFG ATs. Healthy motor. Heavy mining bed and about 15 leafs on the rear packs. Impressive to see 1 ton of gutted home material loaded without noticeable sag. Empty, it drove capably. Nothing I remember outstanding, felt closer to the BJ42s above. Low mile engine, but they were mine miles.
Mid 80s BJ70 hardtop. 3B/H55. 4.11s and 31s I think. Not sure if I've driven it. Seemed to be close to the BJ75 (same owner). Not sure if engine was as tight as the BJ75.
Nov/Dec 03, '89 FJ-62 stock on 285s. 175k miles, solid compression, untouched drivetrain. 04 saw it on 31" BFG ATs, 33x9.5 (from '64 FJ40) BFG MTs, 33x12.5 BFG MTs ('81 BJ42s), finally 33x10.5 BFG ATs. It started off respectable on 285/31s, but just got worse after lots of miles (240k ish now), and lots more weight- 125lb front bullbar, winch, rear full protection bumper, sliders. 6200 lbs I think was last weigh-in. Complete dog. If it weren't for the 3FE able to rev easily to 4k rpm on occasion, it would be unbearable.
Moab '05, and I get to drive Luke Porter's HJ61 to Poison Spider Mesa, up it a ways and back. 12H-T, H55, very heavy German-outfitted expedition truck with 4 passengers along. 33x16 MTs. Bigger fuel tank, cargo area storage system loaded, roof rack ARB/Kaymar, sliders, winch, body armor. Good tunes. This felt great on the highway with that load. Didn't feel pushed at all, responsive throttle. OME HD with 2 or 3 extra OME long overload leafs at each corner. I think a gear or 2 in the H55 was broken. The expedition tank gave him I think a 1200 mile range on fillup. Maiden Voyage.
'66 FJ454. 45 lpb, bobbed w/heavy steel flat bed. 454 big block, built/balanced, SM465/NP205. Oh my this is different. More power than this old of a truck should have. May have contributed to broken NP205 and rear FF shafts starting to twist a bit.Have a reman 850cfm q-jet and new matching edelbrock intake waiting for the day it lives again, behind the other projects. Maybe 4.11s on 37s, but really with all the power not sure gearing matters anymore. Pretty confident that engine will continue to roar long after everything else around it shreds apart. It will get shrunk to 35 ATs and get the rear frame re-extened to stock and a nice bed back on, and become a mild-mannered street/snow truck. Nothing to compare to- ok maybe PortFJ62's Merc powered FJ62. He breaks his truck too.
'79 FJ40 soft top. Healthy (smogged) 2F, SM420, 4spd case. 35 MTRs/4.56s. Has some bumper/winch weight. Cruises nicely, can pull a pass ok (in the ballpark of BJ42s feel).
Rowland's 1HZ(with HD-T turbo)FJ60, H55f, 33x10.5s(?). All I can say is he is a bastard, complaining about only able to get up to 85mph up a good mtn pass because ambient temp is 95F. Anyways, I have been around this truck enough times and at length to say this is a pretty awesome combo. It is probably lighter than my FJ62 but it is still pretty loaded with gear in every hidden nook and cranny you may not know exists in a 60. Even a spare jerry can underneath in a stealth holder. My only regret is not driving it. Will hopefully get to that this summer.
FJ62 13B-T/A440. Surprisingly good combo. Would not have believed it. Plenty of spare power. Makes me want to get the one BJ42 back to life and other one's parts transplanted with turbos added. Would still like to load it with 800 or so lbs of sand bags and see how it does.
Other thoughts.. 2FE/H55. I was really going to go this route, but after looking at the costs of a nice rebuild and new transmission, I think there are other more viable alternatives out there for what I have and want.
So I am left to wonder the difference in characteristics of a well-used (250k+ km) 12H-T/H55 (or 1HZ) conversion against a 10- or 1000-mile '02-'04 5.3L vortec / 4L60E conversion on a truck that is +/- 800-1200lbs lighter than the trucks the V8 originally was run in. I explore with more than wheel the FJ62, and care about crossing distances and get over mountain passes than the need for speed or insanely extensive ranges. The diesel has greater range, especially poking along dirt/gravel roads at changing altitudes. It is also heavier, and louder, and simpler. The v8 is lighter, modern (obd-II), oddly simple after reworked wiring harness, and got 15-21mpg in a heavier platform. And has more power. If either gets over a pass easily, which has more power doesn't really matter. Range difference isn't a huge deal as I can work out ways to store more fuel if needed. The idea of smoking Kevin's HZT60 in a race across the Alvord desert has a certain appeal to it, I'll admit.
alright, where do i start?! i guess i'll break it down into a few different replies so this won't get as long winded. good thing i came home early today after having screwed up my lower back so i have time to type this...........
