Diesel Land Cruiser for 2010?

[zmw100]

the point wasn't a work truck versus LC, the point was that the cummins engine trumps every diesel option toyota has ever made.

I have no doubt that toyota can produce a svelt smooth and well powered diesel, but it's not going to be a cummins - someone above made the statement they'd want to go head to head with cummins - and that's not toyota's market - going head to head with the CRD jeeps and various diesel SUV's is toyota's market, not going head to head with heavy duty trucks... Buying a tundra to pull your 60k$ wake board boat is one thing, buying a Tundra to pull your goose necked 20k lb irrigation trailer just isn't going to happen.

pick the right tool for the right job... The nay sayers that said toyota couldn't ever produce a good V8 were just foolish, but let's not confuse the issue - toyota didn't do anything spectacular with their V8, they threw displacement at the issue just as Nissan did when they introduced the Titan, there is nothing spectacular or revolutionary about the 5.7L V8 - toyota will undoubtedly attempt to market a V8 twin turbo Diesel as in their foreign market which will likely produce 300ish hp and 450ish ft/lb and will be overwhelmingly complex to work on.... It'll be kick ass in a 1/2 ton tundra, and will give the moca-frappa-late-ccino crowd the cool factor of owning a diesel truck w/o the red-neck scape that goes along with owning an american diesel.

Again, please don't misunderstand me - I love my TLC, and would love it even more if it were a diesel, but it's not going to be a cummins... I'm a diesel fan and I'm a toyota fan, hands down the cummins is the best diesel engine in the world for a truck, I would wager the VW TDI's are probably the best passenger car diesel engines, and hands down the Land Cruiser is the most well built vehicle I have ever owned, give credit where credit is due is all I'm saying...

-Z

 

[pagemaster]

I wouldn't call the 5.7 v8 unspectacular or nothing specia. The Tundra has by far the best gas powertrain out of any 1/2 ton pickup. The Cummins diesel from the Ram is on par with the Duramax.

I have no doubt Toyota if they really wanted could make a diesel that was 6.5 litres and 350 hp/650tq if they really wanted to. As you said, Toyota just threw displacement at the 5.7 which they can easily do that with a diesel.

Toyota would likely use Isuzu to make them a diesel anyway. The Duramax is right exactly on par with the Cummins so I dont see the big deal other than having the name cummins.

Both Duramax and Cummins are equal.

 

[zmw100]

spoken like someone who doesn't have to use them every day....

from a spec sheet, sure, the duramax and cummins and even the powerstroke are "equal" - from longevity and proven in the industry the cummins is matched by no one. The duramax is an isuzu built engine and is quite good, far more reliable than any powerstroke built since the 7.3L... but it's certainly not a cummins in terms of reliability... Truthfully what sells the GM diesel is NOT the duramax though it's the allison transmission that you can mate with it... indestructible and a well mated.

what makes the 5.7 so great from toyo? because it produces high HP and TQ numbers? it's an unproven engine in many unproven platforms - whether or not it's great remains to be seen - sure it has good HP And torque, but that isnt the end all be all. For an engine less than 2 years old, having shown a propensity for camshaft failures - I would say toyota certainly did not live up to it's standard quality when it came to producing this engine for the US market, they were purely concerned with filling a niche and need in the states, and chose the cheapest place they could to manufacture the tundra (San Antonio, TX)

You're probably the same guy that is sure pushrod engines are useless because they are old technology. What makes the 5.7L the "best gas powertrain out of any 1/2 ton pickup" - is it power? torque? it certainly isn't reliability or longevity...

-Z


-Z

 

[roscoFJ73]

the point wasn't a work truck versus LC, the point was that the cummins engine trumps every diesel option toyota has ever made.

