Disappointed

[Tools R Us]

My understanding, interpretation is that rocky, sandy washes that are open for travel are exactly that, open, bank to bank. By their nature it impossible to designate route/line, the next flood will change it. The exceptions are wetlands, historic, vegetative, etc. areas.

 

[inkpot]

My understanding, interpretation is that rocky, sandy washes that are open for travel are exactly that, open, bank to bank. By their nature it impossible to designate route/line, the next flood will change it. The exceptions are wetlands, historic, vegetative, etc. areas.

Howdy! It is difficult, and confusing, to try to stay anywhere close to politically correct when you are out 4x4. The controlling agencies, FS, BLM, STATE, have assorted and various rules and definitions about OHV travel. The Greenies are well organized and well funded. They basically want to lock it all up and throw away the key. This is all very frustrating to those of us who have been wheeling with basically unlimited access for many, many years. It can be a tuff decision between driving on the bypass, or taking the more difficult challenge. Sometimes, there are way too many optional routes on the challenges. They have become just a "playground". That's just the kind of place that the Greenies love to point at and say "the OHVs are killing the world!" When an existing trail becomes blocked, it has to be repaired, rerouted, or reclassified as CLOSED, Who makes the call? Check out the thread about the live tree falling across the trail near Martinez Cabin/Mine. The greenies would close that forever, if they could. Even on a trail in bedrock, they claim that we encourage additional errosion, we polute by leaking fuel and lubricants, we drive over all living plants and animals, and we haul all of our garbage from home and leave it out in the boonies. Unfortunately, there will always be a few extreme situations when drivers think only of having fun today, instead of saving some for tomorrow. We have all been tempted, and I know I have been guilty of taking the fun route more than once. Once, I had to chop down a live 60 ft pine tree to extricate my rig from a really bad situation. I didn't feel good about it, but I didn't feel like walking home, and I learned not to get into that kind of mess again!! OK, rant mode off.

Hey, Tools, whatever happened to our "rebuild the dam" project? John

 

[BMAN]

The actual trail is to the right of this little ledge.....but there's absolutely no damage to any vegetation or anything else by going up that ledge.

'cept maybe your ego when Stacy drove that line better than you could.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

I was actually asking to see if perhaps you saw the "waterfall" obstacle on Martinez while you were there.

Here's a pic:

Respectfully,
Sean

I've seen it first hand...

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Yellow Belly Ledge.

 

[Sean K.]

'cept maybe your ego when Stacy drove that line better than you could.

\
EBOD fawker. ;p

Sean

 

[MaddBaggins]

Sean, I don't know when you last spoke with Brian (goodtimes) but I have this thread also going on another site . It's less of a 4x4 site and more of an expedition site. I was looking for differing points of view on my thoughts. Anyway Brian is a frequent user of that site and it seems his attitude leans a bit more toward NO SIGN=NO ROAD. I have loads of respect for him and his ethics so he is someone I take cue from.
I am relatively new to the 4x4 world, and my opinions and practices are still forming and evolving.

Respect
Alvin

 

[Sean K.]

Sean, I don't know when you last spoke with Brian (goodtimes) but I have this thread also going on another site . It's less of a 4x4 site and more of an expedition site. I was looking for differing points of view on my thoughts. Anyway Brian is a frequent user of that site and it seems his attitude leans a bit more toward NO SIGN=NO ROAD. I have loads of respect for him and his ethics so he is someone I take cue from.
I am relatively new to the 4x4 world, and my opinions and practices are still forming and evolving.

Respect
Alvin

Well, I certainly respect Brian.....but in this instance, the current policy doesn't support is view (unless the policy has recently changed to "closed unless posted open"). You also have to remember that Brian only moved to AZ within the last few years (maybe 3?) and he was from the People's Republic of Kalifornia before so the rules he's used to from there, may not be applicable here.

As another poster said, if it's a sandy/rocky wash....it's open to travel bank to bank as long as you aren't mowing down vegetation or bothering wildlife.

I know Brian comes to this site.....maybe you could put a bug in his ear to drop by this thread??

Sean

 

[RHINO]

aww man, i'm having trouble re-sizing my buddy taking his suburban up yellow belly, oh well, its not an impressive angle with all that wheelbase, but the pick shows him bumper to bumper trying to fit in there

 

[Sean K.]

One thing I hope we all realize.....we need to unite. There's a steady influx of an "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to regular 4 wheelers and the more extreme guys. This mindset will only serve to divide us and ultimately lead to our demise with regards to being able to enjoy our sport.

While I'm building a vehicle capable of more extreme trails, I am ALWAYS willing to wheel with anyone (provided they can do the particular trail in question without damage to their vehicle or the trail). I hope you will all keep an open mind about other wheelers too. Some of them are good, some are bad....but stereotypes are not helpful to our cause.

