That may be, but - if it were me and I was designing a rig that I was advertising as a cross between an FJ and a Land Cruiser and that I was comparing to both the Hummer H3 and the Jeep Mangler and that I had shown off at all off-road shows and that I had made as heavy as it is and I took this rig to Ojai, Moab, Big Bear and drove it on not-particularly-easy trails and if I came up with the idea of having Trail Teams crisscross America showing people how to off-road and how capable the machine was off pavement - well, I'd be leaning towards a diesel; hybrids (at this time) don't have the power and torque to go where the current FJC can go.roosterdo said:
Diesel in an FJ Cruiser?
- Thread starter vespadaddy
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FJCruiserOwnersGroup said:
Actually, Toyota is due to release a Lexus with a v-8 hybrid. And apparently the Durango is going to come with a hybrid version of the 5.7 liter v8 hemi. So a hybrid can have plenty of power. I know the Durango is expected to get 25% better mileage as a hybrid. So if the FJ get 20 mpg (best case) and you add 25%, then you get 25 mpg. Not bad. Worth the cost of the hybrid addition? I don't know.
20k miles a year at 20 mpg = 1000 gallons
20k miles a year at 25 mpg = 800 gallons
over a 5 year period that is a 1000 gallon difference. If gas is $3 per gallon, a $3000 difference. $5 per gallon, $5000. How much more is the hybrid version going to cost? Will you finance that cost? What else do you have to give up to get the hybrid? Can you mod it as much? reliability? weight? space?
If you ran those same numbers at 16 mpg and a 25% increase to 20 mpg, the difference is more. 1250 gallons over 5 years.
How long are you going to keep it? How many miles will you put on it? Highway mileage doesn't improve much with a hybrid, if any. Don't know what it would do for mileage off road, maybe a small improvement?
I know I would rather have the diesel!
Count me in for the diesel as well 
What makes hybrid attractive offroad is that it's capable of producing 100% of avail torque instantly. It doesn't have to rev to do it. That's better than petrol or diesel for crawling
the best would be a diesel-hybrid. I heard that is going to be the future of cars here. If they can make something to work in trucks, it would be interesting.
I still like the simplicity and reliability of diesel. The new diesels look pretty good to me, wish we had them.
frank, just a guess but I think a hybrid would get incredible mpg's offroad b/c that is where the mpg advantage comes in (stop n go, slow speed).
the best would be a diesel-hybrid. I heard that is going to be the future of cars here. If they can make something to work in trucks, it would be interesting.
I still like the simplicity and reliability of diesel. The new diesels look pretty good to me, wish we had them.
frank, just a guess but I think a hybrid would get incredible mpg's offroad b/c that is where the mpg advantage comes in (stop n go, slow speed).
I think maybe offroad might be too slow, but I have no clue about this stuff... my thoughts are just that I would think you would get a lot more electricity from decelerating from 30kmh like in a city than 3 kmh offroad
Well, first forgive me for being a noob and intruding on this conversation, but I happen to know a little bit about hybrids (but only a little bit)...
Basically the way a hybrid works is that there are two engines under the hood (a gas/diesel, and an electric). The drive train is "hybrid" because the computer controlling the engines can choose to either use the electric only, the gas only, or any combination of the two. For speeds under about 15mph (depending on the weight of the vehicle) the electric is the only engine used (pretty scary to be doing 15 and not hear any engine noise), for above 15 (again depending on size/weight) the gas engine kicks on along with the electric engine. If the gas engine's power is not being totally used to turn the wheels, fan, etc., the extra power goes into recharging the battery. I am not sure when the gas engine takes over totally (I think 30ish), but that is the general way it works (different for different systems of course). Also, when you hit the brakes to slow down, some of that energy is harnessed to charge the battery again (regenerative braking). So, yes, a hybrid would be sweet on the trails, and a diesel/electic hybrid even sweeter...believe it.
Thanks for listening to a lowly noob, and if anyone has a decent looking, strong running fj40 for sale, I am looking for a "learner vehicle" to break my cruiser cherry on...