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
conversions - purpose build!!!
in my line of work, i get a lot of questions about conversions. repeat and possible future customers commonly ask me to quote them a conversion doing X engine, trans and t-case, suspension work, yada yada yada.
so the first thing i ask them is very simple:
"what do you plan on doing with the vehicle?"
then i get a little more details with my questions to figure out how much wheeling and how much street usage the vehicle is going to see. next i find out where the cruiser is going to be wheeled and if the person had wheeled there before.
then i explain to them that you should always take your time to decide, do as much homework as possible and come up with a reasonable combination of parts and components to achieve the goals you've set for the vehicle.
once you figure that out, you have two basic options:
1) buy something that's 90% of what you want and do the finishing touches. you're never gonna find something that's 100% of what you're looking for in a cruiser. so finding something as close to perfect as possible can save you a lot of time and money, even though the initial invetsment might be a lot higher.
that's right, i don't tell people to bring me their cruiser and we'll build it up or to buy a nice cruiser for $xxxx and then chop the heck out of it.
2) if you plan on building something more radical, then start with the bare necessities. the closer to a "rolling body" with a clean titel, the better. there's no reason to spend thousands of dollars on a cruiser only to tear it apart and replace most of the major mechanical components. buying a rolling chassis/body saves money and time because you won't have as much time invested in tearing it apart.
bottom line, figure out what you want/need and build accordingly!
in my line of work, i get a lot of questions about conversions. repeat and possible future customers commonly ask me to quote them a conversion doing X engine, trans and t-case, suspension work, yada yada yada.
so the first thing i ask them is very simple:
"what do you plan on doing with the vehicle?"
then i get a little more details with my questions to figure out how much wheeling and how much street usage the vehicle is going to see. next i find out where the cruiser is going to be wheeled and if the person had wheeled there before.
then i explain to them that you should always take your time to decide, do as much homework as possible and come up with a reasonable combination of parts and components to achieve the goals you've set for the vehicle.
once you figure that out, you have two basic options:
1) buy something that's 90% of what you want and do the finishing touches. you're never gonna find something that's 100% of what you're looking for in a cruiser. so finding something as close to perfect as possible can save you a lot of time and money, even though the initial invetsment might be a lot higher.
that's right, i don't tell people to bring me their cruiser and we'll build it up or to buy a nice cruiser for $xxxx and then chop the heck out of it.
2) if you plan on building something more radical, then start with the bare necessities. the closer to a "rolling body" with a clean titel, the better. there's no reason to spend thousands of dollars on a cruiser only to tear it apart and replace most of the major mechanical components. buying a rolling chassis/body saves money and time because you won't have as much time invested in tearing it apart.
bottom line, figure out what you want/need and build accordingly!
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
set a budget!
most of us have to be realistic about how much we're willing and able to spend on a cruiser-build. so figure out realistically how much of a budget you're working with and plan accordingly.
i usually start by making a list of modifications i'd like to perform to make the truck more reliable and more capable. then i try to put them in some sort of order as to the priority of each modification. after that's its fairly simple to figure out what you can do given the budget you're working with.
we've all seen the posts about " i just got a small block chevy for $300 so i'm gonna put it in my cruiser"........... do not kid yourself. the engine is a fraction of the cost of such a conversion. if you choose to harbor illusions of doing a V8 swap for $1k, then you're setting yourself up for failure and chances are you'll end up with a rig that's torn apart, a lot of money invested in parts and components yet being far from done. i think this is the mail reason why people give up on their projects; poor financial planning.
most of us have to be realistic about how much we're willing and able to spend on a cruiser-build. so figure out realistically how much of a budget you're working with and plan accordingly.
i usually start by making a list of modifications i'd like to perform to make the truck more reliable and more capable. then i try to put them in some sort of order as to the priority of each modification. after that's its fairly simple to figure out what you can do given the budget you're working with.
we've all seen the posts about " i just got a small block chevy for $300 so i'm gonna put it in my cruiser"........... do not kid yourself. the engine is a fraction of the cost of such a conversion. if you choose to harbor illusions of doing a V8 swap for $1k, then you're setting yourself up for failure and chances are you'll end up with a rig that's torn apart, a lot of money invested in parts and components yet being far from done. i think this is the mail reason why people give up on their projects; poor financial planning.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
aility - diy or not?!
here's another critical factor:
do you plan on doing your own work or will you have somebody do it for you?
some of us have the mechanical experience, ability, tooling and time to do our won conversions and work needing to be done on our vehicles. some of us do not, for various reasons.