It's similar to brand loyalty and certain groups upping their noses at other vehicle makes. When I see an H2, I try not to think, what an expensive, gas guzzling mall cruiser. I think: that could be a potential wheeling rig, a new friend and an ally in keeping our trails open. I hope you will all do the same or at least give people the benefit of the doubt.

The best thing you can do for our sport is to take someone wheeling who hasn't really been before. Show them proper trail ettiquette and we will all benefit.

JMO,
Sean

 

[MaddBaggins]

One thing I hope we all realize.....we need to unite. There's a steady influx of an "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to regular 4 wheelers and the more extreme guys. This mindset will only serve to divide us and ultimately lead to our demise with regards to being able to enjoy our sport.

While I'm building a vehicle capable of more extreme trails, I am ALWAYS willing to wheel with anyone (provided they can do the particular trail in question without damage to their vehicle or the trail). I hope you will all keep an open mind about other wheelers too. Some of them are good, some are bad....but stereotypes are not helpful to our cause.

It's similar to brand loyalty and certain groups upping their noses at other vehicle makes. When I see an H2, I try not to think, what an expensive, gas guzzling mall cruiser. I think: that could be a potential wheeling rig, a new friend and an ally in keeping our trails open. I hope you will all do the same or at least give people the benefit of the doubt.

The best thing you can do for our sport is to take someone wheeling who hasn't really been before. Show them proper trail ettiquette and we will all benefit.

JMO,
Sean

Well thats the truth, well said.

 

[goodtimes]

i just kind of skimmed over this, as it parallels a thread on the same subject on a different board.

As Alvin stated way back in the beginning...the guy was off the trail. No question about it. Coronado National Forest is closed unless posted open (as per the NFS), and the appropriate signs are posted in the area. There are also maps posted at some of the trailheads, staging areas, and major trail junctions, showing the legal trails. When this guy left the road and proceeded across the open desert, he was off the trail. Ther are no legal roads or trails in this area, only places where others have left the trail before this guy. This was not a dry wash, this was not a bypass around anything. The area is moderately vegitated, and the area will not be restored by the next rainfall. In this instance, there was no reasonable person would mistake this area as open for travel given the obviously posted signs reading "vehicle traffic is restricted to trails marked by this [insert trail marker here] symbol"

Now, I understand the critical distinction between "open unless closed" and "closed unless open". I generally support the former...but as I spend more time in the back country, I find more and more wildcat trails, and start to wonder if this policy has major flaws. Without any markers, other than those indicating which trails are closed, how is anyone supposed to know if they are on a legal trail or not? Just because someone else has driven there does not mean I, or anyone else should. If this was the case....all anyone would have to do to open a new trail, is to drive it a couple of times so it becomes a obvious trail. How much more harm can be done by continued use? It won't take long before the back country is nothing but one big trail.

On the other hand, you have Seans (legitimate) arguement about the dry washes.

Really, if everyone played by the rules, the "open unless closed" policy would work great. Problem is, too many people don't play by the rules. So you get wildcat trails which see continued use because of the very policy that we love so much...and these wildcat trails are our biggest enemy (well, one of the top 3 anyway).

 

[Sean K.]

Well said and I agree. I didn't realize the area we were discussing was in NF. The rules are different than on BLM land and in the washes I normally travel.

I should probably also state I run washes. I do so for the challenge and scenery is generally secondary. I go out of state generally for scenery runs that go through NF.....with the exception of a run up in Payson...but again, that's in a wash, so a little different rules apply.

Goodtimes is 100% correct about wildcat trails....once someone starts a wildcat trail, there's no way one can tell for certain it's not legitimate. The problem we find ourselves in is the amount of restriction and closure that would immediately be caused by instituting a closed unless posted open policy. In effect, nearly EVERY trail you now run would be closed until appropriate signage could be made and installed. That could easily NEVER happen as funds for such an undertaking would be extremely scarce. That's why it's extremely important that we police ourselves. It may be extremely tempting to do an obstacle that's next to the trail, but if it's not in the wash.....you have no reason or legal footing to do it.

Sean

 

[MaddBaggins]

This is good stuff, I'm glad I started this thread. Being a relative newb to the offroad community(only really been into it for 2+ yrs), I need to hear the different views and the different "rules" between NF and BLM and STL.

 

[BMAN]

I thought all TUCSONITES were trail blazers. You mean to tell me that you, both live in Tucson ... AND, attempt to follow the rules?

Now I'M the one who's dissapointed.

 

[goodtimes]

I thought all TUCSONITES were trail blazers. You mean to tell me that you, both live in Tucson ... AND, attempt to follow the rules?

Now I'M the one who's dissapointed.

Sorry, I'll try harder next time.

or not.