Toyota also have the Hino and Daihatsu range of diesels at their disposal. Maybe you havent seen them in the US but their 7,8,9 litre engines are quite impressive.
The Daihatsu diesels are more for ships and really big things but Hino have many diesels in the same class as your Cummins

 

[zmw100]

the Hino engines would be a true medium duty work engine, I can't knock that - and frankly I don't have enough knowledge about either of them to compare them to cummins, the Hino 6 cyl is a similar design to the cummins, Common rail, 6 cyl inline, loads of torque - but honestly from the spec's it seems pretty under powered... 8L of diesel 6cyl lovin and it only produces 220hp and 520ft/lb - I'm sure it could be tuned for a fair bit more though...

So far you're the only rational argument for a decent diesel offering in a toyota truck - the fact still remains though that they are looking using the 4.5L twin turbo...

I also don't think any of the daihatsu engines are an option as it appears 16L is the low end, lol perhaps a 4L 1 cylinder model?

-Z

 

[pagemaster]

but Hino have many diesels in the same class as your Cummins

From what I saw over a cummins website and hino is that both engine makers are on the same page. The only engine that really stands out at cummins is the Ram 6.7 but that is tuned for marketing purposes.

I have no doubt that Toyota can pump out a diesel that of equivilent size, power and reliablity as on other American diesel.
Toyota has been making diesels since the 50's and the current diesel in the Land Cruiser is impressive make 520 lb from a 4.5.

You're probably the same guy that is sure pushrod engines are useless because they are old technology.

The argument about DOHC vs Pushrod died back in the 90's.

I want a diesel LC just as much as the next guy, but it won't be a replacement for my work diesel truck that I routinely tow 20K lbs with

I still don't understand why you are not going to buy a diesel Land Cruiser because it can't replace you 20k work truck. This just does not make any sense.

 

[twstrchasr]

Z you made a very accurate comment earlier by saying "pick to right tool for the job." I for one would have no thoughts of comparing the towing capabilities of a possible diesel LC with any HD diesel PU here in America. Comparing the two just really isn't logical, and anyone who does is just ingnorant to the facts.

Atticus, you are very correct in saying that there is no incentive for "big oil" to change anything. Their record profits surely won't be fed into producing any new refineries..Speaking of which, when was the last new refinery built ?? 1973 ??!! Quite frankly there is plenty of blame to go around. Ultimately it may fall into the hands of consumers if there is to be any change at all. Attitudes about diesels like Shotts' ("stinky, dirty, noisy, etc..") will have to change if there is any hope for the diesel to gain favor in the USA !!

 

[Atticus]

Atticus, you are very correct in saying that there is no incentive for "big oil" to change anything. Their record profits surely won't be fed into producing any new refineries..Speaking of which, when was the last new refinery built ?? 1973 ??!! Quite frankly there is plenty of blame to go around. Ultimately it may fall into the hands of consumers if there is to be any change at all. Views about diesels like Shotts "stinky, dirty, noisy, etc.." will have to change if there is any hope for the diesel to gain favor in the USA !!

I agree. Also, I think it's important to start looking at other forms of energy. But, in the meantime, there's no real good reason for gas to be as expensive as it is. One of the problems with gas is that it is really only regulated "one way," that is, it is taxed. There's no effective regulation in terms of keeping prices down. Even milk is subsidized to some degree. Gas, apparently, is not.

I don't know a lot about this industry. I would love for someone who works in the energy business to post up and explain why gas costs what it does, and what steps could be implemented to create lower prices. I know that unrest in Nigeria is affecting a large source of our crude.

 

[zmw100]

From what I saw over a cummins website and hino is that both engine makers are on the same page. The only engine that really stands out at cummins is the Ram 6.7 but that is tuned for marketing purposes.

I have no doubt that Toyota can pump out a diesel that of equivilent size, power and reliablity as on other American diesel.
Toyota has been making diesels since the 50's and the current diesel in the Land Cruiser is impressive make 520 lb from a 4.5.



The argument about DOHC vs Pushrod died back in the 90's.



I still don't understand why you are not going to buy a diesel Land Cruiser because it can't replace you 20k work truck. This just does not make any sense.