i tend to do most of the work on my vehicles for multiple reasons. i stated doing so by necessity. when i first got into wheeling, i was on a pretty tight budget due to my young age, going to college and having two part time jobs that only allowed me to spend $X on hobbies. i enjoyed wheeling a lot and the only way for me to be able to go out there and have good time was for me to do all my own work. so i invested money in tools as i needed them and fixed my own junk. being youg, dumb and full or #$%@, i broke my rig a lot so i had to do a lot of wrenching. it was the only way for me to get back on the trail.
after a few years i stated enjoying learning more about vehicles and different componets which ultimately lead me to do my won build-ups. having a better paying job, a place to wrench and a good selection of tools definetly helped. so it's been a steady progression which is still ongoing. i'm sure a lot of you guys are in the same boat.
another reason why i like doing my own work is because i want it to "be done right". unless i know the person working on my vehicle, i'm usually not very comfortble with them even touching it. i guess i'm picky that way.
there are certain things i am not familiar enough with or i don't have the proper tooling for. when that problem arises, i have the work done by somebody who's qualified to do it and somebody i trust. bar none.
what i'm trying to convey here is that you need to figure out if you're able to do some of the work on your rig yourself or not.
you need to have the mechanical ability to do the job properly
you need to have the proper tooling to do the job
you need to have the time to do the job
you need to have the knowledge to do the job
if you do not qualify for any of the four items above, then maybe you should find somebody who's qualified to do the work. if you are going to have the work done somehwere else, then you need to once again do your homework and take your time. no need to rush into anything. the last item along this topic i'd like to stres is that i would highly recommend taking your cruiser to a cruiser specific shop if at all possible to have this type of work done. sure there are a lot of good mechanics and great shops out there, but having somebody who's familiar with cruisers perform the work at hand will pay dividends in the future.
there are more than a few board members who have taken their cruisers to mechanics shops to have conversions done only to end up on the back burner, collecting dust, having inferrior work done or just plain being taken...............
bottom line, figure out if you can do the work yourself and if you're up for it. if not, then find somebody qualified and experienced to do the work for you.
here's another critical factor:
do you plan on doing your own work or will you have somebody do it for you?
some of us have the mechanical experience, ability, tooling and time to do our won conversions and work needing to be done on our vehicles. some of us do not, for various reasons.
i tend to do most of the work on my vehicles for multiple reasons. i stated doing so by necessity. when i first got into wheeling, i was on a pretty tight budget due to my young age, going to college and having two part time jobs that only allowed me to spend $X on hobbies. i enjoyed wheeling a lot and the only way for me to be able to go out there and have good time was for me to do all my own work. so i invested money in tools as i needed them and fixed my own junk. being youg, dumb and full or #$%@, i broke my rig a lot so i had to do a lot of wrenching. it was the only way for me to get back on the trail.
after a few years i stated enjoying learning more about vehicles and different componets which ultimately lead me to do my won build-ups. having a better paying job, a place to wrench and a good selection of tools definetly helped. so it's been a steady progression which is still ongoing. i'm sure a lot of you guys are in the same boat.
another reason why i like doing my own work is because i want it to "be done right". unless i know the person working on my vehicle, i'm usually not very comfortble with them even touching it. i guess i'm picky that way.
there are certain things i am not familiar enough with or i don't have the proper tooling for. when that problem arises, i have the work done by somebody who's qualified to do it and somebody i trust. bar none.
what i'm trying to convey here is that you need to figure out if you're able to do some of the work on your rig yourself or not.
you need to have the mechanical ability to do the job properly
you need to have the proper tooling to do the job
you need to have the time to do the job
you need to have the knowledge to do the job
if you do not qualify for any of the four items above, then maybe you should find somebody who's qualified to do the work. if you are going to have the work done somehwere else, then you need to once again do your homework and take your time. no need to rush into anything. the last item along this topic i'd like to stres is that i would highly recommend taking your cruiser to a cruiser specific shop if at all possible to have this type of work done. sure there are a lot of good mechanics and great shops out there, but having somebody who's familiar with cruisers perform the work at hand will pay dividends in the future.
there are more than a few board members who have taken their cruisers to mechanics shops to have conversions done only to end up on the back burner, collecting dust, having inferrior work done or just plain being taken...............
bottom line, figure out if you can do the work yourself and if you're up for it. if not, then find somebody qualified and experienced to do the work for you.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
engines
where do i start?!
let's try to stick to this particular rig; an fj62.
afaik, you have 3 basic choices;
1) stock
2) V8
3) diesel
1) stock 3fe. this leaves you with very few options as far as which transmission you can use; either the a440f automatic ( very limited on transfer case choices ) or the h41/h42/h55f are the only direct bolt ons. of course you can run an sm420 or 465 behind them as well.....
overall, not a bad engine and they usually hold up well. they also seem to be a little rev-happier than the F and 2F as well as putting out a little more power. reliable fuel injection, very useable power curve. no mods needed to run this.....