Basically the way a hybrid works is that there are two engines under the hood (a gas/diesel, and an electric). The drive train is "hybrid" because the computer controlling the engines can choose to either use the electric only, the gas only, or any combination of the two. For speeds under about 15mph (depending on the weight of the vehicle) the electric is the only engine used (pretty scary to be doing 15 and not hear any engine noise), for above 15 (again depending on size/weight) the gas engine kicks on along with the electric engine. If the gas engine's power is not being totally used to turn the wheels, fan, etc., the extra power goes into recharging the battery. I am not sure when the gas engine takes over totally (I think 30ish), but that is the general way it works (different for different systems of course). Also, when you hit the brakes to slow down, some of that energy is harnessed to charge the battery again (regenerative braking). So, yes, a hybrid would be sweet on the trails, and a diesel/electic hybrid even sweeter...believe it.
Thanks for listening to a lowly noob, and if anyone has a decent looking, strong running fj40 for sale, I am looking for a "learner vehicle" to break my cruiser cherry on...
Scooterpilot said:
We've already got it in Texas, as all Diesel now sold in Texas East of I-45 must be ULSD. I work for a petroleum additives company that produces lubricity improver for use in ULSD ( ultra low Sulfur = low lubricity/high friction without lubricity additives).
If gas/electric was better than diesel/electric, you'd have 50,000 railroad locomotives using 87 octane rather than No. 1 diesel. If gas was wiser than diesel, several million tractor/trailers would be using 87 octane rather than No. 1 diesel.
Wake up folks. Get off the gas . . . .
Wake up folks. Get off the gas . . . .
There are downsides to diesel, for instance, trains (2-stroke diesels) and tractors don't often go on 5 minute trips to the shopping market. However, the biggest reason I'd prefer a diesel to a hybrid is that I don't do much city driving, but a lot of highway driving. On the highway, hydribs really don't have an advantage, especially on larger vehicles. From what I've seen, hybrid buses and commercial trucks get WORSE mileage on the highway than a standard truck or bus would.
The second downside to a hybrid is that the EPA fuel specs on them are derived with all accessories off (i.e. no heat, AC, inverter, radio, etc). Since hybrids get their best mileage when they can run solely on the electric, it hurts the mileage when you have accessories on since that necessitates the engine to be running as well.
I found an article by USA Today or something similar where they took a Prius up against a VW TDI on a long distance drive and the VW got better mileage than the Prius. Not by a whole lot, but there are a lot of articles talking about Hybrids only getting 60% of the EPA mileage, whereas the diesels have been getting much closer to what's advertised.
The second downside to a hybrid is that the EPA fuel specs on them are derived with all accessories off (i.e. no heat, AC, inverter, radio, etc). Since hybrids get their best mileage when they can run solely on the electric, it hurts the mileage when you have accessories on since that necessitates the engine to be running as well.
I found an article by USA Today or something similar where they took a Prius up against a VW TDI on a long distance drive and the VW got better mileage than the Prius. Not by a whole lot, but there are a lot of articles talking about Hybrids only getting 60% of the EPA mileage, whereas the diesels have been getting much closer to what's advertised.
Pete483 said:
But I think the ecological and inner city advantages would be helpful in this case right?
Thus, if you have a diesel-hybrid car, you get the benefit of open road mpgs as well as inner city electric economy.
Which is why Toyota markets the hybrid as a ecological and performance (lexus) powerplant that happens to get great mpgs.
Yes I would prefer diesel choices (I still kick myself for not getting a Jetta TDI a few yrs ago) but a diesel-hybrid would be perfect for heavy commutes, outperform the diesel in mpgs on the inner city gridlock, as well as be clean- PZEV & ZEV instead of diesel particulates into the air.
For the type of driving that I do, I'd like a good CR Diesel car (like the Jetta TDI) made by Toyota- like a Scion XB Diesel, Camry Diesel, etc.
Basically, give us the Euro spec so we aren't ancient anymore.
I agree that a diesel-hybrid would probably yield better mileage in city driving and would be more or less identical on the highway depending on the diesel (whether they were the same), but it might not be cost effective. Being that hybrids are more expensive than regular gas engines and diesels are also more expensive than regular gas engines, you're looking at a significant cost increase.