You either have a comprehension problem, or are dipping in the KoolAid w/o knowing what flavor it is... My entire response was crafted around Dougal's statement of Toyota going head to head with cummins.... that's it.. I am not negating that toyota could build a fine diesel, or that they have access to manufacturers that can make a medium duty diesel... I am purely saying that is NOT their goal and is NOT their market. You wanted to start the pissing competition about cummins vs toyota - one's an apple, the other is a loquat....

I wouldn't buy a diesel LC to tow 20k lbs, I would buy a diesel LC to replace my current gasser 100 - but I make no bones about the fact that it is not a truck that i'd use to haul... I Would buy a V10 TDI toureg too - even with all their quality issues because i f'in love diesel's and turbos - period... i'd rather drive a CRAPPY diesel than a good gasser ...

I'm gonna let the pushrod DOHC comment go - because it's clear you are much more concerned with new technology than technology that works - pushrod v8's, old or not - produce prodigous amounts of torque, weigh less, and are often as efficient if not MORE efficient than "modern" DOHC engines... new != better... There are some fantastic DOHC engines, just as there are STILL Fantastic pushrod engines....

Don't even get me going on gas prices.... my best friends wife works for Valero here in San Antonio, TX - they are getting STUPID bonuses because gas is going so high and company profits are through the roof - and when i say stupid, I'm not talking like 10-15%, I'm talking 50-80% or nearly doubling of their salaries in a quarter.... Valero put out an internal memo nearly 2 years ago discussing the plan to move gas prices upward to the 4$/gallon mark, and now we're there....

The joke of it all is that they are claiming supply/demand economics as the reason for the raise in gas prices, but the fact is that the US has more reserve gas now than it ever has had in it's history...

Now with all of that said, the fed and tree huggers are no help - there was a 35c price hike in one week last year as a result of the oil companies being forced to add new additives and cleansers to fuel - Valero had to go back and add these additives to fuel that was already manufacturerd... the result, about a 40% loss in volume because of the evaportion created by re structuring the fuel...

If you want someone to blame, point the finger both at the oil companies and the EPA who make rediculous policy decisions w/o any concern as to the economic outcome on the american populous.

Diesel is even worse... Diesel is basically a WASTE product it's the throw away from the creation of regular gas - at least it used to be, now it's been so regulated to death because Al Gore is so worried about global warming (even though science states the globe has COOLED 10 years in a row) that it has to be refined to the point it's almost edible and could be used to cook with...

consider me bitter - I get to write off almost all of my fuel every year, every single gallon - and I'm still bitter, I really do feel sorry for normal families who have to live so far outside of town to be able to afford a reasonable home for them and their family and then have to drive 30-40 miles each way to a job that pays 10$/hr (like the new Toyota plant in San Anotnio, 30 miles from anything useful) - The price of gas isn't hurting my budget, it could be 10$/gallon and I'm still buying and uncle sam is still paying me back every dollar for it - but for THAT guy, it means more work hours, less time with his family and possibly in extreme situations loss of homes, inability to pay other bills...

-Z

 

[Dougal]

the Hino engines would be a true medium duty work engine, I can't knock that - and frankly I don't have enough knowledge about either of them to compare them to cummins, the Hino 6 cyl is a similar design to the cummins, Common rail, 6 cyl inline, loads of torque - but honestly from the spec's it seems pretty under powered... 8L of diesel 6cyl lovin and it only produces 220hp and 520ft/lb - I'm sure it could be tuned for a fair bit more though...

So far you're the only rational argument for a decent diesel offering in a toyota truck - the fact still remains though that they are looking using the 4.5L twin turbo...

I also don't think any of the daihatsu engines are an option as it appears 16L is the low end, lol perhaps a 4L 1 cylinder model?

-Z

The japanese (Hino, Isuzu etc) have had many engines in a similar size/power bracket to the original cummins 6BT's. Knowing how the japanese work I'm guessing those engines probably began life as a re-engineered cummins.