2) V8. i'm a big fan of gm V8s, particularly the TBIs and vortecs. yes, TBIs still do have their place. they're simple, reliable and inexpensive as far as fuel injected engines go. on the downside, they don't put out a ton of power. buth they do run great at any altitude and any angle. also, lots of transmission choices be it manuals or automatics......
vortecs are even better. even though they're slightly more expensive as far as initial investment goes, the harnesses and other required accs will cost more than the TBI counterparts.
in a 6x series rig, i would prefer a 5.7 or 6.0 over the 5.3 due to the lower torque curve and power onset. the 5.3s are great little engines but they like to rev higher and don;t quite have the torque of the other two. i know there are a few guys running 5.3s in their wagons and they're happy with them. if you plan on doing any towing at all or carrying heavy loads, the lower torque curve of the 5.7 will shine whereas the 5.3 will struggle some. the last year for the 5.7 was 2002 so dfinding a low milage unit is getting more and more difficult. on top fot that, the market is flooded with the 5.3s. the 6.0s are great engines and produce a ton of power; from 305 to 345 HP and even more torque, but their physical size means there are limitations as to minimum lift required to run one,......so if you're gonna go thru the work and expense of putting a vortec in your rig, get the one that will do the job best.
i finished an fj60 project a little while ago. we removed the 2F, h55f, split case combo in favor of a 2000 vortec 5.7, NV4500 and orion HD. the engine runs extremely smooth and has great useable power thruout the rpm corve. noticeable power increase, that's for sure. fuel economy should also be better than the stock 2F.
personally, i like automatics a lot but behind this engine you could run either, an auto or a manual trans.
3) diesels. two major choices here; domestic or imports.
the only domestic engines i like are the cummins. great power output, extremely dependable and easy to find parts and info. to keep things simple, i'm gonna lump the isuzu diesels in with the cummins engines. they're fairly similar when it comes to physical size and performance.
imho, the inline 6 syl cummins is just too large and heavy to be practical. i know that there are a handful of cruisers out there with 6ATs and 6BTs in them abnd the owners are very happy with them. sometimes enough is enough and too much is too much.
a couple of years ago i really wanted to install a cummins 4BT into my first troopie. then i had the chance to visit proffit's in colorado and drive a 60 with the 4bt and standard trans. great power, noticeable increase, higher cruising speed and better fuel economy. but what i did'nt like was the physical size and the extremely ROUGH idle. the noise was'nt a selling point either for me.......but damn, the performance was great.
a couple of months after that i got the chance to work on a rig built at radd cruisers up in BC canada. it was a 45 long bed pickup with a 1HZ, h55 and split case that rob had built for a customer. it needed a few finishing touches and special parts so i got to finsih the job before the truck was shipped to it's owner on the east coast. i had the truck for a couple of months and got to drive it quite a bit. it was during that time that i developed my appreciation for toyota diesel engines. the truck had plenty of power, would cruise almost effortlessly at 70-75mph and go quite a bit faster than that if pushed to do so. fuel economy was excellent, idle was much smoother and quiter than any other 4 or 6 syl diesel engine i had experienced.
this truck changed my mind from wanting to go with a cummins to looking into toyota diesel engines a lot more.
i now own a troopie with a tired H, another troopie with a great running 2H and i'm working on a customer's troopie with a safari guard turbo'd 2H. my 2H does fine; i get what i expect from it which isn't much although it's noticeably better than the H. it's pushing a brick with a roof rack down the highway. i can cruise at 60 mph ( in an effort to keep the rpms at a reasonable level ) and climb most hills in 3rd and 4th gear. however, i live at sea level and don;t get up above 6k feet much, so i can't really comment on higher altitude driving and climbing. the fuel economy is good considering it's a 6cyl; i have gotten as much as 24mpg on a tank.
if you were to do a conversion on an fj6x, then i don't think that an H or 2H would be worth the effort; you'd end up with similar performance at a substancial cost only to gain fuel economy.
so if you're gonna swap a diesel into the fj6x, then go for a later model toyota diesel with a turbo. better fuel economy, better power, smooth idel and not too noisy.
where do i start?!
let's try to stick to this particular rig; an fj62.
afaik, you have 3 basic choices;
1) stock
2) V8
3) diesel
1) stock 3fe. this leaves you with very few options as far as which transmission you can use; either the a440f automatic ( very limited on transfer case choices ) or the h41/h42/h55f are the only direct bolt ons. of course you can run an sm420 or 465 behind them as well.....
overall, not a bad engine and they usually hold up well. they also seem to be a little rev-happier than the F and 2F as well as putting out a little more power. reliable fuel injection, very useable power curve. no mods needed to run this.....