I've been seriously thinking about selling my 80 in the next couple years depending what happens in the domestic diesel market. I ran a spreadsheet today looking at fuel savings of gas and diesel. Depending on fuel prices and mileage of the vehicle, I found that over 10 years a diesel should cost somewhere between $10,000 to $25,000 less to operate, making it a financially wise decision to invest in a slightly more expensive diesel vehicle. I'd expect a diesel Toyota to run $3-5 thousand more than gas models based on other diesels.
However, a hybrid Highlander starts about $9 thousand more than a gas version. If a diesel hybrid cost similarly, it might be over a $12 thousand difference.
Additionally, I am somewhat concerned about the long term durability of hybrids. While properly maintained diesels (and even not so properly maintained ones) are known for longevity, that remains to be seen with hybrids.
Since I don't live in an urban area, it doesn't make sense to me to possibly negate any net savings by spending more on a diesel-hybrid. However, I do agree that from a purely fuel-effeciency view point, a diesel-hybrid, shoot, make it one using flywheel energy storage (250 mpg plug-in hybrid), would be superior. In the short term, I'm probably going to go diesel on my next Toyota (should Toyota choose to cooperate).
I've been seriously thinking about selling my 80 in the next couple years depending what happens in the domestic diesel market. I ran a spreadsheet today looking at fuel savings of gas and diesel. Depending on fuel prices and mileage of the vehicle, I found that over 10 years a diesel should cost somewhere between $10,000 to $25,000 less to operate, making it a financially wise decision to invest in a slightly more expensive diesel vehicle. I'd expect a diesel Toyota to run $3-5 thousand more than gas models based on other diesels.
However, a hybrid Highlander starts about $9 thousand more than a gas version. If a diesel hybrid cost similarly, it might be over a $12 thousand difference.
Additionally, I am somewhat concerned about the long term durability of hybrids. While properly maintained diesels (and even not so properly maintained ones) are known for longevity, that remains to be seen with hybrids.
Since I don't live in an urban area, it doesn't make sense to me to possibly negate any net savings by spending more on a diesel-hybrid. However, I do agree that from a purely fuel-effeciency view point, a diesel-hybrid, shoot, make it one using flywheel energy storage (250 mpg plug-in hybrid), would be superior. In the short term, I'm probably going to go diesel on my next Toyota (should Toyota choose to cooperate).
I agree, I want a clean diesel. regular, reliable, bulletproof, 60mpg clean diesel sedan.
I think the hybrid diesel is attractive for the overall pkg. -torque, ecological impact, mpg's. Yes, I also question the long term reliability but Toyota has been great w/ development and they are great with electricals on cars so far.
Now if Lucas & the Brits start making hybrids.... holy crap:whoops: electrical&British don't mix!
I think the hybrid diesel is attractive for the overall pkg. -torque, ecological impact, mpg's. Yes, I also question the long term reliability but Toyota has been great w/ development and they are great with electricals on cars so far.
Now if Lucas & the Brits start making hybrids.... holy crap:whoops: electrical&British don't mix!
Well there was a problem with the priuses just shutting off completely at 60mph or so for a while there, I dont know the details though. Not a great sign for longevity. I'm sure in 5 yrs they'll have it all figured out though, toyota is good for that.
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FirstToy said:
Not really true anymore. IIRC, Lucas, Prince of Darkness has been making the fly by wire control systems for Airbus for years now.
After Lucas nearly killed the U.K. motorcycle industry, they seem to have bounced back.
vespadaddy said:
and look how well thats been working for them:
http://www.simradar.com/Feature/2315/Airbus_Crash_in_Airshow.html
For ultimate fuel economy a diesel hybrid would be the way to go, however I don't trust the hybrid technology yet for reliability, especially in an off road environment with mud, water, dust, cold, rocks, etc. Also a trail side repair on a hybrid......not something i would want to do.
However in the meantime, a FJC with a 6 cyl twin turbo diesel and a 6 spd trans would be AMAZING!! VTG turbos would be even better. But thats just my 2 cents.
However in the meantime, a FJC with a 6 cyl twin turbo diesel and a 6 spd trans would be AMAZING!! VTG turbos would be even better. But thats just my 2 cents.