But the big difference is the US has a huge market for big diesel pickups, the owners of these vehicles have a great time winding them up to truely silly power levels so what the cummins engines are capable of is well and truely understood.

In Japan and the rest of the world, these engines are fitted to cab over trucks at around 6 ton capacity. This isn't the market for aftermarket tweaks so information on cranking the snot out of japanese truck engines just isn't out there.
It's not because the engines can't take it, it's because it hasn't been done and publicised.

It's the massive amount of R&D which has been done by the US pickup owners which has given cummins it's very solid foothold. As we all know (even those who argue otherwise) Toyota/Hino/Daihatsu don't currently offer an engine suitable to fit the Tundra and compete in this market. It'll be very interesting to see what they do offer when they take the plunge.

 

[Tapage]

Toyota sure made a huge research of the USA market before start thinking in FJC and they do it perfect, now they have goal ..

But thinking in a 1ton truck .. they can do . ? who knows . the point is if they develop a engine for a 1ton truck that mate the Toyota standards, pass emisions, be reliable and have a tons of power .. it gonna cost big $$$$$$$$ ..

And they gooing to use this engine only for one plataform . ? naaaaaaaaa

 

[twstrchasr]

If you want someone to blame, point the finger both at the oil companies and the EPA who make rediculous policy decisions w/o any concern as to the economic outcome on the american populous.

Diesel is even worse... Diesel is basically a WASTE product it's the throw away from the creation of regular gas - at least it used to be, now it's been so regulated to death because Al Gore is so worried about global warming (even though science states the globe has COOLED 10 years in a row) that it has to be refined to the point it's almost edible and could be used to cook with...

consider me bitter - I get to write off almost all of my fuel every year, every single gallon - and I'm still bitter, I really do feel sorry for normal families who have to live so far outside of town to be able to afford a reasonable home for them and their family and then have to drive 30-40 miles each way to a job that pays 10$/hr (like the new Toyota plant in San Anotnio, 30 miles from anything useful).

-Z

Excellent points, you are right on. I'm in W Texas and just a bit ago I saw diesel at $4.15. That's absurd !! I'm curious though, what are your reasons for potentially wanting a diesel LC ? Mileage vs gas? Hell, diesel costs MORE than premium. I would think the cost of diesel as opposed to gas would negate any MPG advantage. Operating costs ? I really do want to know what are the advantages a diesel LC would have over the gasser here in the US ?

Thought this was an interesting tidbit:

Ford Motor Co. will outfit a variety of pickups, vans and sport/utility vehicles with a diesel engine the company is developing.

Details about the 4.4-liter, turbocharged V-8 were leaked to the Internet after being revealed at a dealer show this month in Las Vegas.

Ford had confirmed that a new diesel would be installed in the F-150 pickup and Expedition sport/utility vehicle starting in 2010. But Ford and Lincoln-Mercury dealers at the show learned that the engine also will be used in the Lincoln Navigator sport/utility vehicle and Ford E-series vans and in the Super Duty version of the F-series pickup. Ford's new diesel, designed in-house, likely will be made at Ford's Chihuahua, Mexico, engine plant.

At the dealer show, held at the Bellagio Hotel, dealers saw a placard comparing the engine's performance with that of the current 5.4-liter gasoline engine.

The new diesel, which is closely related to the 3.6-liter turbodiesel used in European Land Rovers and Jaguars, delivers 9 percent more power than the 5.4-liter gasoline engine and 15 percent more torque. The new diesel has about the same 0 to 60 mph acceleration but gets 20 percent better fuel economy.

 

[zmw100]

My reasoning behind wanting a diesel to be REALLY honest is the absurd ease they are modified, the 100 I own is grossly underpowered and even the 200, while much better could stand to have another 200hp and 300ft/lb

However with that said, if you take a look at other diesel vehicles - like the toureg - the diesel vehicles hold their value considerably longer and trend to have LESS problems.... Over all their gas mileage is 30-50% higher than the equivelent gasser....