2) V8. i'm a big fan of gm V8s, particularly the TBIs and vortecs. yes, TBIs still do have their place. they're simple, reliable and inexpensive as far as fuel injected engines go. on the downside, they don't put out a ton of power. buth they do run great at any altitude and any angle. also, lots of transmission choices be it manuals or automatics......
vortecs are even better. even though they're slightly more expensive as far as initial investment goes, the harnesses and other required accs will cost more than the TBI counterparts.
in a 6x series rig, i would prefer a 5.7 or 6.0 over the 5.3 due to the lower torque curve and power onset. the 5.3s are great little engines but they like to rev higher and don;t quite have the torque of the other two. i know there are a few guys running 5.3s in their wagons and they're happy with them. if you plan on doing any towing at all or carrying heavy loads, the lower torque curve of the 5.7 will shine whereas the 5.3 will struggle some. the last year for the 5.7 was 2002 so dfinding a low milage unit is getting more and more difficult. on top fot that, the market is flooded with the 5.3s. the 6.0s are great engines and produce a ton of power; from 305 to 345 HP and even more torque, but their physical size means there are limitations as to minimum lift required to run one,......so if you're gonna go thru the work and expense of putting a vortec in your rig, get the one that will do the job best.
i finished an fj60 project a little while ago. we removed the 2F, h55f, split case combo in favor of a 2000 vortec 5.7, NV4500 and orion HD. the engine runs extremely smooth and has great useable power thruout the rpm corve. noticeable power increase, that's for sure. fuel economy should also be better than the stock 2F.
personally, i like automatics a lot but behind this engine you could run either, an auto or a manual trans.
3) diesels. two major choices here; domestic or imports.
the only domestic engines i like are the cummins. great power output, extremely dependable and easy to find parts and info. to keep things simple, i'm gonna lump the isuzu diesels in with the cummins engines. they're fairly similar when it comes to physical size and performance.
imho, the inline 6 syl cummins is just too large and heavy to be practical. i know that there are a handful of cruisers out there with 6ATs and 6BTs in them abnd the owners are very happy with them. sometimes enough is enough and too much is too much.
a couple of years ago i really wanted to install a cummins 4BT into my first troopie. then i had the chance to visit proffit's in colorado and drive a 60 with the 4bt and standard trans. great power, noticeable increase, higher cruising speed and better fuel economy. but what i did'nt like was the physical size and the extremely ROUGH idle. the noise was'nt a selling point either for me.......but damn, the performance was great.
a couple of months after that i got the chance to work on a rig built at radd cruisers up in BC canada. it was a 45 long bed pickup with a 1HZ, h55 and split case that rob had built for a customer. it needed a few finishing touches and special parts so i got to finsih the job before the truck was shipped to it's owner on the east coast. i had the truck for a couple of months and got to drive it quite a bit. it was during that time that i developed my appreciation for toyota diesel engines. the truck had plenty of power, would cruise almost effortlessly at 70-75mph and go quite a bit faster than that if pushed to do so. fuel economy was excellent, idle was much smoother and quiter than any other 4 or 6 syl diesel engine i had experienced.
this truck changed my mind from wanting to go with a cummins to looking into toyota diesel engines a lot more.
i now own a troopie with a tired H, another troopie with a great running 2H and i'm working on a customer's troopie with a safari guard turbo'd 2H. my 2H does fine; i get what i expect from it which isn't much although it's noticeably better than the H. it's pushing a brick with a roof rack down the highway. i can cruise at 60 mph ( in an effort to keep the rpms at a reasonable level ) and climb most hills in 3rd and 4th gear. however, i live at sea level and don;t get up above 6k feet much, so i can't really comment on higher altitude driving and climbing. the fuel economy is good considering it's a 6cyl; i have gotten as much as 24mpg on a tank.
if you were to do a conversion on an fj6x, then i don't think that an H or 2H would be worth the effort; you'd end up with similar performance at a substancial cost only to gain fuel economy.
so if you're gonna swap a diesel into the fj6x, then go for a later model toyota diesel with a turbo. better fuel economy, better power, smooth idel and not too noisy.
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ntsqd
technerd
The topic has veered considerably since my last opportunity to post, but I'd like to back up for a moment and address the centered output - offset rear diff thing one last time, and then hang it on the fence post.
To me not having the centered diff with a centered output means that there is a parasitic loss. The quantity is up for discussion (in another thread), but I don't think anyone could state that it's non-existent and be able to support that. Centering the diff, all by itself, certainly won't pay off unless a huge number of miles are accumulated - even if I do all of the work myself. I see the issue as bigger than that. I'm not attacking that one instance and expecting to suddenly start getting 35 mpg. That just isn't going to happen. What can happen is by systematically going through the entire vehicle and looking for correctable parasitic losses I can create a gain in mpg. The "every little bit helps" approach.
The psychology of it is that I rarely hear anyone complain about their elective spending of ~$2000 on re-geared axles, but I do hear folks regularly complain about their poor mileage. The net difference in money spent over the life of the vehicle might be the same, but it's only the poor mpg's that you hear about.
My goal is 20 mpg with an injected V8 when driven sanely at 65 mph and to be able to tow my chase Baja to the desert races or the TrailBlazer camp trailer to where ever. (I don't expect 20 when towing, that wouldn't be very realistic.) I'm expecting to fall short of that, but it is my goal to try to get there. I plan to evaluate those things that are affected by the engine swap in terms of their doing what I need as well as what I want. An NP241 t/c offers less parasitic loss than does the Split-Case (& no adapter cost) and is more than strong enough for my planned use (not to mention the 2.7:1 low range ratio), but it drives centering the diff to take full advantage of it. In that light centering the diff looks like a good idea, but not one that I think will be easy to do.
- - - - - - -
I'll second Orangefj45's comments about unfinished projects and how they come to be "yard art." If you don't have a budget worked out you at least need to have some money every week that can be used to keep the project moving forward. It may not be 4 digits worth every month, but there is a real need to keep the momentum going. Stalled projects loose their luster and become yard art. BT, DT, could write a book on it.
To me not having the centered diff with a centered output means that there is a parasitic loss. The quantity is up for discussion (in another thread), but I don't think anyone could state that it's non-existent and be able to support that. Centering the diff, all by itself, certainly won't pay off unless a huge number of miles are accumulated - even if I do all of the work myself. I see the issue as bigger than that. I'm not attacking that one instance and expecting to suddenly start getting 35 mpg. That just isn't going to happen. What can happen is by systematically going through the entire vehicle and looking for correctable parasitic losses I can create a gain in mpg. The "every little bit helps" approach.
The psychology of it is that I rarely hear anyone complain about their elective spending of ~$2000 on re-geared axles, but I do hear folks regularly complain about their poor mileage. The net difference in money spent over the life of the vehicle might be the same, but it's only the poor mpg's that you hear about.
My goal is 20 mpg with an injected V8 when driven sanely at 65 mph and to be able to tow my chase Baja to the desert races or the TrailBlazer camp trailer to where ever. (I don't expect 20 when towing, that wouldn't be very realistic.) I'm expecting to fall short of that, but it is my goal to try to get there. I plan to evaluate those things that are affected by the engine swap in terms of their doing what I need as well as what I want. An NP241 t/c offers less parasitic loss than does the Split-Case (& no adapter cost) and is more than strong enough for my planned use (not to mention the 2.7:1 low range ratio), but it drives centering the diff to take full advantage of it. In that light centering the diff looks like a good idea, but not one that I think will be easy to do.
- - - - - - -
I'll second Orangefj45's comments about unfinished projects and how they come to be "yard art." If you don't have a budget worked out you at least need to have some money every week that can be used to keep the project moving forward. It may not be 4 digits worth every month, but there is a real need to keep the momentum going. Stalled projects loose their luster and become yard art. BT, DT, could write a book on it.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
transmissions
autos vs manuals
as mentioned many times, i like automatics. a lot. i even convinced woody to put a th700 in his buggy and he digs it. a lot.
that having been said, i'm not a fan of automatics behind diesel engines. they do great behind V8s but the diesels just put out too much torque and with the smaller useable RPM window, i like having the control and strength of the manual transmissions. i would highly recommend going with the h55f behind a toyota turbo diesel. the OD is definetly needed to be able to cruise at 70mph.
if you're going to go with the V8, then it's ultimatley up to you if you want to go with the auto or manual. they both have their place and work well. if you do a lot of city driving, then the auto might be a better way to go. if you plan on going on long road trips or expeditions then the manuals might be a good option also.
autos vs manuals
as mentioned many times, i like automatics. a lot. i even convinced woody to put a th700 in his buggy and he digs it. a lot.
that having been said, i'm not a fan of automatics behind diesel engines. they do great behind V8s but the diesels just put out too much torque and with the smaller useable RPM window, i like having the control and strength of the manual transmissions. i would highly recommend going with the h55f behind a toyota turbo diesel. the OD is definetly needed to be able to cruise at 70mph.
if you're going to go with the V8, then it's ultimatley up to you if you want to go with the auto or manual. they both have their place and work well. if you do a lot of city driving, then the auto might be a better way to go. if you plan on going on long road trips or expeditions then the manuals might be a good option also.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
i have to agree with that point; i believe in it as well.
reminds me of drag racing Rc cars many years ago. we would chuck up just about any part in the mill we could and remove a little material here and there. i even went so far as to drill holes thru the center of the larger bolts along with other weight-saving tricks. it all might have only added up to a savings of half an ounce, but if you figured in the power to weight ratio, it made a difference.
i know, i know, Rc car nerds. LOL. i was even a certified RC car nerd; held the world record for fastest electric RC car for 7 years or so; first car over 100mph.
i'm probably gonna regret posting that.........