I'll be really honest with you though, in America Diesel engines are often over priced, if you continue on with the Dodge example, the 6.7L cummins is a 6k$ premium, and even at the unloaded MPG of 22 (what i get with a chipped truck running 35" MTs) , you'd be better off buying the Hemi for 6k$ less and getting 14mpg at least until you get to about 98K miles - if you drive like most people and only get 17-18mpg it would take over 315k miles to recoupe the cost on gas alone - Now that's not including the change in maintenance intervals and and what not but over all assuming current gas prices (3.50/gal for regular and 4.15 for diesel) if you buy a 2500 cummins over a 2500 hemi at 309K miles you would break even... Again this accounts for nothing else other than the premium in cost - the retail resell value alone allows you to recoupe a lot of that value with in a year a two...

Over all it's a terrible decision to buy a diesel car/truck right now, but the same can be said for hybrid... a loaded prius is nearly 31k$ - a loaded corolla, with more room is about 20 if you assume 28mpg for the corolla, and 48 for the prius you have to drive 212000 miles to get the money back...

There are some vendors that are a little bit less drastic, buying a VW TDI versus an equivelently equipped JEtta or Golf is only about a 1500-2000$ premium which you can recoupe in 78k miles, but even then - most cars in America are bought and sold in 30K mile cycles

There are only 3 good reasons to buy hybrids or diesels right now

1. They lose value slower... This means you must keep the vehicle beyond the initial depreciation cycle.
2. You actually care about the environment and can afford to basically throw the money at the problem
3. you NEED the function of the diesel engine, which means you need the power and torque provided.

it certainly is not a good economic decision or a wise financial planning decision for a short term purchase...

Sorry for the windy reply...

-Z

 

[twstrchasr]

Not long winded at all. Thanx, that's really what I was wanting to hear. I kind of had already figured out that for a short term ownership a diesel isn't a very wise purchase, given the price premium of the motor itself and then the absurd price premium for the diesel fuel. Don't feel ashamed to say the performance upgrade potential is a big plus for you. I like them as well !!

 

[Grolar]

My reasoning behind wanting a diesel to be REALLY honest is the absurd ease they are modified, the 100 I own is grossly underpowered and even the 200, while much better could stand to have another 200hp and 300ft/lb

However with that said, if you take a look at other diesel vehicles - like the toureg - the diesel vehicles hold their value considerably longer and trend to have LESS problems.... Over all their gas mileage is 30-50% higher than the equivelent gasser....

I'll be really honest with you though, in America Diesel engines are often over priced, if you continue on with the Dodge example, the 6.7L cummins is a 6k$ premium, and even at the unloaded MPG of 22 (what i get with a chipped truck running 35" MTs) , you'd be better off buying the Hemi for 6k$ less and getting 14mpg at least until you get to about 98K miles - if you drive like most people and only get 17-18mpg it would take over 315k miles to recoupe the cost on gas alone - Now that's not including the change in maintenance intervals and and what not but over all assuming current gas prices (3.50/gal for regular and 4.15 for diesel) if you buy a 2500 cummins over a 2500 hemi at 309K miles you would break even... Again this accounts for nothing else other than the premium in cost - the retail resell value alone allows you to recoupe a lot of that value with in a year a two...

Over all it's a terrible decision to buy a diesel car/truck right now, but the same can be said for hybrid... a loaded prius is nearly 31k$ - a loaded corolla, with more room is about 20 if you assume 28mpg for the corolla, and 48 for the prius you have to drive 212000 miles to get the money back...

There are some vendors that are a little bit less drastic, buying a VW TDI versus an equivelently equipped JEtta or Golf is only about a 1500-2000$ premium which you can recoupe in 78k miles, but even then - most cars in America are bought and sold in 30K mile cycles

There are only 3 good reasons to buy hybrids or diesels right now

1. They lose value slower... This means you must keep the vehicle beyond the initial depreciation cycle.
2. You actually care about the environment and can afford to basically throw the money at the problem
3. you NEED the function of the diesel engine, which means you need the power and torque provided.

it certainly is not a good economic decision or a wise financial planning decision for a short term purchase...