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
cracks me up when people complain about getting poor milage in their cruisers. it's a cruiser for gawd's sake, not an economycar. and this is not www.getultimatefueleconomyandsavetheplanetforourchildren dot org
don't get me wrong, i'm all about keeping this place in good shape and making sure our kids get to enjoy it, but the words "fuel economy" and "land cruiser" are'nt in the same zip code.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
20 mpg is a lofty goal but something you might be able to achieve with a late model injected engine and manual trans. the 241 will definetly help as well, since it's not a "live" transfer case like a split case. ( not the entire gear set turns at all times like a split case, therefore creating less drag ........). the 241 is also highly under-rated. they're actually pretty damn strong and only need a simple c-clip eliminator upgrade to be trouble free and very reliable. they usually hold up as good as a split case, if not better. they're also very easy to find and parts are cheap. simple to build as well. i have rebuilt a bunch of them and they definetly take less time than the toyota cases.
the only other upgrade i would recommend would be a slip youke eliminator. this will shorten the t-case, eliminate the c-clip issue all together and allow you to run a slip-style driveline instead of the pesky skip yoke.
and to take it to an extreme; shorter t-case = longer drive shaft = less u-joint angle = less parasitic loss = sorry, i could'nt resist. :whoops:
on the other hand, centered rear output of the 241 means the driveshaft exits the t-case at least 8 inches higher than the offset output on the split case which in turn will increase driveline angle which in turn.........
ntsqd
technerd
I've done 15.6 in a '91 1/2t 4WD Suburban (TBI/700/241) running 75-80 with 3.73's and 285's. My hope is to find most of that 4.4 mpg in gearing the engine to be in that same sweet spot at 65 and by pushing a smaller brick thru the air.
SYE is definitely on the list, plan calls for all Toyota drive shafts (even if not stock lengths), which requires modified t/c output flanges.
Contrary to my stated goal, it will be a 700R4. Towing with a manual trans ranks down there with Gonorrhea in my book. (Watch, someone will post "Hey, they're not that bad to tow with!" and they'll be missing the point.)
8" over a 46" span is 10* increase relative to the ground, but I only get 6"-6.25" measuring in the dark, so call it an increase in drive shaft angle of 7.7*; which is ~3.85* per U-J. Wonder how low I can set that powertrain in there? Clocking a 241 is no big deal.....
Engineers, sheesh!
SYE is definitely on the list, plan calls for all Toyota drive shafts (even if not stock lengths), which requires modified t/c output flanges.
Contrary to my stated goal, it will be a 700R4. Towing with a manual trans ranks down there with Gonorrhea in my book. (Watch, someone will post "Hey, they're not that bad to tow with!" and they'll be missing the point.)
8" over a 46" span is 10* increase relative to the ground, but I only get 6"-6.25" measuring in the dark, so call it an increase in drive shaft angle of 7.7*; which is ~3.85* per U-J. Wonder how low I can set that powertrain in there? Clocking a 241 is no big deal.....
Engineers, sheesh!
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orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
Clocking a 241 is no big deal.....
Engineers, sheesh!
clocking will only affect the front output, the rear output is at the centerline of the crnk, trans and transfer case mainshafts so the rear output will rotate but stay in the same location relative to the ground.
fwiw, my tow rig is a 2007 dodge megacab 4x4 diesel ............ and it's got a 6spd trans. towing with a diesel/automatic is a great way to end up at a transmission shop or back at the dealer for some trans repair.
sure, it's a lot less "work" for the driver to tow with an auto but they just don't hold up.
ntsqd
technerd
That's clocking exactly, but if I install the engine lower than normal to reduce U-J operating angle then clocking the t/c results in not loosing ground clearance at the front output. I used to work in race car fabrication, this sort of thing is nothing new.
I've had an auto fail while towing. The failure was due to overheating and was my fault. There is no way in hell that I'll tow with a manual by choice. Not with any engine that I'd consider swapping into my 60. My choice is not for everyone, but there simply is no budge in me on that count.
I'm out, I've more than hijacked enough.
I've had an auto fail while towing. The failure was due to overheating and was my fault. There is no way in hell that I'll tow with a manual by choice. Not with any engine that I'd consider swapping into my 60. My choice is not for everyone, but there simply is no budge in me on that count.
I'm out, I've more than hijacked enough.
Thanks for the feedback, orangeman. The part about the characteristics of the various size vortecs is very interesting, and it fits the "truth" model- magnitudes harder to find 6.0L.
Pretty much agree with the generalizations of autos and manuals. In the past I would have said manuals give more control and until I got the A440 FJ-62 I've never spent much time with an auto. That is honestly a sweet transmission. Very good control, has a nice variety of gear characteristics (2nd has a completely different feel than 1st or 3rd)- Toyota did a great job. Wheeling with autos is also much more enjoyable because of the control. You get more options for vehicle placement. Just for fun I've done a lot of testing my abilities on trails (McGrew and Moab) by sticking to 2wd, and knowing how my 2F and 3B 40 series trucks would work, I don't think I could have done it near as smooth without the A440.
Most of the general info people have put into this thread I also agree with, and many of the precepts orangefj45 layed out I am also in agreement. Having done a bunch (been about a year now) of consideration of those factors really helped me save and plan for doing something I'll be happy with for my use.
FWIW I have a F250/7.3/6 speed, and it has worked well for me for a towing setup. Would not enjoy it as a DD. Towed a full 56 ft car hauler with '03-ish dodge dually/auto and that worked well, but felt a bit more nervous doing it.
Pretty much agree with the generalizations of autos and manuals. In the past I would have said manuals give more control and until I got the A440 FJ-62 I've never spent much time with an auto. That is honestly a sweet transmission. Very good control, has a nice variety of gear characteristics (2nd has a completely different feel than 1st or 3rd)- Toyota did a great job. Wheeling with autos is also much more enjoyable because of the control. You get more options for vehicle placement. Just for fun I've done a lot of testing my abilities on trails (McGrew and Moab) by sticking to 2wd, and knowing how my 2F and 3B 40 series trucks would work, I don't think I could have done it near as smooth without the A440.
Most of the general info people have put into this thread I also agree with, and many of the precepts orangefj45 layed out I am also in agreement. Having done a bunch (been about a year now) of consideration of those factors really helped me save and plan for doing something I'll be happy with for my use.
FWIW I have a F250/7.3/6 speed, and it has worked well for me for a towing setup. Would not enjoy it as a DD. Towed a full 56 ft car hauler with '03-ish dodge dually/auto and that worked well, but felt a bit more nervous doing it.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
don't bow out now, i think there's some good general conversion tech to be had so let's keep it going.
lowering the engine works in theroy, but sometimes can create oil pan and exhaust clearance siiues, along with steering shaft issues. since you've been around race cars and fabrication work, i'm sure you're fully aware of these issues, but some of the guys reading this might not be.
you're also correct about autos failing due to heat. HEAT is the #1 killer for autos. so if anybody plans on towing with an auto, then do yourself a big favor and install a good transmission cooler. and to make things even easier on your auto, keep it out of OD when towing.
last but not least ( and then i'll get off the "towing horse" ), it's never a good idea to tow something that is heavier than the tow vehicle itself. also, the shorter the wheel base of the tow-vehicle, the less weight you outta tow with it. twoing with a fairly leightweight short wheel base vehicle is a recipe for disaster.
if you're gonna tow some jet skies, dirt bikes, a small utility trailer and so on with your auto, then by all means. if you're going to be towing a lot of heavy stuff, then step up to the plate and either run a big standard trans or a 4L80e ( for the gm transplants ).........
i do like your idea of running a gm engine, trans and t-case and have subscribed to it for a long time. when ever possible, i'd rather run as many oem components as possible; for many reasons:
1) cost
2) parts availability
3) ease of install
i think that the gm fuel injected small block, th700 style auto and np241 t-case combo is a great candidate for a conversion on a 45, 55, 60, 62 or 80 series rig. they don't work in the 40s due to their physical length, even with the SYE kits.
fwiw, i run a 1994 tbi 350, 1990 th700 and 1987 38mm split case in my 40 ( well, whenever i finally finish that rig anyways ). if i had more driveline length in the rear, i'd run the 241 anyday.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
the 6.0s are actually starting to be a little more common. we're installing one in anfj55 right now. the owner bought the entire engine with exhaust, harness and computer for $1750 which i though was a great seal, considering that it's only got 20k miles on it.
i know the 5.3s can be had for $800-1000 and up. the 5.7s are a little harder to find and a little more expensive.
the last 5.7 we bought for a conversion we paid $2400 for. however, that was by purchasing an entire running and driving truck with a bad transmission. the engine had been replaced by the factory less than 4500 miles prior to the trans blowing up. we removed everything we needed from the vehicle, sold the bed and a few other parts and scrapped the carcass. i think when it was all said and done, we ended up having $1800 into the engine and related parts. of course we had to put some time into it, but imho, it was well worth it. i'd rather remove all the required components myself than having billy-bob at the wrecking yard get busy with the side-cutters and torch. besides, by doing it myself i knew for a fact that all the required components would be present.
what i'm trying to convey is that you really need to shop around and be patient. the "right deal" will come along.......