Sorry for the windy reply...
-Z

x2. That's very true. In Europe, lots of people buy Diesels because it's cheaper to fill up, but the price premium of the car itself means that you can't offset it before 60,000 miles in most cases. Only people driving more than 20,000 miles a year could find an economic reason to buy diesel.
I once did the math myself in the case of a LC 80 series. The difference between the price of a gasser and a Diesel 80 there represents at least 80,000 miles of gas. And that's in a country where you pay $9 for a gallon...

 

[Dougal]

I'll be really honest with you though, in America Diesel engines are often over priced, if you continue on with the Dodge example, the 6.7L cummins is a 6k$ premium, and even at the unloaded MPG of 22 (what i get with a chipped truck running 35" MTs) , you'd be better off buying the Hemi for 6k$ less and getting 14mpg at least until you get to about 98K miles - if you drive like most people and only get 17-18mpg it would take over 315k miles to recoupe the cost on gas alone - Now that's not including the change in maintenance intervals and and what not but over all assuming current gas prices (3.50/gal for regular and 4.15 for diesel) if you buy a 2500 cummins over a 2500 hemi at 309K miles you would break even... Again this accounts for nothing else other than the premium in cost - the retail resell value alone allows you to recoupe a lot of that value with in a year a two...

Good points, although there are a couple more factors which should probably be included.
The first one is diesel appears to be at an all time high relative to petrol (gasoline) across the globe. Here diesel is relatively 30% dearer than it ever has been and for no real reason.
They jacked the price at the north american winter claiming household heating oil was the reason. Yet it hasn't dropped.

The second one is diesel vehicles real world mpg is often far better than the EPA numbers that people use to do the calcs. I've heard a theory that the EPA numbers are deflated by 16% to account for the extra carbon content of diesel.
I do know that large petrol vehicles seldom get the claimed mpg.
In transient conditions like offroad and urban diesel consumption seems to often be half what a petrol version of the same vehicle gets.
The 100 series landcruiser in petrol drinks about 20-25L/100km around town. The same vehicle in diesel in the same environment drinks about 12.5-15l/100km.

Do you think a 2500 hemi would get 14mpg with those tyres on it? I knew one guy with an older 1500 and he got about 11 tops, 9 was more common.

Some UK motoring journo's drove a prius and a BMW 520d from london to I think Belgium. The BMW 520d beat the prius by 2mpg despite being bigger, heavier and the driver using the aircon and stereo.
If they'd used a comparable size BMW like the 118d it would have been very one sided.

 

[pagemaster]

The 100 series landcruiser in petrol drinks about 20-25L/100km around town.

I really don't know where they get these numbers. The 100 series in Canada (Lx470) achieved about 17.3ltrs per 100km. A little far off from 20-25.

 

[Dougal]

I really don't know where they get these numbers. The 100 series in Canada (Lx470) achieved about 17.3ltrs per 100km. A little far off from 20-25.

That is from people I know who own them. Both the LC and the lexus.
They're real world numbers, not an artificial prescribed test schedule like the japanese 10-15 test.

Owners of similar weight petrol vehicles all give similar results. Doesn't matter much whether it's a rangerover, discovery, nissan patrol or landcruiser, they're all around the 4-5 km/l mark in stop and go traffic.

 

[madams557]

Thought I'd add this since I saw it this morning.
Straightline - Toyota Tundra diesel rumors

 

[Tapage]

Thought I'd add this since I saw it this morning.
Straightline - Toyota Tundra diesel rumors

That make sense .. anycase Toyota recently release 1KD-FTV / 1VD-FTV and the new 5.7 so why don't use those already developed engines for realistic diesel options in USA ..

Maybe the same 5.7 block with the 1VD-FTV tecnologies over the head to make it function with plenty of power !